1125 replies to this topic

[Navid A1]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 February 2018 - 12:33 PM, said:

@Navid A1
could i get your thoughts on this?


using Velocity to make LRMs more reliable?

Well... outright velocity buff makes them more of an annoyance rather than fixing the problem.
I would hold on that to see what is the limit for PGI in terms of implementing new functionality.

Edited by Navid A1, 10 February 2018 - 01:55 PM.

[Sereglach]

Tarogato, on 10 February 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

I feel like flamers are in an okay place right now. They're very rarely used, but they're very very strong when they *are* used well, which is a fairly limited set of circumstances. They aren't even an auto-win in a bonafide 1v1, they can be countered with smart play because they heat you up almost as much as they heat the enemy up (I can't tell you how many times I've seen half-decent pilots overheat themselves while trying to flame the enemy, and they die because of it)

Even with what you just outlined, they're not "okay" and they're not even remotely competitive or viable. They're fundamentally broken, just look at what I pointed out in the original post. As you even said, they're heating you up almost as much as they heat the enemy (and if you go outside the "ramp-up" window it's absolutely more); and by the time your "firing window" has returned to heat neutral any heat you put on the enemy has long since been dissipated.

They're in desperate need of a complete rework to fixed flat values, as the whole premise of the exponential scaling leaves them either broken to uselessness or broken OP (see what happened in Flamergeddon).

How is that "okay"? If they were viable they wouldn't be a beyond niche useless weapon, people would actually consider taking them on a modest basis.

[HammerMaster]

Off topic.
Ammo switch coding for inferno rounds?
More code woes.

[FupDup]

HammerMaster, on 10 February 2018 - 02:25 PM, said:

Off topic.
Ammo switch coding for inferno rounds?
More code woes.

Ammo switching in MWO would probably have to just be firing mode switching while using the same ammo type, seeing how we already have mode switching via ECM and AMS. IIRC the issue with ammo switching was mostly related to coding the different ammo bins rather than the weapon properties changing.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ammo switching in MWO would probably have to just be firing mode switching while using the same ammo type

Its been suggested multiple times as a workaround. just having secondary fire modes on the weapon that use the same ammo.

For example if ATMs could switch between short mode, medium mode, and long mode but use the same ammo type for all three modes. And switching would cause the weapon to go on cooldown so there would be some downside to switching modes.

PGI told us they would look into it but never did

Quote

Incremental steps is for when you have no idea about the effect your changes might cause.... just like walking in the dark.
we've been walking in circles for the past 5 years.
its not hard to anticipate, when you know how things were and how other things caused change, while having more than 25K games in solo/group/FP/League/WC rather than forum posts, since 2012

weve been walking in circles because every time PPC/Gauss gets buffed it needs to be nerfed again

gauss is being used now in effective builds

ppcs are being used now in effective builds

theres simply no proof that gauss and ppcs need to be used together to get used at all

Edited by Khobai, 10 February 2018 - 02:40 PM.

[pandora nl]

matchmaking pls fiks and robot size like wolferine jenner i have more but my english is ****

[Reno Blade]

I wonder what you think of reducing cd and damage of lasers in general (same % for both) to reduce the alpha potential without reuducing dps.
So lasers could be used for low weight and ligh ROF with medium dmg per alpha instead of high alphas.

Or/And what about using Ghost Heat to group large and medium, so you can not fire large and meds together (e.g. reducing efficiency of 2x Large +4x Med build).

[Fleeb the Mad]

An epic thread for epic times it seems.

If feedback is indeed still being monitored after all this time, it seems like many of these changes don't adequately account for the tonnage differences between certain weapons:

Concerning missiles:

The clan SRM adjustments don't account for the fact that Clan SRMs weigh half of their IS counterparts and have equal (or lesser in the case of the cSRM 6) weight when fitted with Artemis vs stock IS SRMs. The spread adjustment with the improved artemis bonus allow for Clan SRM + Artemis to have significantly better spread than a stock IS SRM. The Clan one is too good a package as presented, or the IS one requires a buff in another area to make up for the rather hefty tonnage tax for an increasingly small difference in spread. The 7.5% difference in damage is not enough. Following on themes it seems like the IS SRMs deserve a reduction in heat or an increase in velocity.

Concerning Lasers:

I personally wouldn't say the IS Large Laser is in a good place. At 450 range it competes directly with the cER Medium where it's rather completely outclassed due to its weight. The recent changes that brought its duration to be the same as the ER Large eliminated much of its usefulness.

In fact it seems that IS lasers in general are still somewhat underpowered given Clan range advantages. It's a change from the energy rebalance that never seemed to fit. I think I would suggest duration for IS lasers be reduced by 15% across the board and the cooldowns increased to maintain the same DPS. At present the spread difference between Clan and IS doesn't seem like it it's enough to make them play differently.

Ballistics:

While the Clan ACs have seen little use, changing both the heat and reducing the amount of projectiles to make the cAC2 and cAC5 to be identical to their IS counterparts with better range, lower weight and critical requirements is a mistake. Clan mechs already are in a better position to support boating. I would personally revert the cAC2 heat and not allow for the cAC5 projectile count to be reduced, as that's one of the few areas in which IS and Clan machines play differently.

[naterist]

the inherent problem with gauss ppc is that all of the damage is going into one spot, and there isnt much the opponent can do about it. people who are twisting off the 80 point laser alphas effectively are recieving 80 damage across 5 components (best case scenario). this means that they are recieving approximatly (80/5) 16 damage per component. dual gauss alone is doing 30 damage per component, with no opportunity for spread. assume the average, "good" torso twister is recieving a bit more than optimal damge to each component, genreously about 25 damage, and dual gauss is only moderatly overperforming relative to weapons you can spread damage on.

to add ppc to your dual gauss, you are taking a moderately overperforming system (30 dmg per component when its next best competitor is doing maybe 20-25 dmg), and (by adding 10 pinpoint damage per component hit, component hits being 1 due to the nature of the system), and it is now doing a bit less than double what the next best weapon system can do in an optimal situation. heavy gauss is actually doing double, however it is limited by a variety of other factors. this doesnt even take into effect the splash damage done by clan ppcs, as im focusing on the pinpoint nature of the weapon system.

[Navid A1]

naterist, on 10 February 2018 - 02:51 PM, said:

the inherent problem with gauss ppc is that all of the damage is going into one spot, and there isnt much the opponent can do about it. people who are twisting off the 80 point laser alphas effectively are recieving 80 damage across 5 components (best case scenario). this means that they are recieving approximatly (80/5) 16 damage per component. dual gauss alone is doing 30 damage per component, with no opportunity for spread. assume the average, "good" torso twister is recieving a bit more than optimal damge to each component, genreously about 25 damage, and dual gauss is only moderatly overperforming relative to weapons you can spread damage on.

to add ppc to your dual gauss, you are taking a moderately overperforming system (30 dmg per component when its next best competitor is doing maybe 20-25 dmg), and (by adding 10 pinpoint damage per component hit, component hits being 1 due to the nature of the system), and it is now doing a bit less than double what the next best weapon system can do in an optimal situation. heavy gauss is actually doing double, however it is limited by a variety of other factors. this doesnt even take into effect the splash damage done by clan ppcs, as im focusing on the pinpoint nature of the weapon system.

A twist maneuver against an 80 alpha Gauss vomit mech is 30 pinpoint to your CT plus 20-25 to your CT again + the rest to just ONE ST and ARM.

there... thats 50-55 to one component right there...

I'm having a hard time understanding how a mech with 80+ alpha can do damage to 5 components in one alpha!!!

[naterist]

Navid A1, on 10 February 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

I'm having a hard time understanding how a mech with 80+ alpha can do damage to 5 components in one alpha!!!

its the almost 2 seconds of burn time required by the heavy larges, which are required to achieve such high alphas.

edit:the theory is also based on the assumption that the torso twister is really good at torso twisting, and starts doing it the moment he gets shot at. while dummies who like to facetank a hll cerml alpha will take considerably more damage to one component, i am working under the assumption that we are balancing for the best possible outcomes of any given situation.

this also doesnt take into account the ability of these pinpoint weapon users to minimize exposure time to a level that does not allow for return fire if their opponent is not using the same type of weapon system.

Edited by naterist, 10 February 2018 - 03:12 PM.

[Tarogato]

Fleeb the Mad, on 10 February 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

If feedback is indeed still being monitored after all this time, it seems like many of these changes don't adequately account for the tonnage differences between certain weapons:

Concerning missiles:

The clan SRM adjustments don't account for the fact that Clan SRMs weigh half of their IS counterparts and have equal (or lesser in the case of the cSRM 6) weight when fitted with Artemis vs stock IS SRMs.

[...] etc.

To answer your primary concern:

All of the changes are considering the context of how the weapons perform in the game right now compared to each other when you put them on mechs and actually use them. Our collective experience is what drives these changes, rather than mindless spreadsheet warrior. This is contingent upon people looking at the changes we come up with and telling us if our experiences have misguided us. (hence 1,134 comments across forums and reddit so far)

For instance, if you put SRMs in fights against small pulses or laservomit. Or for an IS SRM boat like the Griffin, Trebuchet, or Bushwacker against a clan mech like the Huntsman, Stormcrow, or Shadowcat. Or to better answer that question, which would you prefer using, and why? If you consistently choose the IS mechs with SRMs, over the clan mechs with SRMs... why? What can we fix about the clan SRMs to make answering that question more difficult to answer, and more worthy of debate?

Of course muddying this all is the reality of PGI's quirks, especially on the IS side. Which means that while it may look like we overbuff a clan weapon, that's only because the IS mechs all have quirks that inflate their performance in ways that you won't necessarily see on a spreadsheet.

[Johnathan Tanner]

My fellow mechwarriors, I present to you THE MOST TERRIFYING OP MECH IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9327a76960407ab
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...8f73c1c2ac3528a

Thats right! Cower in fear ye deathstrikes. For to be on the field against it is an insta loss. None can repel fire power of this magnitude! Not even a heavy gauss slepnir.

All lights are oneshoted the second they leave cover! All forms of brawling become obsolete! Lurms are useless against its poptart powers!

No weapon combo can EVER be allowed to be an alternative to gauss vomit!
Long may these evil things be chained.

Thats kinda what the argument against 2+Guass ppc/2ppc guass sounds like.

Just saying....

EDIT Added it terrible twin, THE OP TIMBERWOLF!

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 10 February 2018 - 03:29 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Navid A1, on 10 February 2018 - 02:58 PM, said:

A twist maneuver against an 80 alpha Gauss vomit mech is 30 pinpoint to your CT plus 20-25 to your CT again + the rest to just ONE ST and ARM.

there... thats 50-55 to one component right there...

I'm having a hard time understanding how a mech with 80+ alpha can do damage to 5 components in one alpha!!!

My concern is exposure time really. Blasting and then immediately going back to cover -- which poptarting does so effectively -- the Front-Loaded nature of PPC and Gauss provides a disproportionately low risk in terms of the quality damage it does.

I mean we can just snap a shot and then back to cover or quickly turn away to shield. But having to stare for 1.35s for medium lasers and 1.55s for heavy larges, that presents a considerably larger possible incoming damage for the gauss vomit or laser vomit.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2018 - 03:36 PM.

[Wing 0]

dario03, on 10 February 2018 - 12:58 PM, said:

Probably due to thinking that it would be completely OP like it was sometimes in the past. It could be fine if balanced properly. I still say jump sniping was balance fine right before it was super nerf around clan release. Just didn't give enough time for people to adjust to the smaller nerfs that preceded it.
Should at least allow 2(ER)ppc 1 gauss without very high ghost heat. Even some GH would be fine, but right now its really high.

Agreed.

Heres something that PGI should've done to that at first.

2 Gauss 1 PPC Should trigger Minor GH 30% heat instead of 70% .Trade off is the Ammo.

2 PPC 1 Gauss Should trigger Major GH . 60% heat instead of 95% Trade off is the Energy Weaponry.

2 PPC 2 Gauss Should trigger Massive GH 85% heat instead of 95% near Insta shutdown. Trade off is preventing any constant Alpha Strikes.

Any other weapons firing with any of those combinations with should trigger multiple GH trouble. like for example, firing 2 Gauss 1 PPC and 1 Medium Laser will just add more to the GH making it worse.

This is just an opinon of what it should've been. Adjustment would've been less severe than what it was given. sure it still be useable in some cases but it wouldn't be a completely "Viable Combo" overall.

I did some testing grounds to see where each GH of those combinations went and yeah. Its way too high. Keep in mind, My numbers might not be exactly accurate because of the skilltree involved. Clan ERLs or other Energy weapons have way a better leeway on the GH and pilots can get away with it easily.

I know they nerfed it to prevent the Mad Cat MKII from being OP which was understandable but the way they approached it before the MKII first came out was simply bad excuse based on the notes by the devs meaning (Paul). They should've toned it down based on certain combinations like I mentioned to where they could still be used but with some trade that a pilot would have to be dealing with. Right now it needs major readjustments. Firing 1 PPC 2 Gauss triggers way too high on its penalty going 70% heat vs other combinations which are just as bad. Then again, the Nightstar would get some major value again to be wanted to be used more since this would help that mech as well.

Since the Fafnir is coming and right now the HVY Gauss got that stupid buff that wasn't needed period. If I see 12 Fafnirs in any game with a same HVY Gauss build in particular, PGI will have failed. Right now I have seen Cyclops and Annis running something similar to HVY Gauss builds and they hurt more than a 1 PPC 2 Gauss build atm which only does 40 dmg without PPC its 30 dmg. HVY Gauss does 25 Dmg Each. 2 of them would be 50 dmg.

I already see trouble incoming. 1 PPC 2 HVY Gauss. 60 dmg. That should trigger 90 Heat near Shutdown. Lets not forget that clans cant use HVY Gauss.

Gyrok, on 10 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Legitimate question:

How is this a scarier mech than this, or even this?

I want a legitimate answer as to how the former is somehow worse for an enemy mech to encounter than the latter.

I agree. A good satisfying answer is needed and has to be very persuasive. MKIIs don't have those quirk buffs to start with right off the bat plus they don't have the kind of GH penalties that I.S has leeway on. Seen too many BLRS and its really old and repetitive.

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

My fellow mechwarriors, I present to you THE MOST TERRIFYING OP MECH IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...9327a76960407ab

Thats right! Cower in fear ye deathstrikes. For to be on the field against it is an insta loss. None can repel fire power of this magnitude! Not even a heavy gauss slepnir.

All lights are oneshoted the second they leave cover! All forms of brawling become obsolete! Lurms are useless against its poptart powers!

No weapon combo can EVER be allowed to be an alternative to gauss vomit!
Long may these evil things be chained.

Thats kinda what the argument against 2+Gauss ppc/2ppc gauss sounds like.

Just saying....

LOL. Timberwolfs and NTGs are nothing to be scared about compared to a Kodiak, King Crab, Supernoob, or even a MIIC with 2PPC 2Guass. Sure the MKII can do that but as it stands right now with the current GH, nope.

[Johnathan Tanner]

The6thMessenger, on 10 February 2018 - 03:34 PM, said:

My concern is exposure time really. Blasting and then immediately going back to cover -- which poptarting does so effectively -- the Front-Loaded nature of PPC and Gauss provides a disproportionately low risk in terms of the quality damage it does.

A 2 HLL 4-6 ERmed hellbringer can poke out, alpha,twist,reverse and be back in cover in the same or less time than. Taking little oor no damage in return. Once a poptart is airborn its totally committed. And they tend to catch hell on the way down. Its just another way to play the game. Not OP at all.

[FupDup]

Gyrok, on 10 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Legitimate question:

How is this a scarier mech than this, or even this?

I want a legitimate answer as to how the former is somehow worse for an enemy mech to encounter than the latter.

My answers to your question:

1. The two latter mechs have their entire payload dependent on heat (energy), while the first one has heatless Gauss that allows it to keep firing something even after it reaches the heat cap.

2. The laser boats can potentially spread their damage across multiple hitboxes, depending on factors like the player's skill and the size of the target. The GaussPeeps build is going to lump that chunk into a single hitbox and also deal up to 10 points of splash damage to adjacent body parts. The GaussPeeps mech also has the least exposure time.

3. That Battlemaster is going to have to split his firing groups to avoid Spook Heat, which increases the amount of time the target has to react and makes him more vulnerable to return fire. It's also the slowest mech of those three.

In general, something to remember is that not all damage is created equally. Specifically, pinpoint damage of a certain amount is superior to spread damage of the same amount, i.e. 30 PPFLD massively trumps 30 laser or 30 splat damage. The way that spread damage makes up for this is by having much greater total damage when possible.

This was demonstrated most recently with Energy Draw where PPFLD was massively more favorable than laser or splat weaponry when you have a global damage cap set fairly low.

Edited by FupDup, 10 February 2018 - 03:46 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Back to missles...
Up (a lot) velocity WHEN in LOS
Out of Los = huge spread
Should be easy in spreadsheet

I think that soft/hard lock on may have merit...

Edited by HammerMaster, 10 February 2018 - 03:52 PM.

[The6thMessenger]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

A 2 HLL 4-6 ERmed hellbringer can poke out, alpha,twist,reverse and be back in cover in the same or less time than. Taking little oor no damage in return. Once a poptart is airborn its totally committed. And they tend to catch hell on the way down. Its just another way to play the game. Not OP at all.

It isn't just poptart, it's also hill humping, side-poking too. The Gauss PPC poke is WAAAAY faster because it doesn't suffer the 1.55s. Unless of course you failed to direct the 1.55s stream of the HLL.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 10 February 2018 - 03:53 PM.

[naterist]

Johnathan Tanner, on 10 February 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

A 2 HLL 4-6 ERmed hellbringer can poke out, alpha,twist,reverse and be back in cover in the same or less time than. Taking little oor no damage in return. Once a poptart is airborn its totally committed. And they tend to catch hell on the way down. Its just another way to play the game. Not OP at all.

LOL, no.