251 replies to this topic

[Sigmar Sich]

Bud Crue, on 12 February 2018 - 04:54 AM, said:

I thought this effort was about a start toward making the game more fun;

Hope so. If the choice is "less broken or nothing", i'll take less broken. I do support the balancing effort.
However, it is not enough to make MWO fun again. And i fear asking for minor changes, without some feature improvements, is just a waste of the momentum "Unfunning of MWO" have created.
It doesn't really matter how nice you paint walls of a building, if basement is flooded with wastes. Such building will be uncomfortable to live anyway, without fixing pipes.

Though i do understand the idea of baby steps, but i'm afraid there will be only one step allowed. For example PGI implements some suggested features, and they will be sure they did everything community wanted, and will be deaf to any next suggestions.

Bud Crue, on 12 February 2018 - 04:54 AM, said:

- About a third of the mechs in the game can do nothing but boat the same style of weapons (e.g. that single head missile point on a Grasshopper just aint gonna cut it for giving the Hopper some variety other than energy weapons, no matter how you buff the thing, and there are dozens of mechs in a similar position). How do you cure the "cancer" when many of the patients (mechs) are the cancer?

Maybe poor choice of words on my part, i meant this - chassis able to monoboat are obvious choice over chassis that can't. I want those non-boats to be a valid option. Ability to boat is a quirk itself (same as hardpoint placement and hitboxes, were "quirks" before quirks were introduced). So there is need to compensate those non-boats, preferably buffing less numerous hardpoint type.
For example, when people say "Bushwacker", they most likely mean P1, with 6 missile hardpoints; not other bushies, because choice is obvious. This is what makes me sad about boating.

[sycocys]

The skill tree part could be easily fixed with a slot item that gained tonnage + slot space based on the amount of node you have active for that mech.

I missed their idea for an energy draw system, but how hard is it to just add another bar with the same basic mechanics as heat system and have it tally energy points out of an assigned column instead of heat? Don't really understand how they could mess that up especially given that it could/would be able to outright replace the silly ghost heat mechanic with even a super simple system. The only real difference it would even have to have is the ability to "lock" weapons when their wasn't enough cap space to fire them.

[Rusharn]

My personal opinion is that, the GH should remain for the Clan weapons but be removed for the IS weapons. The IS have a hard time pulling off the combination due to the weight costs of the Equipment so remove the GH from their Gauss + PPC combos. For the Clan the Gauss + PPC combo I do not think is dead, it's just that the primary "edge" it had requires more skill or more sacrifice to get. Basically it requires you to be an even better marksman, because you have to be on target twice to get the full effect. Getting 50 PPFLD at that range plus 10 splash damage is just too much reward for too little risk. Yes it required some skill to get the timing down, so people that are completely casual or don't bother couldn't use the combination to full effect, but it doesn't take that much skill. It took me about three weeks to get the hang of it and I don't count myself as top tier in the slightest.

Personally if you want to end the laser vomit, give Flamers a match score and XP reward for time on target. Because I have found that one or two flamers can cripple a Laser Vomit machine, especially clan ones, but there is ZERO personal reward for using the weapon as often it is your team that gets to exploit the shut down enemy. Encourage the use of flamers and you can help curb the laser vomit.

[Crazyeyes244]

My two cents are simply this:

2ppc1gauss had plagued the game before and I am saddened to see people advocating for its return. Some have very accurately pointed out that playing it to its fullest potential does indeed require some skill. As a playstyle it does have a fairly high skill ceiling. Unfortunately, such a high poinpoint alpha, at range, with high velocity, and minimal learning curve also results in a very low skill floor. There was a reason it was so widely used before and it will be again. More 'casual', unskilled, noob, whatever you want to call them, pilots will use the build because it is easy to pick up and put up high damage numbers that is actually efficient damage. They may not be MLGPRO team carriers, but it will be rampant.

I for one came back to the game as it is and am having a BLAST with how things have shaken out. Back in the beta days and early release we were having to deal with the growing pains that lead to much of these controversial balance changes. In the end though I think PGI took more steps forwards than back and I believe the community suggestions contain many more steps forwards. Please don't let that get hung up because of an outcry by a few to take one of PGIs forward motions and undo it.

Edited by Crazyeyes244, 12 February 2018 - 07:27 AM.

[process]

I want Gauss+PPC back, inasmuch as I want less dependence on arbitrary or invisible rules, e.g. ghost heat.

I'd rather this fit under a heat system with a hard 30 heat cap. This mean you could do 2 Gauss + 2 PPC, but not ERPPC or heavies. The velocity desync should be good enough. If that's too much, you could say each Gauss mounted above 1 reduces the maximum heat cap by 10, meaning the most you could do is 2 Gauss + 1 PPC.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

50 50, on 11 February 2018 - 06:18 PM, said:

I really dislike that it was a ghost heat link between PPCs and Gauss that was used to limit the combo.
Maybe because the gauss as a low heat weapon it just felt like a dirty solution.

I agree. Gauss has it's problems, but heat really shouldn't be one of them. I've voted to eliminate the heat spike.

I'd also like to get some de-nerfed range back for both the Clan and IS GR. It's supposed to be an apex-class long-range weapon. With the charge-up mechanism and the widely varied velocity, I don't think GR with PPC would break the game if GR were more effective at a distance.

Finally, I want to add that I think map selection is a big part of the overall balance problem. Get rid of it. Hot maps should be something every player should face and, as a result, consider while building. It's too easy as it stands to pack on hot lasers with confidence, knowing you can go 9 out of 10 matches on cold maps.

[Gas Guzzler]

Crazyeyes244, on 12 February 2018 - 07:26 AM, said:

Unfortunately, such a high poinpoint alpha, at range, with high velocity, and minimal learning curve also results in a very low skill floor. There was a reason it was so widely used before and it will be again.

Long range pinpoint alphas are really limited to 35-40 by the proposed change, that isn't that high. And convergence at range can also present issues unless the target is stationary.

And everyone says "so widely used before" but I have yet to see the actual data of how widely it was used just before ghost heat was added. I felt as though it was pretty balanced and I didn't even use it that often right before ghost heat. I mainly used it when I needed a break from laser vomit, as it was a refreshing change of pace, and in the solo queue the Timber was more fun for me than the Night Gyr was. I'm not denying that there WAS a time when it was overpowered and dominant, but it had been reigned in by the time ghost heat came along. I still maintain that it would not be overpowered all of a sudden, but would be a nice improvement of variety.

[Crazyeyes244]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 February 2018 - 09:40 AM, said:

Long range pinpoint alphas are really limited to 35-40 by the proposed change, that isn't that high. And convergence at range can also present issues unless the target is stationary.

And everyone says "so widely used before" but I have yet to see the actual data of how widely it was used just before ghost heat was added.

I would argue that much at that range is indeed too high. Secondly, asking for data is a moot point, both sides know that wouldn't be available. Both arguments are rooted in anecdotal experience at best, and personal feels at worst. Only PGI might have some sorta in house tracking. Fishing for 'data' is simply trying to undermine and individual's argument. You yourself go on to provide personal experience and anecdotal evidence. /shrug

I 100% appreciate the desire to improve the diversity of builds above and beyond laser vomit. However adding the option to do similar high damage alpha but at longer range and with better precision is not the way to do it. You're merely adding a superior build that will easily set the new meta.

[A1Ste4kSauce]

Laser vomit can be twisted against and still needs cooldowns. This is just massive ppfld hits from long distances. Op and many people here really don't care about balance do they? This whole community balance thing is nonsense. Thank goodness PGI usually does their own thing. I play lights so it wouldn't affect me, but you are just asking to further bury brawling. So much entitlement and elitism here...

[Gas Guzzler]

Crazyeyes244, on 12 February 2018 - 10:08 AM, said:

I would argue that much at that range is indeed too high. Secondly, asking for data is a moot point, both sides know that wouldn't be available. Both arguments are rooted in anecdotal experience at best, and personal feels at worst. Only PGI might have some sorta in house tracking. Fishing for 'data' is simply trying to undermine and individual's argument. You yourself go on to provide personal experience and anecdotal evidence. /shrug

I 100% appreciate the desire to improve the diversity of builds above and beyond laser vomit. However adding the option to do similar high damage alpha but at longer range and with better precision is not the way to do it. You're merely adding a superior build that will easily set the new meta.

Of course its based on personal experience and anecdotal evidence, I'm not denying that. I simply trust my personal experience over yours, because I watched Gauss PPC fall out of favor in competitive play in a lot of situations. Even the 2 ER PPC 2 Gauss builds had been surpassed by quad ER PPC Warhawks and Supernovas, but we are only talking about combos of 3 here.

Regarding the added diversity, I'm afraid that 35-40 is MUCH less than alternate loadouts, not a "similar high damage alpha". Yes its at slightly longer range, and is more focused against a stationary target but if the target is moving, convergence often comes into play and its not as precise as you might think. You can routinely see the dual gauss from a Night Gyr hit two different components, especially on lights and mediums, when you try to take full advantage of that longer range.

I know we aren't just adding a superior build, because for the 167th time, it wasn't a superior build when they added ghost heat.

[Gas Guzzler]

A1Ste4kSauce, on 12 February 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Laser vomit can be twisted against and still needs cooldowns. This is just massive ppfld hits from long distances. Op and many people here really don't care about balance do they? This whole community balance thing is nonsense. Thank goodness PGI usually does their own thing. I play lights so it wouldn't affect me, but you are just asking to further bury brawling. So much entitlement and elitism here...

I mean, so much misinformation and ignorance here.

"Massive PPFLD hits" that are only slight larger than the dual gauss portion of a proper gauss vomit build from an assault? Sounds awfully dramatic.

[Daurock]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 February 2018 - 10:38 AM, said:

I mean, so much misinformation and ignorance here.

"Massive PPFLD hits" that are only slight larger than the dual gauss portion of a proper gauss vomit build from an assault? Sounds awfully dramatic.

Gonna be honest, this does bring up a point - Maybe it's not the GH link that's the root problem here?

I mean, let's look at the reason that people want GausPeeps to remain nerfed in the first place - That reason being, there's really not any real strategic counters in the game for mechs built this way - Can't really out-range them, can't really out-trade them, and the Gauss Rifles make them far tougher than most extended ranged builds in a brawl. At best, each of those types of builds will compete, but not easily out-class the Gauss/PPC build. Basically, that singular build can realistically compete at any range, in nearly any situation, given the player has enough skill to consistently put his shots into one section.

Now that that's said, let's look at GaussVomit for a moment - It shares nearly all the same aspects - Namely, that if the player driving the mech can aim, it's VERY tough to put it in a position where he's at a disadvantage - that's the real driving reason why it's used at a high level. Unlike Pure laser vomit, or various dakka, brawling, etc. builds, it too has no specific situation where the mech will pretty much fold over to a mech that catches him flat-footed. (Like, for example, a pure laser vomit will get shredded by a Brawling build if the brawler manages to get the drop on the laserBoat.) Much like the dreaded Gauss/PPC combo, this build is very much a danger at all ranges and situations.

So, back to the main question - What to do about Gauss/PPC? From my observation, the actual problem is not really the damage, range, etc. The real problem is the Versatility of the build, once you get to a high enough level of skill. Because of that, if it were up to me, I'd only really up the ghost heat limits if we ALSO added an actual achille's Heel to the build. Personally, I'd make that Achille's heel to be brawling, much as it is for all long range trading type builds. In order to do that, We need to address the gauss rifle, because at brawling ranges, It's the real danger due to it's heat-free damage, and very high accuracy. I'd probably put in a strong Gauss Reload nerf, in the neighborhood of a cycle time of 10 or so seconds, close to what you find the pure LaserVomits typically running. Coupled with upping the ghost heat limits, such a move would make them actually vulnerable at short range, while retaining the Pop-Tarty, snipey play style so coveted by some players.

[Crazyeyes244]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 February 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Of course its based on personal experience and anecdotal evidence, I'm not denying that. I simply trust my personal experience over yours, because I watched Gauss PPC fall out of favor in competitive play in a lot of situations. Even the 2 ER PPC 2 Gauss builds had been surpassed by quad ER PPC Warhawks and Supernovas, but we are only talking about combos of 3 here.

Regarding the added diversity, I'm afraid that 35-40 is MUCH less than alternate loadouts, not a "similar high damage alpha". Yes its at slightly longer range, and is more focused against a stationary target but if the target is moving, convergence often comes into play and its not as precise as you might think. You can routinely see the dual gauss from a Night Gyr hit two different components, especially on lights and mediums, when you try to take full advantage of that longer range.

I know we aren't just adding a superior build, because for the 167th time, it wasn't a superior build when they added ghost heat.

So if gauss/PPC fell out of favor in competitive circles, why advocate for its return if its removal only improved the public queue? I too watched the meta shift over time, and in my superior personal experience believe that the average game improved due to the loss of the gaussPPC meta.

[C E Dwyer]

You do realise that by asking for this, you almost certainly will get P.G.I lowering the velocity of both Gauss and P.P.C's

Which will reduce the number of people that will benefit, due to manyies inability to lead a slower projectile, and make this an advantage for a select few, and as a result, make the game less fun for those that can currently lead enough or at least hit the mech somewhere.

This will further reduce the game numbers and income of those people that don't have these skills and a feel its an unfair advantage.

While I agree something needs to be done to increase the enjoyment level, it feels to me that, again the top players are thinking only of themselves, and don't seem to care about the impact on the community as a whole.

I do think what your trying to do has merit, but if you ignore the needs of the majority, and many of you do use contemptuous words, expecting others to just follow what you desire.

All it will result in, will be less money being spent, less population, and an even slower development of the product your trying to improve.

Edited by Cathy, 12 February 2018 - 11:49 AM.

[YueFei]

Gas Guzzler, on 12 February 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

Of course its based on personal experience and anecdotal evidence, I'm not denying that. I simply trust my personal experience over yours, because I watched Gauss PPC fall out of favor in competitive play in a lot of situations. Even the 2 ER PPC 2 Gauss builds had been surpassed by quad ER PPC Warhawks and Supernovas, but we are only talking about combos of 3 here.

Regarding the added diversity, I'm afraid that 35-40 is MUCH less than alternate loadouts, not a "similar high damage alpha". Yes its at slightly longer range, and is more focused against a stationary target but if the target is moving, convergence often comes into play and its not as precise as you might think. You can routinely see the dual gauss from a Night Gyr hit two different components, especially on lights and mediums, when you try to take full advantage of that longer range.

I know we aren't just adding a superior build, because for the 167th time, it wasn't a superior build when they added ghost heat.

Re-posting the math I did in another thread that proves this:
Gauss+PPC combinations: Gauss is 2000 meters/sec, cERPPC is 1500 meters/sec.
Assuming you take full velocity nodes in the skill tree, you get Gauss at 2300 meters/sec, and cERPPC at 1725 meters/sec.

Shooting at a laterally-moving target at 500 meters, the Gauss will arrive in 217 milliseconds, the PPC hits in 289 milliseconds. That's a difference of 72 milliseconds.

Even assuming perfect convergence, a target moving laterally at even a measely 50 kph (13.88 meters/sec) will travel 1 meter in that 72 millisecond timespan. If the Gauss slug was perfectly aimed into the center of a hitbox, and the hitbox is 2 meters wide, the following PPC projectile will strike the adjacent hitbox instead of the same hitbox, breaking up the PPFLD alpha across multiple hitboxes.

Of course, it's still possible that the Gauss leads slightly ahead to strike more to the side of the hitbox, and then the following PPC projectile hits the same hitbox as the Gauss.

Keep in mind of couse that in this example, the mech is only moving 50 kph.

Essentially, if Gauss+PPC becomes a problem and damage cannot be spread by lateral movement, the problem can be solved by further differentiating Gauss and PPC projectile velocities. I would not be in favor of nerfing velocity, so differentiating them further in this case would mean speeding up the Gauss a bit more.

Edited by YueFei, 12 February 2018 - 12:03 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Crazyeyes244, on 12 February 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

So if gauss/PPC fell out of favor in competitive circles, why advocate for its return if its removal only improved the public queue? I too watched the meta shift over time, and in my superior personal experience believe that the average game improved due to the loss of the gaussPPC meta.

Because it unlocks some fun mech loadouts? Stuff can be fun and effective without being the best choice in competitive play.

[Gas Guzzler]

Daurock, on 12 February 2018 - 11:35 AM, said:

Gonna be honest, this does bring up a point - Maybe it's not the GH link that's the root problem here?

I mean, let's look at the reason that people want GausPeeps to remain nerfed in the first place - That reason being, there's really not any real strategic counters in the game for mechs built this way - Can't really out-range them, can't really out-trade them, and the Gauss Rifles make them far tougher than most extended ranged builds in a brawl.

This isn't true though. A brawler gets in range, and its GG close unless that brawler is one shot from death. There certainly were strategic counters at the time that ghost heat was introduced to the combo, so the premise of your point here is flawed. You CAN out range them with ER LL or ER PPC boats. You CAN out trade them at closer ranges with Gauss vomit, and you certainly can out-brawl them. They don't have the DPS and typically don't have the agility to brawl well (especially in the case of the Night Gyr.)

[SteelHoves]

i voted no for bringing back the old Gauss PPC combos.

in QP i never had to much of a problem with poptart gyrs and his friends. A usual QP match had 1 or 2 mechs doing that so not much of an issue here. My Big problem with it was in FW. I fondly remember walking in gates on Boreal, Grim portico and hellbore where we would lose 2 to 3 mech by head shots or cored ct due to Pop tarting or sniping Gauss PPC combos.( we did the same junk while in our clan mechs) Not an issue VS pug teams but was a giant issue vs an organized team. This was way more popular on the clan side being how much easier it was to do.

Now for the guy who did all the math about how the combo isnt pinpoint damage. his math is based on a mech moving horizontally to him. now if you have a mech who is movie straight at or at only a slight angle it is still 100% pin point. Not much of an issue in QP but in FW where there are maps and modes that dictate the mechs will be moving straight at you it becomes an issue.

i would not be against it if it was locked in to QP but we all know that is impossible.

Edited by SteelHoves, 12 February 2018 - 12:32 PM.

[tokumboh]

My conclusion in listening to all of these conversations about balance and unfunning and having watched many people streaming for a while is the following.


1. This is not a balance issue, it is fun issue people confuse the two

I watched Juju Shinobi stream with the DRG buffs to mobility and LPL duration. For him it was great the mech was really fast and the duration on the laser was hellishly short. basically he could fire more hit more and yes for him more enjoyable. So THAT in itself has nothing to do with balance per se it has everything to do with what people perceive as fun/enjoyment.

I used to play military flight sims Falcon 4.0 F/A 18 being the two biggest the line between realistic physics and fun is something of a artform. Landing a F16 is hard it undercarriage is actually not very sturdy, you need to aero brake and you need to come in rather shallow. Many people has real problems landing in the first versions and it was not fun. So it was patched and was it more or less real I have no idea but i would have presumed they made the landing similar to that of a real F16. Now you could say the 'brown sea' complained and they changed it to make it easier but easier was more fun for most people.

Now considering the issue of weapons balance, I think that taragato et al changes amount to not much across the board indeed one person did a spreadsheet to show that in truth it made little difference at all to the all of builds he tested it on so I do not think it will achieve balance. Will it make it fun? I have no idea some people's view of fun is completely different to someone else's. Now if Gauss/PPC was available again would I use it? I would say yes because lots of people would use it, in the same way if you want a good game you have to be able to compete and the problem we have is not the weapons balance per se or even the skill mismatch (something I think is more important) but I think it is the maps. Most maps make the engagement start at long range, and move to close range when one or other side gets the advantage in terms of attrition. Close quarter battle tend to occur by accident, either some lights catch a lone assault or a lone light get caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

I watched the MWOWC where EMP beat EON, EON in one game tried to sneak a close quarter battle with their heavies and assault in one match and they failed because they were spotted, EMP rotated away the lights got in some damage and the some added arty/air strikes and it was all over, Early close quarter battle does not happen in MWO and hence you don't take a knife to a gun fight tends to be the argument. Thy were more successful when they basically out traded EMP

Now if you believe that fun is heavies and assaults brawling each other down it some massive melee, that does not happen as much in the comp play I have seen.

simply put some one said they want the rock paper scissors effect with the different play styles. I personally think that the proble is the environment we seem to have tends to favour certain playstyles indeed some maps purposely have a chasm that one or other side has to cross. So Frozen City, Alpine Peaks, Grim Plexus are all explictly long range maps trying to get to a point of brawling either means taking a very long route and being unseen (which means scouts just not doing a good job) or facing a 400m of open terrain to get to the enemy. Simply put adding gauss/ppc does not change the dynamic of the game and if the reality is that we want the mechs to be more agile have more firepower (since we are asking for more pinpoint firepower at range here ) then we should say that.

In my view PGI did what we asked for:

1. WE said that some mech were the wrong size, so they did the math with volumetric scaling now it is clear that what we have is mathematically correct but it is not fun. mediums scaling is a problem because volumetric scaling may be of any help since engine armour chassis weapons should be different densities and you could make it very complex.

2 We wanted desync, because we didn't want assaults with the agility of mediums so we got them all slowed and people did not like the nerf but it was what we asked for we wanted thing of a certain weight class to behave similarly and now we are say well yes but no you did not do it the way we wanted. Well how do we want it.

I could go on but my view is that the funning seems to be even more complex than the balancing, even more nebulous, and moreover will leave the community equally divided, You could blame it on potatoes, the brown sea etc but actually I would just shrug my shoulders. Personally I would like a brawling map, solaris and worry less about if the weapons are balanced, because basically you cannot get balance it is mythical, you have situational advantage and that is more complex

[Gyrok]

Rusharn, on 12 February 2018 - 07:13 AM, said:

My personal opinion is that, the GH should remain for the Clan weapons but be removed for the IS weapons. The IS have a hard time pulling off the combination due to the weight costs of the Equipment so remove the GH from their Gauss + PPC combos. For the Clan the Gauss + PPC combo I do not think is dead, it's just that the primary "edge" it had requires more skill or more sacrifice to get. Basically it requires you to be an even better marksman, because you have to be on target twice to get the full effect. Getting 50 PPFLD at that range plus 10 splash damage is just too much reward for too little risk. Yes it required some skill to get the timing down, so people that are completely casual or don't bother couldn't use the combination to full effect, but it doesn't take that much skill. It took me about three weeks to get the hang of it and I don't count myself as top tier in the slightest.

Personally if you want to end the laser vomit, give Flamers a match score and XP reward for time on target. Because I have found that one or two flamers can cripple a Laser Vomit machine, especially clan ones, but there is ZERO personal reward for using the weapon as often it is your team that gets to exploit the shut down enemy. Encourage the use of flamers and you can help curb the laser vomit.

Too much reward for too little risk?

1.) The projectiles do not even travel at remotely the same speed. GR is ~2000m/s projectile, while most PPCs are 1300-1400m/s. That means to get all the damage on the same panel requires fantastic timing, especially at longer ranges like 700-800m. If you are off much at all, you miss with part or all of your volley, and now you get nothing for that shot.

2.) The charge up on the GR requires you to either be precharged and guess when your target will poke, or it requires your target to be out of cover for more than 0.75 seconds. That means you can potentially get 50-75% of an entire laser damage volley onto a GR/PPC mech before he can unload the GRs.

3.) None of the clan mechs that can actually run any of those builds actually has any mobility left.

The KDK3 and the NTG have essentially the same mobility...(which is to say, the Statue of Liberty would lap them in a 3 cone drill). None of the other mechs that could pull it off have hardpoints remotely as good as those 2 mechs, and they *still* have horrible mobility. Now, if you want to go about restoring mobility to those mechs, the onus for that is on you. However, as it stands, those mechs are unviable with any loadout. When was the last time you saw a KDK or NTG in comp play? 2016? Huh...funny that.

Edited by Gyrok, 12 February 2018 - 01:26 PM.