1125 replies to this topic

[dario03]

I found it a little odd that it says that cssrm is fine but atm is to powerful vs lights. I assume this is because atm range and also because atm can also be good against bigger mechs where as streaks not so much. However I disagree about streaks. Them being balanced by being anti-light weapons but bad against heavies and assaults has never made sense to me. They should be rebalanced so that they are effectively nerfed vs smaller mechs but buffed vs bigger mechs.

edit to put all info in one spot

One way of doing it

-Make component tracking based on weight (against smaller mechs it spreads like now, against bigger mechs it increases chance of hitting torsos)
-lower damage
-faster cooldown but still lower dps overall

So basically against smaller mechs you still have a similar spread of damage but it isn't a giant alpha all at once and the dps would be lower. However streaks wouldn't be hitting the legs and arms of bigger mechs as often which against those mechs is often pointless so while the dps is lower it is more meaningful damage. So its a buff and a nerf to better balance the weapon against all classes. Exact numbers would probably need testing but I would probably greatly reduce damage but buff cooldown at the same time (adjust ammo too).

Might not be exactly a simple tweak but might not be that difficult since we have had target info time based on mech type before, and they have made it so streaks don't target destroyed components. So some what similar mechanics have existed before.

Edited by dario03, 08 February 2018 - 10:28 AM.

[Kanil]

Dropping a pellet off the C AC/5 seems like it will render it strictly superior to the IS AC/5? Same heat/cooldown/damage profile, but longer range and a ton less weight.

I suppose that's no different than the current C/IS AC/2s, though... so perhaps it's not a concern? (Admittedly the Clan one takes more slots in this example, so it's slightly less superior in all regards.)

[Khobai]

continuing on with the topic of missiles because missiles are seriously weak weapons

I feel SRMs could use a damage increase. 2.3 for IS and 2.15 for clans would be a good start.

I also feel like MRMs are a little too effective at point blank splat. MRMs have largely replaced SRMs on builds like the Atlas-S. MRMs probably need damage dropoff under 90m. There needs to be a range window where SRMs are clearly a better choice than MRMs in order to help keep SRMs relevant. And to counter the damage dropoff, increase the damage on MRMs to 1.1-1.2 per missile to make them better at medium range. Maybe increase their velocity too.

Quote

I found it a little odd that it says that cssrm is fine but atm is to powerful vs lights. I assume this is because atm range and also because atm can also be good against bigger mechs where as streaks not so much. However I disagree about streaks. Them being balanced by being anti-light weapons but bad against heavies and assaults has never made sense to me. They should be rebalanced so that they are effectively nerfed vs smaller mechs but buffed vs bigger mechs.

I already covered how to fix ATMs. Nerfing their tracking is not what they need.

ATMs should not be a 120m-270m niche weapon to begin with. ATMs are supposed to be a versatile weapon thats useful at all ranges.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2018 - 08:01 PM.

[Ted Wayz]

Balanced for what?

Without roles you are balancing weapons on the basis of a broken scoring system which feeds a broken PSR which feeds a broken matchmaker.

So you will balance a HMG on ability to do damage versus other weapon systems based on their tonnage and ability to do damage at a certain range? In a system with pinpoint accuracy?

And you think you will end up solving what?

Congrats. You are now free consultants for PGI furthering their agenda of making a tactical game (Battletech)into a twitch shooter (MWO) that will never be considered competitive.

But by all means pat yourself on the back.

[The Lighthouse]

FIrst, I must remind you guys that missile weapons of IS is TWO times more heavier than Clan equivalent.

It is just IS medium mechs having massive missile quirks in general, but without quirks ALL IS missiles are incredibly weak against clan missiles due to the simple fact it takes twice more weight.

If these changes are going to be implemented, those massive missile quirks will be still needed for IS mechs, just remind you guys.

Finally, here are what I said in reddit:

Quote

Argh, if this is going to happen for ghost-link regarding Gauss-PPC, you guys should buff Heavy Gauss by reducing its slots by 10 like you guys did on LBX20. Otherwise, People surely rather choose dual Standard Gauss + PPC for 45 pinpoint damage which can be equipped with light/XL engine. Just losing 5 damage for immense tonnage/speed benefit... the choice is so obvious that no one would use heavy gauss.


And I really do not think keeping jamming mechanics on UAC is a great idea. It is so repeatedly proven it is hella unreliable code-wise, and we are certain this game does not use good, real random number generator. In the end, with these changes, most people would not even bother using heavy UACs because they cannot be boated. Otherwise rest of changes are solid. Good jab Taro and boys.

.......

I am not comparing Heavy Gauss to LBX20 or AC20. I mean Dual Heavy Gauss compared to two Standard Gauss + Heavy PPC. Dual Heavy Gauss takes 36 tons, Normal dual Gauss + Heavy PPC take 40 tons. However it takes 4 less critical slots (which is conveniently matches with light engine takes extra 4 slots, making slot requirement same, with much easier time putting things on limited spaces such as arms.)

At engine rating of 300 (standard vs. light), dual gauss + H PPC already gives back 0.5 ton compared to Dual heavy gauss, and we are not even talking about added benefits such as much greater effective range, and the fact that PPC does not use any ammo.

.......

Also, it is best to set those max slot of equipment as 8 instead of 10 for the sake of long-term of the game, otherwise there are tons of stuffs that cannot be ported into the game because PGI gave up on implementing crit spliting.

For instance, majority of currently unported IS Hunchback cannot be ported into the game because the mechs have setups like... XL engine with LB-20X. With 10 slots, LB-20X still cannot be fit with XL engine with current game setup. The reason why I suggest "8" slots is that 8 is the max possible critical splitting value. With this value we can port all mech variants into the game without critical slot problems.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 07 February 2018 - 07:25 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Khobai, on 07 February 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

I already covered how to fix ATMs. Nerfing their tracking is not what they need.

ATMs should not be a 120m-270m niche weapon to begin with. ATMs are supposed to be a versatile weapon thats useful at all ranges.

As if they don't decent damage up to 540m. I agree that it shouldn't have minimum range, and would have reduced damage to come with it. But just saying that it's a "niche weapon for 120m-270m" is just utterly false, it's perfectly capable of participating at mid-range. Of course it's totally inefficient at long ranges.

Lets just remove the minimum range and have it deal 2.4/2.0/1.6 damage at 0-270/271-540/541-1150, that way the damage isn't severely reduced with range (50% vs 33.34%), it still has respectable efficiency at mid-range (75%), while still also have powerful punch close-range (100%) -- without bordering on insane over-the-top damage steps.

[Khobai]

Quote

FIrst, I must remind you guys that missile weapons of IS is TWO times more heavier than Clan equivalent.

which is precisely why IS SRMs are stronger than C SRMs

more damage
better spread
better missile quirks
better srm brawlers (like the assassin)
better crit health

IS LRMs are similarly stronger than C LRMs.

missile weapons need equal buffs on both sides. But I dont think IS missiles need substantial buffs over clan missiles.

I mean decreasing heat on IS LRMs is a joke anyway. Thats not gonna make IS LRMs suddenly good.

Missile weapons on both sides have way bigger problems than that. Its not a fine tuning issue. Missiles need a coarse readjustment.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2018 - 07:57 PM.

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

I want my Gauss rifle nerfes to be reverted.
Whole reason they nerfed it was because of the Gauss/PPC meta which you almost never see anyways.

[Jonathan8883]

Background:
Played MW2/NetMech/Mercs/MW4, DMs D&D 3.5 (meaning I have learned to pay attention to balance!), etc. I've been playing MWO for only about 8 months, despite my account being older.

I agree that balance via buffing is better than balance via nerfing.

I am going based on the text summary instead of looking at the individual numbers - I trust the numbers are fair, and am more concerned with the intent (also - I am super tired).

Ballistics: All changes look good. I would consider reducing Clan MG crit rate slightly to balance the fact that every Clan 'Mech I've seen use MGs typically packs 6+. I also suggest another buff to Light Gauss rifles, probably damage + rate of fire. LGR is still a rare beast.


Missiles:
IS missiles take, on average, around 1.5 the tonnage of Clan missile launchers. Since they are already much more expensive to carry, I would like to see the range gap between IS SSRMs & CSSRMs reduced by at least 1/3.
MRMs are very hard to keep on target at long range, unless the target is stationary. A minor velocity buff would be good with the spread reduction.
ATM tracking reduction makes me sad, but makes sense.
I would like to see a ghost heat revisit on LRMs. 4x LRM5s triggers ghost heat (IS), as does 4x SSRM6/SSRM4. On IS mechs, it makes more sense to run 4x LRM5s than 1x LRM20 due to rate of fire and spread improvements.
Reducing the spread penalty for larger LRM launchers would also be welcome.
NARC launchers need some sort of improvement. They have a slow velocity, and behave as though they are impacted by gravity (slight arc). I'm not sure what to suggest to improve them, but either a velocity boost, lock-on option, or improved hit radius (larger warhead to prevent underarm misses) would be nice. IS NARC could also use a range boost, as the short range makes it hard for LRM boats to do their own narcing.

[PocketYoda]

I doubt anyone will listen to me but

A lot of the more modern IS mechs need Defense quirks or somthing to save them, Things like Osiris, Uziel Thantos, Nightstar, Hellspawn and many more need a pass to make them effective or customers just will not buy them or use them..

Mech mobility is too fast, way too fast, its a large reason the games balance has gone to ****...

Might not be popular but i'd like to see consumables removed from Quickplay completely, its really over powered and a lot of new customers cannot afford it.. So you get a two tier population that can spam them at will en mass and force wins each game... Obviously Consumables would be fine in Competitive and Faction play.

New player experience is horrible, low money, even with the tutorial, toxic veterans attacking them in voip and no balance, vets on them every match, no clue what to do no real idea what to buy and very very thick lore to wade through or else....

Joining a unit can be even worse...

PSR is a joke, it needs to allow customers to stay in the level they feel ok with not force them up into the elites to be gun fodder for the rest of their MWO days.. Human skill ceilings are different, not everyone wants or can be an elite esport person.. stop forcing everyone to be.. and your population wouldn't dwindle.

[Johnathan Von Tanner]

Its DOA because PGI. They have never ever responded well to community criticism, If they respond at all. And they have never EVER admitted they made a mistake in the development of this game. Long toms anyone?

[Khobai]

Quote

Since they are already much more expensive to carry, I would like to see the range gap between IS SSRMs & CSSRMs reduced by at least 1/3.

IS streaks do 50% more dps, have better velocity, access to better missile quirks and missile mechs, and better crit health. and 90m less range

that seems fair to me for weighing 50% more


for the most part the IS vs Clan balance seems okay on missile weapons.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2018 - 08:16 PM.

[UnofficialOperator]

lol @ HMG buffs
lol @ cUAC buffs

Yeah guys, great changes. 100% approved

Edited by UnofficialOperator, 07 February 2018 - 08:29 PM.

[The Lighthouse]

UnofficialOperator, on 07 February 2018 - 08:24 PM, said:

lol @ HMG buffs

HMG is probably the king of 1v1, just like rocket launcher. The problem is that HMG also suffers same problem as the rocket launcher -not good for normal games due to limited ammo.

[UnofficialOperator]

The Lighthouse, on 07 February 2018 - 08:26 PM, said:

HMG is probably the king of 1v1, just like rocket launcher. The problem is that HMG also suffers same problem as the rocket launcher -not good for normal games due to limited ammo.

LMAO not good for normal games???

Oh man I hope hmg and uac changes go thru... the salt that will be incoming...

[slide]

Some thoughts from a long time but not particularly high level player.

I won't comment on specific changes to weapons as you have a far better feel for the numbers than I do. That said I am concerned with all the buffs. I personally still think that TTK is still way to low in this game and it gets shorter as you rise through the tiers. Whilst I have no problem with equalizing weapons across the board, most of your suggestions will make TTK shorter, either by increasing alpha size or appreciably increasing DPS across the board.

Much of the suggestions only create viable alternatives to laser vomit, they don't actually address the issue of laser vomit itself.

Spread damage weapons (LBX, missiles etc) are still inferior choices to direct fire (laser, PPC, Guass) none of which is addressed. IMO LBX weapons should have twice the fire rate and lower slot/weight in comparison to AC or UAC. If the IS LBX10 wasn't 1 ton lighter and 1 slot less than an AC then it would never see the light of day. Lbx5 should be -1 ton -1 slot over regular AC and 10/20 should be -2/-2 for both Clan and IS. (or even -3 for lbx 20)

Missiles in general only work when boated in massive numbers. It's kind of like using a sledge hammer to crack Wallnuts when small hammer should work. Most mechs with low missile hard points (ie 1) don't even use it most of the time. A single srm6 or lrm10 is just wasted tonnage by most peoples opinion. Missiles need to be looked at in a different way, so that they can be a useful back up weapon or to compliment other weapons. They need buffs to damage and ROF with stiff ghost heat when used in large numbers. Ghost heat should be linked to tube count so it cant be gamed. I currently field an ARC-5w with 3 srm6, 4srm2 and 2MRM10 (I think been a while). Provided I fire the MRMs and SRMs separately I gets no ghost heat.
Additionally I think LRMs should use bone targeting like Streaks do.

It also seems to me that most of these changes will bring back old meta favorites. Whilst not necessarily a bad thing per se, it should be kept in mind that they were nerfed for a reason.


Thanks for the effort, I am all for good changes.

[El Bandito]

At a glance I am on board with the AC heat reduction. Currently ACs are in a bad spot. And I have been asking for 200 damage per ton of ammo for them for the longest time, so that is also welcome.

IS Gauss needs more buffs than that. They are full 3 tons heavier than Clan ones. And MGs, they needs to crit less and damage more. Currently MG boats can crit out weapons/equipments crazy fast.

Edited by El Bandito, 07 February 2018 - 08:51 PM.

[dario03]

Khobai, on 07 February 2018 - 07:22 PM, said:

I already covered how to fix ATMs. Nerfing their tracking is not what they need.

ATMs should not be a 120m-270m niche weapon to begin with. ATMs are supposed to be a versatile weapon thats useful at all ranges.

My comment was directed toward streaks. Those are what I was saying need rebalanced.
My suggestion

-Make component tracking based on weight (against smaller mechs it spreads like now, against bigger mechs it increases chance of hitting torsos)
-lower damage
-faster cooldown but still lower dps overall

So basically against smaller mechs you still have a similar spread of damage but it isn't a giant alpha all at once and the dps would be lower. However streaks wouldn't be hitting the legs and arms of bigger mechs as often which against those mechs is often pointless so while the dps is lower it is more meaningful damage. So its a buff and a nerf to better balance the weapon against all classes. Exact numbers would probably need testing but I would probably greatly reduce damage but buff cooldown at the same time (adjust ammo too).

Edited by dario03, 07 February 2018 - 08:49 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

On the whole I like it.

Especially the Gauss-PPC changes. That community feedback saying that 2 Gauss + 1 PPC should be maintained is bad IMO.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 07 February 2018 - 09:02 PM.

[Khobai]

I dont really get what partially rolling back the gauss/ppc changes is supposed to accomplish if laser vomit still isnt addressed

why would I give up dual guass + 6 CERML to do dual gauss + 1 CERPPC instead?

laser vomit and gauss/laser combos are still going to be a huge problem


CERML needs its damage lowered to 6 not 6.5. With appropriately less heat and cooldown/beam duration.

1 damage more than ISERML is plenty.


also im not seeing any way around lasers and gauss needing ghost heat linkage. if ppcs and gauss have ghost heat linkage then lasers and gauss also need to have it. you shouldnt be able to fire dual gauss and 6 lasers at the same time if you cant fire dual gauss and two CERPPCs at the same time.

or in the case of the direwolf you can fire two large lasers, six medium lasers, and two gauss at the same time? without ghost heat? that shouldnt be allowed.

lasers and gauss need to be linked like ppcs and gauss are.

Edited by Khobai, 07 February 2018 - 09:20 PM.