105 replies to this topic

[R Valentine]

Nema Nabojiv, on 07 February 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ok, no problem. It wont be a porblem if we had a similarly quirked and sized clan mech then, right?

Given that the Parana is exponentially better than the urbie, you're just blowing smoke. You're trying to derail the issue by comparing non-like things. The Urbanmech is not that good. The Parana is amazing. Attempts to try to make things out to be balanced 0/10.

Back to the discussion at hand. I still say either lock clan MGs to a max use of 8 at a time and increase IS MG damage to compensate. That is the ONLY fair fix. IS MGs already weigh more, so the compensation for the damage upgrade has already been paid. Locking clan MGs to 8 makes it so IS MGs don't need a ridiculous damage upgrade to be comparable, like 2x.

[Black Ivan]

Bud Crue, on 07 February 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

A well played Cougar kills it with a 60 point alpha before the Urby can even close.

Which Cougar buildt is this please ?

[MechaBattler]

It doesn't seem unreasonable that IS MG types should get a buff. They weigh twice as much. Whether it be a tighter spread or more rate of fire. They should get something. It would hardly be game breaking.

[Bud Crue]

Black Ivan, on 07 February 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

Which Cougar buildt is this please ?

Craziest I've seen is 2HLL and 4HML.

[GX9900 Gundam X]

MACHINE
GUN
ARRAYS

this has already been brought up in another topic. It would disproportinately benefit the IS.

Edited by GX9900 Gundam X, 07 February 2018 - 01:30 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

- Double IS MG RoF

This still doubles the number of effective mgs on "non-boat" configurations that use mgs as side weaponry. Two IS mgs turn into an effective four mg setup where a Clan mech will still have only 2

=> IS becomes the "mg horror" on the low end of mg numbers

In addition to that the Ember - with its current 25% RoF quirk - becomes a machine with an effective number of 10 mgs that merely take up 4 crit slots at a weight of 2t ... a tonnage that provides only 8 mgs to either one of the clan based mg boats. Now instead of one very feeble (Piranha) and feeble (Mist Lynx) mg boat on Clan side you create an IS "mg boat" that when compared to the Crit Lynx looks like this:

- can easily run about 122.7 km/h before skill nodes which is already faster then any speed skilled Crit Lynx

- brings 4 small lasers with - based on the combat profile - negliable range disadvantage, far better heat management (2.0 heat efficency).

- brings the same 4 small lasers with shorter burn duration and significantly better cooldown which is kinda important in the movement heavy combar profile

- slightly lacks in the initial alpha damage of those 4 small laser when comparing against typical Crit Lynx armament of either er-small or heavy small

- is heat neutral with a heat efficency of 100% without any skill nodes where the Lynx - even with an additional heat sink that typically reduces its number of mgs down to 6 instead of 8 - by far is worse ...

- has an effective number of 10 mgs with 3t of ammo where the Crit Lynx then typically fields 6mgs with the same 3t ammo

- is less jump capable with 4 vs. 6 jump jets in the Lynx but certainly jumps

- brings way more armor to the fight than the Lynx in pretty much every zone

The comparison with the Piranha 1 doesn't look to be in favor of the clan mech either:

- Sure, the Piranha goes up to 24 km/h faster but in most cases only 16 km/h due to armor / ammo considerations.

- the Piranha has 3 small lasers max in that configuration that then run hotter and much slower or 3 micros that still run hotter but certainly don't out damage the Ember's four small lasers

- the Piranha has paper armor in comparison to that Ember and ...

- doesn't actually have more ammo for 12 mgs or must drop from 12 to 10 mgs in order to have 0,5 more ammo for the same number of effective mgs.

=> IS also takes the high end crown with a 2x RoF against both clan mg boats ...

And please don't try to throw a 8 mg ACH in the mix. That's a build that's even worse than either Crit Lynx and Piranha 1

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

Revert Clan MG spread nerfs

Which still wouldn't compensate on the low end with 1 to 4 mgs in IS mechs vs. Clan mechs with also just 1 to 4 mgs. And only on the high end the vunerable Pir-1 builds with 12 mgs could outperform a mg dedicated Ember. Same ...

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

- Normalise Crit %

... with normalized crit.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

- Normalise MG component HP

... which isn't much of a thing for either the Crit Lynx or the Piranha ... because the former loses his mg arms way before component HP ever becomes relevant and the latter is similarly pulverized before it loses mgs to crits that don't destroy the whole mech.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

Done

Doesn't actually sound to me like you've successfully "done" a proper balancing pass there.

[Der Geisterbaer]

GX9900 Gundam X, on 07 February 2018 - 01:29 PM, said:

MACHINE

GUN

ARRAYS

Considering that the canon Piranha 4 does have two machine gun arrays (one with lcmgs one with standard cmgs) that "solution" only "works" for the period of (less than) 1 year within lore: IS got arrays in 3068 ... clans in 3069. So ..

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 12:26 PM, said:

this has already been brought up in another topic. It would disproportinately benefit the IS.

... consider mg arrays on both sides of the fence in mwo and think of any Pir / Lynx variant that has 6 (or more ballistic) slots that can utilize mg arrays with 4 mgs per array at 0.5t per array. Doesn't sound like the most clever idea to me.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 07 February 2018 - 01:44 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

In addition to that the Ember - with its current 25% RoF quirk

So nuke the quirk. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

If your concern is "1 IS MG = 2 Clan MG = IS OP" then you must really hate Heavy Lasers, which are much the same thing, but larger instead of heavier.

So no, that's not a concern I share, since that difference already exists and seems to have been (mostly) accepted.

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

And please don't try to throw a 8 mg ACH in the mix. That's a build that's even worse than either Crit Lynx and Piranha 1

How about the much better 6 MG ACH with 2-3 HML + ECM?

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 07 February 2018 - 02:04 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Der Geisterbaer has a point about how every IS 'Mech with one ballistic hardpoint would get a buff. That being said:

1. IS have always had the ability to boat more MGs than Clans on 'Mechs heavier than 45 tons

2. That ability has counted for nothing and will still count for nothing due to the combined lack of range, speed, and burst for the classes. The only exception, really, is the JM6-DD, which would have an effective 12x MGs that can pair with a pair of ERPPC or SNPPC at a decent speed. There is potential for that to be too good. But Maulers and KGCs boating 12x MGs of firepower? Memes. Way too big, way too slow.

But this is all why I don't prefer a straight 2x RoF buff. IS MG boats are mostly slower and larger. I would gladly sacrifice some of the RoF bonus down to 1.5x for a bit more range so it complements the 'Mech better. We would have comparable IS MGs that play and interact with complementary equipment differently. That still leaves the LCT-1V and 3V at distinct disadvantages, but with HMGs the former would come close at 10 DPS with a small laser in the mix. Not too shabby, IMHO.

As for the Ember; with or without the 25% RoF quirk it is a bad 'Mech. It is large and has clumsy agility, which together makes it squishy. Add isXL to that mix. It can't maneuver behind Assaults like a Piranha or Locust, and it also can't aim the torso up or down to save its life. And I say that as somebody who can still make it work, but goddamn does it take way more effort to do so.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 07 February 2018 - 02:38 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

So nuke the quirk. Easy peasy, lemon squeezy.

Remember that you were the one who claimed that things were "done". Now you also want to get rid of the Ember's quirk.

But what does that actually change in my previously laid out comparisons?

The Crity Lynx still is overall weaker and the Piranha just barely excels at raw mg power.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

If your concern is "1 IS MG = 2 Clan MG = IS OP"

Funnily enough I didn't actually refer to that as being "OP", did I? My "concern" - if anything - is that your alleged solution just doesn't actually change anything significantly in terms of actual balance but only reverses the current roles of clan vs. IS in that area.

So since the "if" part of your little assumption is incorrect ...

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

then you must really hate Heavy Lasers, which are much the same thing, but larger instead of heavier.

... the the derived "conlusion" is bound to be of no actual worth in terms of what I may or may not hate.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

So no, that's not a concern I share,

Thanks for letting me know that you don't share a concern that I didn't express.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

since that difference already exists and seems to have been (mostly) accepted.

Let's have a closer look at that: So a difference with regards to lasers has been (mostly) accepted? Why can't the difference in terms of current mgs be accepted then? Why the need for allegedly "balancing" changes that significantly favor IS on the low end and create at best an equilibrium at the high end where the IS would actually still have stronger survival traits in knife fight situations?

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:04 PM, said:

How about the much better 6 MG ACH with 2-3 HML + ECM?

Let's just say that 2-3 HML would already indicate a different combat role and fighting style and then just rry to do the comparison to the referenced Ember yourself.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 07 February 2018 - 02:31 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Remeber that you were the one who claimed that things were "done". Now you also want to get rid of the Ember's quirk.

Pardon my for trying to be brief. I shall remember to write a thesis next time, and cite my sources correctly. Or not.

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

But what does that actually change in my previously laid out comparisons?

The Crity Lynx still is overall weaker and the Piranha just barely excels at raw mg power.

I would not compare a 35 ton Firestarter to a 25 ton Mist Lynx or 20 ton Piranha, any more than I would compare a 60 ton Dragon to a 100 ton Kodiak. Of course a 'mech with 40% - 75% more weight can bring more firepower. Sorry, but I find your comparisons worthless, hence not addressing them.

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Let's have a closer look at that: So a difference with regards to lasers has been (mostly) accepted? Why can't the difference in terms of current mgs be accepted then? Why the need for allegedly "balancing" changes that significantly favor IS on the low end and create at best an equilibrium at the high end where the IS would actually still have stronger survival traits in knife fight situations?

So one side having a larger, more damaging weapon (Clan Heavy Lasers) is not OK to compare to a suggested buff that makes one side have a heavier, more damaging weapon (IS MGs) ? I feel the need to point out that IS SRMs have more damage than their Clan counterparts.

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:28 PM, said:

Let's just say that 2-3 HML would already indicate a different combat role and fighting style and then just rry to do the comparison to the referenced Ember yourself.

So how about you give me an IS comparison to the aforementioned ACH build then?

However, getting bogged down in specific builds is pointless at this juncture.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

As for the Ember; with or without the 25% RoF quirk it is a bad 'Mech.

But 100% to 125% RoF would certainly change things to a certain degree </p>

Yeonne Greene, on 07 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

It is large and has clumsy agility, which together makes it squishy.

Well, it didn't feel too clumsy once I skilled it ... but the again ... I'm just a "potato" and the next thing that have good chances of happening here is stat shaming.

Yeonne Greene, on 07 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Add isXL to that mix.

The referenced build uses 265 IS LE so for me isXL wasn't in the mix.

Yeonne Greene, on 07 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

It can't maneuver behind Assaults like a Piranha or Locust, and it also can't aim the torso up or down to save its life.

At a skilled speed of 132 km/h I certainly found it easier to position an Ember behind an Assault than a Lynx with 122 km/h. It was there that the difference in number of mgs that actually showed ... but that's the point that some quite obviously want to change in favor of the Ember.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 07 February 2018 - 02:58 PM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

Pardon my for trying to be brief. I shall remember to write a thesis next time, and cite my sources correctly. Or not.

See, that's the part the regularly amuses me. First people make "brief" and "absolute" claims. When confronted with elements that don't add up, they resort to fallacies of all kinds ...

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

I would not compare a 35 ton Firestarter to a 25 ton Mist Lynx or 20 ton Piranha, any more than I would compare a 60 ton Dragon to a 100 ton Kodiak.

Since the whole argument seems to revolve around mechs that "boat" those mgs that non-comparison idea is just as funny as the next fallacy of your's where you inflate the comparison over two mech weight classes on lower end to max high end instead of sticking within the same weight class.

/applauds

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

Of course a 'mech with 40% - 75% more weight can bring more firepower. Sorry, but I find your comparisons worthless, hence not addressing them.

Another one of the more famous fallacies. Amusement levels are rising once again.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

So one side having a larger, more damaging weapon (Clan Heavy Lasers) is not OK to compare to a suggested buff that makes one side have a heavier, more damaging weapon (IS MGs) ?

Did I actually say that? Nope ... But keep on trying.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

I feel the need to point out that IS SRMs have more damage than their Clan counterparts.

They do? If so, doesn't that already counteract the "imbalance" with regards to lasers ... provided you already subscribed to the point that said laser imbalance isn't counteracted by how things are set up within the energy weaponry class.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

So how about you give me an IS comparison to the aforementioned ACH build then?

Why would I want to do that? You already said that particular comparisons are beneath the worth of you responding.

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 02:42 PM, said:

However, getting bogged down in specific builds is pointless at this juncture.

At this juncture? This discussion about "imbalanced mgs" is all about rather specific builds of the Pir 1 and the Mist Lynx with very limited variation.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

See, that's the part the regularly amuses me. First people make "brief" and "absolute" claims. When confronted with elements that don't add up, they resort to fallacies of all kinds ...

The "fallacy" that I made a (very) short suggestion, obviously missing details, in order to reiterate a point already made several times in the thread, but glossed over by some thinking it was some dastardly plot to buff those pesky IS 'mechs? You'll forgive me if I get irked repeating myself. Quirks don't have much place in weapon balance discussions, IMHO, because they can and do change so often.

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

Since the whole argument seems to revolve around mechs that "boat" those mgs that non-comparison idea is just as funny as the next fallacy of your's where you inflate the comparison over two mech weight classes on lower end to max high end instead of sticking within the same weight class.

/applauds

Just a little reductio ad absurdum to highlight the flaw in your comparison. Glad it entertained you.

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

Did I actually say that? Nope ... But keep on trying.

Please clarify this earlier statement;

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 01:33 PM, said:

This still doubles the number of effective mgs on "non-boat" configurations that use mgs as side weaponry. Two IS mgs turn into an effective four mg setup where a Clan mech will still have only 2

I thought you were saying IS MGs can't be 2x as effective as Clan MGs, because of low hardpoint 'mechs. That's why I brought up Heavy Lasers, which are 2x as effective as IS lasers. Evidently, I misinterpreted your statement.

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

Why would I want to do that? You already said that particular comparisons are beneath the worth of you responding.

Indeed I did. Good eye!

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:57 PM, said:

At this juncture? This discussion about "imbalanced mgs" is all about rather specific builds of the Pir 1 and the Mist Lynx with very limited variation.

This discussion is about IS MGs weighing 2x that of Clan MGs and what can be done to remedy this (including the removal of prior IS MG buffs & Clan MG nerfs), with chassis specific builds being a secondary discussion.

[Y E O N N E]

Der Geisterbaer, on 07 February 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

But 100% to 125% RoF would certainly change things to a certain degree

Sure. That being said, I am not advocating for a 2x RoF buff and I'm not necessarily advocating that the quirk remain in place if the MGs do get buffed. 12x effective MGs is probably too too much. 9x effective keeping the quirk with my preferred 1.5x RoF buff is probably just fine. 6x using my preferred 1.5x RoF alone is also probably just fine, if the Ember also gets better agility than it currently has.

Quote

Well, it didn't feel too clumsy once I skilled it ... but the again ... I'm just a &quot;potato&quot; and the next thing that have good chances of happening here is stat shaming.

I do not stat shame unless somebody else pulls that card. I mostly warn against pulling that card. Better to not even bring it up. But there is some wisdom in experience playing against tougher opposition that I would also advise against dismissing out of hand.

Also, I have mine skilled all the way up, max mobility. The issue is that the nodes are scalars, and the Ember has very poor base values to start from. It can't pitch its torso up and down like a Piranha can, and even moderate grades are a real bear to fight on. This is a long-standing stealth nerf since the Ember's introduction, one past its prime. Much like the TBR negative quirks, TBQH.

It is a very clumsy 'Mech to be playing at MG ranges.

Quote

The referenced build uses 265 IS LE so for me isXL wasn't in the mix.

Too slow for the physical size of the 'Mech and its lack of armor, really. But not the worst.

If the Ember were to get 12x effective MGs, I think you'll find most people just stripping the arms and running around with a max LFE, one or two JJs, and only the MGs. Even more threatening, though, would be the 12x effective HMG builds. 16.8 DPS? 5000 rounds? 139 kph on an LFE 280? JJs? That's scary, OP, and a giant NOEP. But with a 1.5 x modifier and the quirk? Only 12.6 DPS, comparable to a Piranha except all in the MGs and without the evasion abilities. Too close to declare OP out of hand like the 16.8 DPS one. 1.5x without the quirk? 8.4, not at all OP.

Quote

At a skilled speed of 132 km/h I certainly found it easier to position an Ember behind an Assault than a Lynx with 122 km/h. It was there that the difference in number of mgs that actually showed ... but that's the point that some quite obviously want to change in favor of the Ember.

The Ember does not have the agility to hold a rear position against a competent Assault and it's tall enough that it can't take advantage of leg-humping blind spots.

The MLX has never been a butt-assassin (lul); it's not fast enough to back-line. It has always been at its best fighting from the front, using small hops and its really good frontal profile to tank damage while it chews a target up. It only really goes for butts late game when everything has gone chaotic. Also, the top MLX build is actually 8x MG with your choice of 4x ERSL or 4x HSL. I run the 6x MG variant using the A right arm so I have the tonnage for a trio of HML, but as you said earlier that is a very different playstyle to the full-engage DPS chewing you are trying to compare to your theoretical Ember.

[Brain Cancer]

Nema Nabojiv, on 07 February 2018 - 12:18 PM, said:

Ok, no problem. It wont be a porblem if we had a similarly quirked and sized clan mech then, right?

It's almost as if you've never heard of the Urbanmech IIC people have been asking for.

And yeah, I want that too. As a Clan pilot, I frequently get Urbenvy.

[Brain Cancer]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 February 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

Der Geisterbaer has a point about how every IS 'Mech with one ballistic hardpoint would get a buff. That being said:

1. IS have always had the ability to boat more MGs than Clans on 'Mechs heavier than 45 tons

Dire Wolf, which can actually mount eight if you're being silly, but six + an actual weapons layout is cake.

Proof of concept: http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9b021f769c4cef4

Quote

2. That ability has counted for nothing and will still count for nothing due to the combined lack of range, speed, and burst for the classes. The only exception, really, is the JM6-DD, which would have an effective 12x MGs that can pair with a pair of ERPPC or SNPPC at a decent speed. There is potential for that to be too good. But Maulers and KGCs boating 12x MGs of firepower? Memes. Way too big, way too slow.

Assuming you're strapping something else into the other hardpoints, it becomes far less memegun and quite sufficient zero-heat firepower. It also becomes a nasty way to keep lights from getting too close, lest you BRRT even flamer builds into swiss cheese.

Quote

But this is all why I don't prefer a straight 2x RoF buff. IS MG boats are mostly slower and larger. I would gladly sacrifice some of the RoF bonus down to 1.5x for a bit more range so it complements the 'Mech better. We would have comparable IS MGs that play and interact with complementary equipment differently. That still leaves the LCT-1V and 3V at distinct disadvantages, but with HMGs the former would come close at 10 DPS with a small laser in the mix. Not too shabby, IMHO.

As for the Ember; with or without the 25% RoF quirk it is a bad 'Mech. It is large and has clumsy agility, which together makes it squishy. Add isXL to that mix. It can't maneuver behind Assaults like a Piranha or Locust, and it also can't aim the torso up or down to save its life. And I say that as somebody who can still make it work, but goddamn does it take way more effort to do so.

We see ROF boosts for MGs mostly because the relatively few robots that even come close still need the help, never mind the ones PGI randomly gifts that quirk to who barely get a benefit from mounting them now. Better IS MGs might actually mean those quirks are a meaningful positive to the chassis who equip them.

[Athom83]

Jay Leon Hart, on 07 February 2018 - 12:22 PM, said:

With an IS XL? Sure!

Technically, I run mine with a Std 180 and just laugh when I spin around like a top with 4+ enemies trying to kill me XD.

[Athom83]

So... Juggernaut when?

Edited by Athom83, 07 February 2018 - 06:20 PM.

[R Valentine]

Can't believe someone's actually scared of IS machine guns on heavy and assault mechs if they get buffed. Given how fat and slow IS assaults are, combined with the incredibly short range of IS machine guns, what is there really to be scared of? Machine guns, even at 2x effectiveness, will only ever be good on light and medium mechs because of their ability to close. I don't really want 2x IS machine gun RoF either, but given that clan lights can boat more than double the number of machine guns for half the weight, what other option is there? This is why you don't release stupid crap like the Parana. It completely destroyed any semblance of balance between IS and clan light mechs. As if the Mist Lynx wasn't bad enough. At least it had MGs on the arms.