132 replies to this topic

[R Valentine]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 February 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

If you dont want anyone to make a difference by shooting rather than by dying, then you dont of course.

Given that you missed the point of the post you quoted entirely, not gonna bother arguing with you. You couldn't even quote that sentence in context.

[Mole]

I dunno. I'd love a few of my 'mechs to be able to stop chainfiring their dual AC/20s but the reality of the matter is that there are only two 'mechs in the entire game that can even do dual HG. And that's the Annihilator and the Mauler. And because of the weapon's size the 'mech must be limited to a STD engine. Dual HG is a lot more difficult to run than dual AC/20s.

[Khobai]

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Oh no, the AC/20 might be worth something if we lower ghost heat on it. Head for the hills!

youre way too focused on the AC20 and not seeing the bigger picture.

dual AC20 on its own would be fine, but thats not what PGI is worried about. the reason PGI is keeping AC20s at ghost heat limit of 1 is to prevent combinations like dual AC20s + 6 medium lasers.

the only way you could increase the ghost heat limit on the AC20 would be if you also ghost heat linked it with PPCs/lasers/etc... which is basically energy draw.

energy draw set at a 40 PPFLD limit would allow dual AC20 but would prohibit dual AC20 + a bunch of lasers.

energy draw should obviously give spread weapons a higher max damage allowance though. probably around 60 damage for spread weapons depending on the weapon. but 40 should be the limit for PPFLD.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 02:06 PM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

dual AC20 on its own would be fine, but thats not what PGI is worried about. the reason PGI is keeping AC20s at ghost heat limit of 1 is to prevent combinations like dual AC20s + 6 medium lasers.

That train has already left. There are comparable alphas at greater range for almost a year now. No point holding back both the guns and a few mechs which can fit them

[Andi Nagasia]

i would like to see this as a test,
but if it did happen, AC20 would have to be tied to the PPC group to prevent 2AC20 +2SNPPC builds,

[Brain Cancer]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 04:53 AM, said:

well even dual HGR shouldnt be allowed to do 50 PPFLD

IMO they shouldve decreased the damage on HGR to 22 damage but increased its optimum and max range to 570m/1140m. removed the reticle shake. and ghost heated it at 1.

http://www.sarna.net...avy_Gauss_Rifle , basically.

[Khobai]

yes improved heavy gauss is more in the spirit of how heavy gauss should be. it should be a long range weapon not a short range weapon.

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That train has already left. There are comparable alphas at greater range for almost a year now. No point holding back both the guns and a few mechs which can fit them

so basically your argument is that broken combinations already exist, so rather than fixing them, we should use them as justification to add more broken weapon combinations to the game.

no lol. it makes much more sense just to fix whats already broken.

gauss/laser and laser vomit needs to be fixed. not used as a rationale to add other broken weapon combinations to the game.

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That train has already left.

it hasnt left entirely. we still have ghost heat afterall.

energy draw is just the next logical evolution of ghost heat

you cant circumvent energy draw as easily as you can ghost heat

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 03:37 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 February 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

i would like to see this as a test,
but if it did happen, AC20 would have to be tied to the PPC group to prevent 2AC20 +2SNPPC builds,

You're investing at least 46 tons in weapons alone, with minimal ammo and no extra heatsinks, for an alpha that is already lower than existing alphas. Like basically only the King Crab and Annihilator could make a reasonable build and it would be slow as hell and hot as hell. I don't really see the reason to worry that much.

[Wreckreation]

Don't know about all of the concerns with dual HGRs and Medium Mechs. The heaviest assaults are vulnerable from behind from just about any Medium or Light. Are we also going to make excuses in order for this to be addressed? Shouldn't Assaults be less vulnerable to being hit from behind? Shouldn't an Assault be able to turn faster than a Medium or Small Mech can circle it to be "fair"?
If a WWII battleship was limited to firing one 16" gun at a time what would be the point of having a battleship? If those 16" guns were fired on a lesser vessel, shouldn't there be heavy damage? The answer is yes. It's up to the lesser vessel to avoid them with its speed advantage and to rely on help from other vessels. Time and time again, I've seen lesser mechs go toe to toe with an assault and win. Sometimes it is due to the load-out, sometimes it's due to skill level differences. But I have to believe there are some instances where all of the tinkering with leveling the playing field moves the game too far away from the real world. When an Assault is packing superior fire power, it should be just that. Stand in front of it at your own peril.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 03:24 PM, said:

so basically your argument is that broken combinations already exist, so rather than fixing them, we should use them as justification to add more broken weapon combinations to the game.

Those combinations being broken is just your opinion. Mine is it is how it should have been done from day one - sufficient firepower translated in games won and lost by positioning and accurate shooting rather than murderballing, and every weightclass is viable because it can do sufficient damage to any other weightclass.

But anyway, yes, since the midrange already allows big alphas, brawling should catch up.

And face the thuth, nothing is going to happen with gaussvomit. Not after fafnir and blood asp were announced.

[Mcgral18]

justcallme A S H, on 05 February 2018 - 01:17 PM, said:

It is not pinpoint.

It takes a full second to deal the deathstrike alpha due to the requirement of holding a laser burn.

It is pinpoint, it's not frontloaded


Pinpoint means it CAN hit the same pixel
Frontloaded means it's not DoT (Gauss being FLD)
Lasers are not FLD, but they are pinpoint

[Formosa The God]

I would be happy with the ghost heat staying if they just reduced the number of rounds the CUAC/20 fired, my IS ones weigh more but just seem so much better :/

[InvictusLee]

Andi Nagasia, on 05 February 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

i would like to see this as a test,
but if it did happen, AC20 would have to be tied to the PPC group to prevent 2AC20 +2SNPPC builds,

why is that build so terrifying tho? Its only a 60 alpha with super short range.

[Y E O N N E]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 01:59 PM, said:

youre way too focused on the AC20 and not seeing the bigger picture.

dual AC20 on its own would be fine, but thats not what PGI is worried about. the reason PGI is keeping AC20s at ghost heat limit of 1 is to prevent combinations like dual AC20s + 6 medium lasers.

the only way you could increase the ghost heat limit on the AC20 would be if you also ghost heat linked it with PPCs/lasers/etc... which is basically energy draw.

energy draw set at a 40 PPFLD limit would allow dual AC20 but would prohibit dual AC20 + a bunch of lasers.

energy draw should obviously give spread weapons a higher max damage allowance though. probably around 60 damage for spread weapons depending on the weapon. but 40 should be the limit for PPFLD.

Incorrect.

I know you were probably giddy to get that zing in, but unfortunately for you it was premature. You forgot the second thing I said to you last time I laid into you:

You have a penchant for declaring gimmicky builds that do not and will not sway the state of the game "OP", in this casejust because they have an amount of PPFLD that exceeds your arbitrarily set limit of 40.

But, in your zeal to make the game play the way you want it to and not necessarily the way it needs to, you aren't considering the trade-offs. You are discounting the lack of mobility, the lack of cooling infrastructure, and the lack of flexibility. You have dedicated an entire build to operating between 0 and, at most, 400 meters. You have dedicated to poking with a very slow, very hot, very clumsy 'Mech in a range bracket where the enemy can be up in your grille within a few seconds, hammering you with SRMs, MGs, Flamers, and AC/20s of their own. So congratulations; you have a brawl-range 'Mech that can fire once, maybe twice, probably not even kill its target, and then it is dead. Direstar OP? Ha!

AC/40+2Snub, AC/40+2HPPC, AC40+ 6MedLas, all gimmicks. All on platforms that run, at most, low 60s with poor mounts, poor heat management, poor range, and poor geometry. HGauss is much more reliable and is not currently breaking the game. The worst thing that is going to happen with AC/40 coming back is that chassis like the Nightstar and King Crab might actually be decent enough at something to be worth considering in a few specific niches.

As for Energy Draw, I'm not willing to entertain any form of it that isn't based on lengthening cool-downs. I'm not interested in capping alphas, I am interested in curbing them with equitable penalties.

Formosa The God, on 05 February 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

I would be happy with the ghost heat staying if they just reduced the number of rounds the CUAC/20 fired, my IS ones weigh more but just seem so much better :/

It's a placebo, I promise.

TBQH, the range on the isUAC/20 is also garbage for what it is. It's not even supposed to be 270, it's supposed to be 300 (and the 10 is supposed to be 540), but instead of making standard ACs good PGI would rather make the UACs bad.

[Khobai]

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You have a penchant for declaring gimmicky builds that do not and will not sway the state of the game "OP",

yes its called being consistent

the current ghost heat system is an example of what happens when youre inconsistent and punish some weapon combinations but allow loopholes for other weapon combinations to be abused (i.e. punishing ppc/gauss but allowing laser/gauss)

for sake of consistency all PPFLD needs to be cap at the same amount regardless of whether its gimmicky or not

energy draw should cap all PPFLD weapons at around 40 damage. with higher allowances for spread weapons.

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As for Energy Draw, I'm not willing to entertain any form of it that isn't based on lengthening cool-downs. I'm not interested in capping alphas, I am interested in curbing them with equitable penalties.

if youre not interested in capping alphas youre part of the problem and not part of the solution

because the problem is uncapped alphas and the solution is capping them lol

curbing them with penalties is exactly what energy draw does.

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TBQH, the range on the isUAC/20 is also garbage for what it is. It's not even supposed to be 270, it's supposed to be 300 (and the 10 is supposed to be 540), but instead of making standard ACs good PGI would rather make the UACs bad.

its supposed to be 270m because PGI set it at 270m

where are you getting this 300m from? tabletop?

because tabletop also says ERPPCs are only supposed to be 690m not 810m, but in MWO theyre 810m

PGI has deliberately changed range stats on weapons for their own bizarre reasons.

they probably felt if the UAC20 outranged the AC20 there would be even less of a reason to use the AC20.

it would actually make the most sense to bump the AC20 upto 360m and leave the UAC20 at 270m. Then the regular AC20 would have a range advantage over the UAC20.

Edited by Khobai, 05 February 2018 - 07:20 PM.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

its supposed to be 270

where are you getting this 300 from

Sarna.

Though really, there are far more important things that the UAC/20 needs than a range boost. Even with its penalized range (compared to TT) it still eclipses the AC/20.

[MechaBattler]

They should reduce AC20 heat and raise velocity so it can be competitive as dual setup and single. Heavy gauss has many downsides to be run. I don't think we need to over buff AC20 to keep things level.

[Yosharian]

Khobai, on 05 February 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

if youre not interested in capping alphas youre part of the problem and not part of the solution

because the problem is uncapped alphas and the solution is capping them lol

curbing them with penalties is exactly what energy draw does.

Curbing alphas is one thing, but Energy Draw was an awful system.

[Khobai]

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Curbing alphas is one thing, but Energy Draw was an awful system.

so is ghost heat

energy draw is basically the same thing as ghost heat but without loopholes

and if were not getting rid of ghost heat id rather have a version of ghost heat that actually works

[The Lighthouse]

Like holy ****.




Holy god f***ing ****.




Is this thread real?



Just a several month ago, Clan had a setup that:

1) Do 50 pinpoint damage.
2) Pretty much all clan assaults with exception of EXE and GAR could mount.
3) With effective range of 700m+
4) Does make heat from two ppcs.

Compared to what IS have:

1) Do 50 pinpoint damage.
2) Only three IS assaults chassis, plus one hero Cyclops variant can equip it.
3) With effective range of 270m.
4) The mech only can use standard engine, not even light fusion engine.
5) No heat.


I must remind you before PGI made that build unusable, remarkably we had some sort of build variations even with that 50 pinpoint damage build. As of now it is all about laservomit and gaussvomit.


If anything needs to be changed, IS Heavy Gauss needs massive buffs.