132 replies to this topic

[M R T]

Firing dual AC/20s (and Ultra AC/20s for that matter) are punished by a massive ghost heat penalty, presumably to discourage players doing 40 damage in one shot, thus reducing TTK. Firing 3 Gauss Rifles at the same time, doing 45 damage in one shot, was also disallowed, likely due to the same reason.

Since firing dual Heavy Gauss, doing 50 damage in a single shot, is allowed, does that mean that they will also remove the ghost heat penalty of dual AC/20s, and enable firing 3 normal gauss rifles at the same time again? Both of these combinations do less damage than dual Heavy Gauss, so it stands to reason that they should be allowed.

[Hit the Deck]

I do think PGI should increase the AC/20 GH to 3 and see what unfolds.

Some people have actually been asking this for some time even before the arrival of the "new" tech (of which the HGR is a member).

(c)GR firing limit can stay at 2.

[C E Dwyer]

Morte Nilsum, on 05 February 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Firing dual AC/20s (and Ultra AC/20s for that matter) are punished by a massive ghost heat penalty, presumably to discourage players doing 40 damage in one shot, thus reducing TTK. Firing 3 Gauss Rifles at the same time, doing 45 damage in one shot, was also disallowed, likely due to the same reason.

Since firing dual Heavy Gauss, doing 50 damage in a single shot, is allowed, does that mean that they will also remove the ghost heat penalty of dual AC/20s, and enable firing 3 normal gauss rifles at the same time again? Both of these combinations do less damage than dual Heavy Gauss, so it stands to reason that they should be allowed.

They should at least remove the AC20 Ghost heat

[Curccu]

Morte Nilsum, on 05 February 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Firing dual AC/20s (and Ultra AC/20s for that matter) are punished by a massive ghost heat penalty, presumably to discourage players doing 40 damage in one shot, thus reducing TTK. Firing 3 Gauss Rifles at the same time, doing 45 damage in one shot, was also disallowed, likely due to the same reason.

Since firing dual Heavy Gauss, doing 50 damage in a single shot, is allowed, does that mean that they will also remove the ghost heat penalty of dual AC/20s, and enable firing 3 normal gauss rifles at the same time again? Both of these combinations do less damage than dual Heavy Gauss, so it stands to reason that they should be allowed.

Normal gauss rifles have better range & velocity, no shake and so on... So I wouldn't increase that limit.
AC20 weapon GH should be at 3 and even that penalty shouldn't be that massive.

[El Bandito]

Morte Nilsum, on 05 February 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Firing dual AC/20s (and Ultra AC/20s for that matter) are punished by a massive ghost heat penalty, presumably to discourage players doing 40 damage in one shot, thus reducing TTK. Firing 3 Gauss Rifles at the same time, doing 45 damage in one shot, was also disallowed, likely due to the same reason.

Since firing dual Heavy Gauss, doing 50 damage in a single shot, is allowed, does that mean that they will also remove the ghost heat penalty of dual AC/20s, and enable firing 3 normal gauss rifles at the same time again? Both of these combinations do less damage than dual Heavy Gauss, so it stands to reason that they should be allowed.

AC20 doesn't need charge up, and doesn't explode, and does not require Std engine. It also has close to 25% more optimum range. IMO AC20 should retain the GH penalty but the heat penalty value should be reduced.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 February 2018 - 05:44 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

They should at least remove the AC20 Ghost heat

no they really shouldnt

AC20s arnt ghost heated at 1 because dual AC20 would be too good

AC20s are ghost heated at 1 to prevent you from combining dual AC20 with ppcs or lasers

they should only raise the limit on AC20 ghost heat if they link AC20 in the same group as other weapons or add energy draw.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 04:18 AM.

[Bohxim]

And allows you to run lfe or non lower actuated arms

[FupDup]

I'd rather bump up the base stats (namely velocity) on the AC/20 instead of trying to balance the gun on the assumption that you always take two of them. One by itself should be useful.

[El Bandito]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 04:14 AM, said:

no they really shouldnt

AC20s arnt ghost heated because dual AC20 would be too good

AC20s are ghost heated to prevent you from combining dual AC20 with ppcs

PGI can simply lower AC20 GH penalty and link it with PPCs. Voila.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'd rather bump up the base stats (namely velocity) on the AC/20 instead of trying to balance the gun on the assumption that you always take two of them. One by itself should be useful.

if youre only going to take one youre better off with a UAC20 though.

youd need to give the AC20 more than just velocity for it to compete with the UAC20

Quote

PGI can simply lower AC20 GH penalty and link it with PPCs. Voila.

just like with gauss/laser, people will just fire dual AC20s with lasers instead of ppcs

so that doesnt fix anything

the only way to fix the problem is with a system like energy draw where all weapons are effectively linked in the same ghost heat group with all other weapons.

and until then AC20s will stay ghost heat limited at 1. ghost heat has too many loopholes to allow otherwise.

the only way out of this mess is for PGI to bring back energy draw. which I think theyre gonna have to do in order to make solaris minimally viable.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 04:30 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

El Bandito, on 05 February 2018 - 04:17 AM, said:

PGI can simply lower AC20 GH penalty and link it with PPCs. Voila.

Right now if you don't want to dual AC/20, the next best thing is 1AC/20+2SPPC with greater heat but lower tonnage.

How do you want to link AC/20 and (ER/S/L)PPC to create GH?

[Sjorpha]

I think dual 20s would be fine on the IS side really, it's heavy and hot enough to run two IS 20s to be balanced without GH.

3 IS Gauss would be fine as well I think, there are so few mechs that can even run it and the builds are so awkward that it wouldn't be broken. Clan Gauss would be too good at 3 though, it's too easy and light to mount 3 gauss on clan assault mechs and still take lasers, stuff like KDK3 with 3 gauss and 4 meds would be too good.

Heavy gauss is fine as is now, big enough investment and low enough optimal range to not break anything, still worse than clan dual gauss + vomit. IMO the sligth optimal range increase put it in a pretty much perfect place as the the IS counterpart to clan gaussvomit, slightly weaker still but it's ok.

[Khobai]

Quote

How do you want to link AC/20 and (ER/S/L)PPC to create GH?

youd have to link AC20, all ppcs, and all lasers in the same group

but if youre gonna start doing crap like that you might as well just implement full blown energy draw

Quote

I think dual 20s would be fine on the IS side really, it's heavy and hot enough to run two IS 20s to be balanced without GH.

3 IS Gauss would be fine as well I think,

nope

the problem isnt dual AC20 or triple gauss by themselves

the problem is when you combine those combinations with other weapons like lasers

triple gauss + 6 medium lasers would not be fine (even dual gauss + 6 lasers isnt fine)

dual AC20 + 6 medium lasers would also not be fine

its the same ghost heat loophole that deathstrike abuses. that loophole needs to be closed.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 04:41 AM.

[El Bandito]

Hit the Deck, on 05 February 2018 - 04:30 AM, said:

Right now if you don't want to dual AC/20, the next best thing is 1AC/20+2SPPC with greater heat but lower tonnage.

How do you want to link AC/20 and (ER/S/L)PPC to create GH?

Valid point. Let me think on that. Obviously we do not want PPFLD to become too powerful but we also do not want to limit builds even more.

[The Basilisk]

Morte Nilsum, on 05 February 2018 - 03:40 AM, said:

Firing dual AC/20s (and Ultra AC/20s for that matter) are punished by a massive ghost heat penalty, presumably to discourage players doing 40 damage in one shot, thus reducing TTK. Firing 3 Gauss Rifles at the same time, doing 45 damage in one shot, was also disallowed, likely due to the same reason.

Since firing dual Heavy Gauss, doing 50 damage in a single shot, is allowed, does that mean that they will also remove the ghost heat penalty of dual AC/20s, and enable firing 3 normal gauss rifles at the same time again? Both of these combinations do less damage than dual Heavy Gauss, so it stands to reason that they should be allowed.

Why should they do such a stupid thing...there is no downside to firing AC20 as there is with Gauss rifles.

The firing of standart gauss was limited to two rifles at once due to the severe consequences a single Hit with more than two rifles could have for mediums and smal mechs...not to speak of all the headshots.
You still could fire 3 or four rifles from an annihilator or dire from 1km and insta kill most medium or light mechs...why would you want that ?

Same thin goes for AC20. Hit a slightly damaged griffin or Stormcrow with dual AC20 and he will loose a torso or even go down when fielding XL...TTK is already too short.

The HGRs have a long charge time and bad convergence...so if you still got a problem with them....well ....

[Khobai]

well even dual HGR shouldnt be allowed to do 50 PPFLD

IMO they shouldve decreased the damage on HGR to 22 damage but increased its optimum and max range to 570m/1140m. removed the reticle shake. and ghost heated it at 1.

that wouldve made it more useful as a singleton weapon and reduced its effectiveness when fired in pairs.

the game just cant handle more than 35-40 PPFLD damage. its too punitive for medium mechs.

you have medium mechs that are as big as heavies or assaults, arnt particularly faster than most heavies, and have 30% to 50% less armor/structure. And most IS mediums have to use ISXL. Having huge PPFLD alphas punishes medium mechs way too much.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 05:00 AM.

[An Innocent Urbie]

all this talk about HGR and still LGR still a potato

edit: also my poor urbanmech has developed a phobia whenever it sees a Cyclops/Annihilator sporting 2x HGR LOL

Edited by An Innocent Urbie, 05 February 2018 - 04:59 AM.

[Hit the Deck]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 04:53 AM, said:

well even dual HGR shouldnt be allowed to do 50 PPFLD

IMO they shouldve decreased the damage on HGR to 22 damage but increased its optimum and max range to 570m/1140m. removed the reticle shake. and ghost heated it at 1.

that wouldve made it more useful as a singleton weapon and reduced its effectiveness when fired in pairs.

the game just cant handle more than 35-40 PPFLD damage. its too punitive for medium mechs.

I argue that it's fine for 220m-50pts-PPFLD-dual-HGRs to exist because only the biggest and slow 'Mechs can do it.

Massed, I can't comment on its state of balance because I don't play coordinated drops.

[Khobai]

Quote

I argue that it's fine for 220m-50pts-PPFLD-dual-HGRs to exist because only the biggest and slow 'Mechs can do it.

its fine if everyone else is playing big slow mechs too

the problem is it makes people not wanna play mediums. and mediums already have enough strikes against them as is.

[M R T]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 04:38 AM, said:

nope

the problem isnt dual AC20 or triple gauss by themselves

the problem is when you combine those combinations with other weapons like lasers

triple gauss + 6 medium lasers would not be fine (even dual gauss + 6 lasers isnt fine)

dual AC20 + 6 medium lasers would also not be fine

its the same ghost heat loophole that deathstrike abuses. that loophole needs to be closed.

Throwing an idea out here, might be stupid, but just something that occurred to me. Would it at all be possible, or reasonable to limit not by weapon type, but rather by damage output?

Set the cap at for instance 40 or 50 PPFLD, and then limit (with GH or whatever) for every point of damage above the cap. That way you close all loopholes for any combinations, since it's not the weapon that sets the limit, it's the damage output.

There needs to be exceptions for splash damage though. Hmmm, just a thought.