132 replies to this topic

[Metus regem]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 February 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

Oh no, the AC/20 might be worth something if we lower ghost heat on it. Head for the hills!

Yea, it's always bugged me that the King Crab has to either eat a ton of heat or chain fire their primary weapon system in MWO....

[CFC Conky]

Hello all,

As someone who drives around in a Sleipnir with dual HGR's, the thing is slow and get focused down often. Against players who have even a bit of situational awareness, it is not an impossibly deadly threat. I also run some mechs with dual AC/UAC 20's and they will still do tons of damage to one component when chain-fired a half second apart to avoid the ghost heat.

Sure, getting rid of ghost heat for the AC20 would be nice (duh), but I don't feel the game is broken without it.


Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[Water Bear]

El Bandito, on 05 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

It is very easy to deal with HGR mechs. Just shoot the ST, and warn your teammates.

Metus regem, on 05 February 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

Yup, or fight them at medium to long range... kind of easy to do as they are often slow.... Also flank and crit out their ST's....

I wish I could understand the HGR hysteria. Perhaps the recent patch caused people to use it for a change, and the solo Q meta has not currently shifted to correct. Still, you'd think the hordes of 2x UAC 10 + 2x UAC 5 boats out there would have already laid down a meta-correcting fussilade from 500+ meters...

[Seranov]

HGR is fun to use, and double HGR is even more fun. It's quite solid even out to ~400m, which means it works decently well in QP. It has no jamming or heat issues, unlike the MCII-B or the KDK-3. Obviously, it's slower and has various other drawbacks, but every mech and loadout has downsides.

[tortcat]

HG is fine where it is...hard to really compare the HG ( or any Gauss) to the AC as AC hs no charge up time and is insta fire whereas the Gauss's all have charge window.

I am all for limiting theGH a bit on AC...I think PGI goes a bit too far a times trying to "balance" ( de-funning at tims)

[Metus regem]

Water Bear, on 05 February 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

I wish I could understand the HGR hysteria. Perhaps the recent patch caused people to use it for a change, and the solo Q meta has not currently shifted to correct. Still, you'd think the hordes of 2x UAC 10 + 2x UAC 5 boats out there would have already laid down a meta-correcting fussilade from 500+ meters...

/shrug

I remember the days when the 6xUAC/5 Dire Wolf was called "OP!"... I found them very underwhelming, rolled their damage across my mech, close the gap, and made them eat medium to high PPFLD to a ST or CT to put them in their place...

HGR madness is no different, engage from beyond 400m, ignore them or flank and murder them as people don't think back armour is important... to pack dual HGR's a mech is giving up speed or armour, sometimes a combination of both. Figure out their weakness and capitalize on it, rather than coming to the boards and crying about it.

[CFC Conky]

Metus regem, on 05 February 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

...

HGR madness is no different, engage from beyond 400m, ignore them or flank and murder them as people don't think back armour is important... to pack dual HGR's a mech is giving up speed or armour, sometimes a combination of both. Figure out their weakness and capitalize on it, rather than coming to the boards and crying about it.

Exactly.

[Rusharn]

I think the AC/20, UAC/20 and the Clan UAC/20 should have the ghost heat at 2 removed. The UAC/s have a jam chance that helps balance out the high damage, as well as not being particularly cool running. The AC/20 is large heavy with ammo that can explode. I think the HGR is fine, their are so few mechs that can mount them and you can't really crit shield them.

[HGAK47]

Hey hey you be careful what you do to my trust ac20`s. Might not be on everyones santas wish list but im pretty sure my Yen Lo has one growing off its arm now its been there so long..... oh wait. It does! Wuut?

Oh and has anyone else been stupid enough to run a single heavy gauss on things like medium mechs? It actually kinda works if youre good... sometimes ;-)

Edited by HGAK47, 05 February 2018 - 12:03 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Throwing an idea out here, might be stupid, but just something that occurred to me. Would it at all be possible, or reasonable to limit not by weapon type, but rather by damage output?

yes thats what energy draw does

Quote

I think everyone understands to not getting too close to big and slow 'mechs, particularly those packing HGRs.

it doesnt change the fact that 50 PPFLD shouldnt be allowed. there should be no exceptions.

if people could always avoid getting close, then HGR would be 100% useless, obviously that isnt the case.

especially when most mediums are forced to use close range weapons.

mediums cant take 50 damage hits. PPFLD fundamentally breaks the the armor system when it exceeds 35-40 damage. the armor system is balanced around the assumption of distributing damage to different locations, not getting hammered in one location for 50 damage.

theres a reason the game has a huge bias towards heavies and assaults. because most mediums are in a sad state. theyre scaled the same size as heavies or assaults, they dont have a speed or armor advantage, and they lack the weapons of heavies/assault. And the IS ones are forced to use ISXL. Allowing huge PPFLD alphas isnt helping that. Laser vomit isnt helping that either. even splat builds rip mediums apart.

Damage output needs to be much more limited. If ghost heat has to exist then it should at least exist in its evolved state of energy draw where all the loopholes and exploits are gone.

And implementing proper energy draw is the only way solaris 1v1 doesnt turn into complete 100% stupid.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 01:05 PM.

[R Valentine]

Water Bear, on 05 February 2018 - 10:04 AM, said:

I wish I could understand the HGR hysteria. Perhaps the recent patch caused people to use it for a change, and the solo Q meta has not currently shifted to correct. Still, you'd think the hordes of 2x UAC 10 + 2x UAC 5 boats out there would have already laid down a meta-correcting fussilade from 500+ meters...

HGR was never as bad as Deathstrike and it never will be. Deathstrike can do more damage at a further range while running faster with better hard point mounts than any mech that can run HGR. It even has jump jets.

[ANOM O MECH]

El Bandito, on 05 February 2018 - 04:17 AM, said:

PGI can simply lower AC20 GH penalty and link it with PPCs. Voila.

My opinion is you should be able to fire 2 ac20's without any ghost heat.

I use an ac20, two snubs on a Thanatos (on the rare occasion I feel like running hardmode mechs) and the due to range, cooldown it is far from being OP.

Short range ppfld doesn't have the same amount of scary long range does. The heat without any ghost heat in is already way up there. It is tough to play and involves hiding behind cover and teammates a great deal.

If they needed to link it to ppc's than fine.

We are already so limited by everything be nerfed, and we are already down the path of nerfing lasers by family.

So falling in line with gauss/ppc limits makes sense...well as much sense as firing a no heat weapon with something else magically creating enormous heat can.

[justcallme A S H]

FupDup, on 05 February 2018 - 04:15 AM, said:

I'd rather bump up the base stats (namely velocity) on the AC/20 instead of trying to balance the gun on the assumption that you always take two of them. One by itself should be useful.

At least some sense got spoken on the first page!

The main issue with HGR is... PGI did not listen.

They said they "listened to Comp Players" by extending the optimal range. What PGI omitted however was that those same players also said the Max Range should be reduced at the same time.

So what we got was only half of what was reccommended and right now, due to that, HGR is in a weird place. It's doing pretty crazy damage out to some pretty scary ranges for what it is.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 05 February 2018 - 01:15 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 12:49 PM, said:

theres a reason the game has a huge bias towards heavies and assaults. because most mediums are in a sad state. theyre scaled the same size as heavies or assaults, they dont have a speed or armor advantage, and they lack the weapons of heavies. And the IS ones are forced to use ISXL. Allowing huge PPFLD alphas isnt helping that. Laser vomit isnt helping that either. even splat builds rip mediums apart.

The reason for mediums being in sad state is the fact we have doubled HP on everything. You wouldnt need need deathstrikes and 70-ish alphas if 30 were enough to take out or at least open a side torso. Average medium can do 30 alpha.

But what we have is every medium having about 70+ hp in ST and naturally all the mechs who can't oneshot a component suck in comparison to those who can.

And that is also the reason for stomps. When almost no mech can influence the game by taking out important components fast, then the math kicks in and the team having HP advantage wins.

[justcallme A S H]

Kiran Yagami, on 05 February 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

HGR was never as bad as Deathstrike and it never will be. Deathstrike can do more damage at a further range while running faster with better hard point mounts than any mech that can run HGR. It even has jump jets.

It is not pinpoint.

It takes a full second to deal the deathstrike alpha due to the requirement of holding a laser burn.

[Khobai]

justcallme A S H, on 05 February 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

It is not pinpoint.

It takes a full second to deal the deathstrike alpha due to the requirement of holding a laser burn.

its sometimes pinpoint; if you can hold the lasers on the same location its pinpoint

which is fairly easy to do against garbage truck assaults that cant torso twist for crap

dual gauss + 6 lasers is another combination that shouldnt be allowed.

which is why we need something like energy draw implemented. energy draw would force you to fire the lasers completely separate from the gauss rather than being able to fire them slightly before the gauss. it would get rid of the stupid 70+ damage alphas and break the damage up into separate volleys that are less likely to hit the same location.

ghost heat is basically a flawed version of energy draw anyway, but with huge loopholes that dont apply to certain combinations of weapons. energy draw would close those loopholes.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 01:37 PM.

[R Valentine]

justcallme A S H, on 05 February 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

It is not pinpoint.

It takes a full second to deal the deathstrike alpha due to the requirement of holding a laser burn.

Yes, if you can't aim it's not pinpoint, but for those who can it's easily pinpoint. You can twist away from HGR before the cycle is complete too, but no HGR mech can put out 94 damage to a single component. In fact, no HGR can put out 94 damage period. Not to mention run faster, have more ammunition, shoot further, have jump jets, and all the other nice things clan mechs have.

[R Valentine]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 February 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

The reason for mediums being in sad state is the fact we have doubled HP on everything. You wouldnt need need deathstrikes and 70-ish alphas if 30 were enough to take out or at least open a side torso. Average medium can do 30 alpha.

But what we have is every medium having about 70+ hp in ST and naturally all the mechs who can't oneshot a component suck in comparison to those who can.

And that is also the reason for stomps. When almost no mech can influence the game by taking out important components fast, then the math kicks in and the team having HP advantage wins.

You don't need a 70+ alpha period, double HP or no. The problem is they allow combinations that lead to a 70+ alpha. The stupid part is only a few mechs can even do that, so all we get is the same mechs in every match. It's not uncommon for teams in group queue to have half the team piloting Deathstrike, or the Sleipnir, or some combination of the two because group queue doesn't care about weight balancing. 5 teams of two all piloting assaults? There isn't even variety in what mechs can pump out ridiculous damage. Either you can mount 2 HGR or you can't. Either you can mount 2 gauss + 6 lasers or you can't.

[InvictusLee]

Yeonne Greene, on 05 February 2018 - 09:42 AM, said:

Oh no, the AC/20 might be worth something if we lower ghost heat on it. Head for the hills!

tweet russ bro. I need your halp!

[Nema Nabojiv]

Kiran Yagami, on 05 February 2018 - 01:35 PM, said:

You don't need a 70+ alpha period, double HP or no.

If you dont want anyone to make a difference by shooting rather than by dying, then you dont of course.