100 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

Snowbluff, on 09 February 2018 - 09:48 AM, said:

Just FYI, reflective armor is a crap option that just turns MM into even more dice roll.

Now you know how missile boaters feel every time Polar and Mining are on the same mapvote. Or ATMers wondering if there's going to be another frickin' triple AMS KFX hosing down their assault-sized launchers to near nothing.

I say deal with it. Having equipment you can plug into a chassis that directly screws the meta-of-the-moment would be a godsend, and the purest form of anti-boating we could achieve.

[FupDup]

Gas Guzzler, on 09 February 2018 - 09:25 AM, said:

Yet lights are routinely the last mechs alive because if they play smart they are mostly ignored until the end.

I'm not talking about lights though. More talking about heavies and up.

I'm not defending Khobai here, but the "last mech alive" argument is pretty weak because:

1. Lights other than the Piranha and Jenny IIC tend to have low firepower, thus they are not prioritized. Targets who pose the largest threat (aka probably not lights) usually get killed first. People who aren't as threatening get to live longer.

2. It greatly depends on how aggressive the player is and what their loadout is. Somebody sniping in the back is generally going to live longer than a brawler, regardless of weight class.

3. The usually greater speed of the smaller mechs lets them disengage when they predict things are about to get hairy. Big slow robots have to commit. Being able to evade danger before it arrives is not the same thing as straight-up damage absorption (the latter is usually what people refer to when talking about TTK).

4. My personal anecdote is that I have been the last mech standing on my team with literally every single mech I've ever owned, no exceptions. Even the Dire Whale. Some pull this off more frequently than others, but I can be the last guy alive even in a slow/fat mech. It's not really an accomplishment.

To reiterate, I'm not quite siding with Kolby here, I'm just annoyed that people still use the "last mech alive bruh!" argument as if it's supposed to mean something.

Edited by FupDup, 09 February 2018 - 06:31 PM.

[Shadowomega1]

Khobai, on 07 February 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

the problem with reflective armor is that omnimechs cant use it

so you just make omnimechs utter crap then

you would either have to unlock the locked equipment on omnimechs or do reflective armor through the skill tree by adding reflective coating as a new skill in the survivability skill tree

Problem with that is reflective is weak to ballistic and reactive is weak to energy. So while reducing the incoming damage by 50% is nice it's going to take 50% more from the other type of damage. Furthermore while the armor is in "production" during the civil war it isn't in mass production as it still holds "experimental" status till the closing years of the Jihad era in 3080. Also it takes up more internal slots them FF for clan and less than FF for IS at 10 internal slots (IS & Clan)

So it being in the skill tree is a no go.

[Khobai]

Quote

So it being in the skill tree is a no go.

why couldnt you just add skill nodes to the skill tree that are like:

-2% damage from energy weapons

[Shadowomega1]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

why couldnt you just add skill nodes to the skill tree that are like:

-2% damage from energy weapons

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 06:39 PM, said:

Problem with that is reflective is weak to ballistic and reactive is weak to energy. So while reducing the incoming damage by 50% is nice it's going to take 50% more from the other type of damage.

Edited by Shadowomega1, 11 February 2018 - 06:55 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

Reflective is not actually weak to ballistic and Reactive is not weak to energy. I don't know where you guys are getting that from, but it's not the TT rules. Both of those armor types are just as good against their opposing damage types as standard armor.

[FupDup]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Reflective is not actually weak to ballistic and Reactive is not weak to energy. I don't know where you guys are getting that from, but it's not the TT rules. Both of those armor types are just as good against their opposing damage types as standard armor.

I think it might be some misconceptions from MW4.

[Shadowomega1]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Reflective is not actually weak to ballistic and Reactive is not weak to energy. I don't know where you guys are getting that from, but it's not the TT rules. Both of those armor types are just as good against their opposing damage types as standard armor.

Mechwarrior 4 which it did take increased damage from the other weapon type, and this line on sarna.

"Whenever a 'Mech is physically attacked, falls, or crashes through a building, the armor is half as effective as standard or Ferro-Fibrous armor."

Edited by Shadowomega1, 11 February 2018 - 07:03 PM.

[FupDup]

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

"Whenever a 'Mech is physically attacked, falls, or crashes through a building, the armor is half as effective as standard or Ferro-Fibrous armor."

In other words, not ballistic weapons.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 07:02 PM, said:

Mechwarrior 4 which it did take increased damage from the other weapon type, and this line on sarna.

"Whenever a 'Mech is physically attacked, falls, or crashes through a building, the armor is half as effective as standard or Ferro-Fibrous armor."

That line is for getting clubbed or tripping over stuff, not getting shot. Sarna even explicitly says that it functions the same as standard armor against ballistic weapons.

Also, MW4 did it wrong. MW4 did almost everything wrong.

[Shadowomega1]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 07:08 PM, said:

That line is for getting clubbed or tripping over stuff, not getting shot. Sarna even explicitly says that it functions the same as standard armor against ballistic weapons.

Also, MW4 did it wrong. MW4 did almost everything wrong.

But it did give a counterbalance (down side) to the armors when their TT downside wasn't even workable with in the system. IE the falling, crashing, physical hit. I can also see physical hit counting to shell impact, considering the armor is considered brittle.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 07:16 PM, said:

But it did give a counterbalance (down side) to the armors when their TT downside wasn't even workable with in the system. IE the falling, crashing, physical hit. I can also see physical hit counting to shell impact, considering the armor is considered brittle.

It gave counterbalance in a system where slots weren't a thing.

In MWO, it would consume slots. That's all the counterbalance it needs.

[Shadowomega1]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 07:38 PM, said:

It gave counterbalance in a system where slots weren't a thing.

In MWO, it would consume slots. That's all the counterbalance it needs.

Not with what Khobi suggested. Also it would be a near strait armor upgrade.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

Not with what Khobi suggested. Also it would be a near strait armor upgrade.

Endo is 14 slots.

These armors are 10 slots.

Whether or not you take Endo, you are giving up offensive capabilities for defensive capabilities. In that regard, it's a fair trade, perhaps less so for Clan 'Mechs than for IS 'Mechs.

As for the Omnis, making the armor types weak to their opposing number doesn't do anything to help them because they'd still be only 50% effective against targets with one or the other equipped. Easier to just unlock the armor type on Omnis.

[Shadowomega1]

I think you mean FF not endo.

There are severals mechs that I own for IS that have 10 slots open but less than 14 slots open, have full armor and using Composite FF for 7 doesn't give enough back to even up the engine anymore, or even half a ton for more ammo. So on those builds going with Reflective or Reactive would be a strait upgrade.

Also you skipped over what I pointed out on Khobi's post, again.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

I think you mean FF not endo.

No, I meant Endo.

If it's going to take me 24 slots to equip both, I either keep endo and have too few slots or drop Endo and have too few tons for what we'd conventionally consider a competitive build. Either way, it's a nerf to my 'Mech's offensive capability to get that special armor type on. Stealth Armor is the same way.

Quote

There are severals mechs that I own for IS that have 10 slots open but less than 14 slots open, have full armor and using Composite FF for 7 doesn't give enough back to even up the engine anymore, or even half a ton for more ammo. So on those builds going with Reflective or Reactive would be a strait upgrade.

I can promise that those 'Mechs are leaving something on the table that you've overlooked or chosen to ignore. None of my 'Mechs have more than a token number of slots available to do anything with, nor do any optimally-configured builds.

Quote

Also you skipped over what I pointed out on Khobi's post, again.

He has several, you'll have to be more specific. I thought I got the one you were referring to, but apparently not.

[Shadowomega1]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 08:34 PM, said:

No, I meant Endo.

If it's going to take me 24 slots to equip both, I either keep endo and have too few slots or drop Endo and have too few tons for what we'd conventionally consider a competitive build. Either way, it's a nerf to my 'Mech's offensive capability to get that special armor type on. Stealth Armor is the same way.




I can promise that those 'Mechs are leaving something on the table that you've overlooked or chosen to ignore. None of my 'Mechs have more than a token number of slots available to do anything with, nor do any optimally-configured builds.




He has several, you'll have to be more specific. I thought I got the one you were referring to, but apparently not.

I do believe it's the Bushwacker X1 I have been fielding, and I believe I have been in matches with you while in it.

As for Khobi's post it is the post dealing with the bonus being strait in the Skill tree.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 08:43 PM, said:

I do believe it's the Bushwacker X1 I have been fielding, and I believe I have been in matches with you while in it.

With what on it?

Quote

As for Khobi's post it is the post dealing with the bonus being strait in the Skill tree.

Now that would be OP.

[Shadowomega1]

1x UAC10+3 tons of ammo
2x LMGs .5 or 1 ton of ammo
1x ERLL
2x Rocket 20s

(I forget which LFE I have on it)
Endo and Composite FF (Which last check gives about a half ton about of weight) I can't remember what else is on it.

[Y E O N N E]

Shadowomega1, on 11 February 2018 - 09:07 PM, said:

1x UAC10+3 tons of ammo
2x LMGs .5 or 1 ton of ammo
1x ERLL
2x Rocket 20s

(I forget which LFE I have on it)
Endo and Composite FF (Which last check gives about a half ton about of weight) I can't remember what else is on it.

So...not an optimal build. A bracket build, actually. I don't even have to get into any specifics for this.

It's probably a fun build, but a build like that getting Reflective or Reactive armor isn't going to be anything to write home about.