251 replies to this topic

[Jarl Dane]

Asym, on 11 February 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

OP, I need a simple question answered: to what end?

...

I am just curious as to why? I look forwawrd to your thoughts.

Have you not eyes to see? Can you not see where you are? What is happening? What people are doing?

"Why!?" you ask, "Why!?", you inquire; let me tell you why...

Because people care. How many angry, intrepid posts have been written on this subject? How much sweat, frustration and napkin math has been poured into this problem? More, I'd guess, then many others.

We bring this back because people love it, because they want it, because they miss it, because they want to have fun with it again. Or we table it because people despise it, because they hated it before, because they are glad its gone and because they want it to stay that way.

Either way, people care, and so long as enough of them care its our due diligence to give them a chance to be heard and a chance to articulate their argument.

Edited by Mech The Dane, 11 February 2018 - 02:46 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Even when we had Gauss+2CERPPC on Timberwolves, they were not filled the brim in DHS.

but they still have way more DHS than an equivalent IS mech with the same size engine could have

thats the relevant bit

CDHS are significantly better than ISDHS because they can pack more DHS into the same number of crit slots

Quote

Let's pretend that suddenly the Clams got to equip the IS ERPPC with their smaller Dubs. Would you consider it to be weaker, better, or equal to the Clam ERPPC in this condition?

well the ISERPPC would give the same PPFLD for less heat and better velocity. It also means not having to take a targeting computer.

so in the specific capacity of doing PPFLD at long range the ISERPPC would be better than the CERPPC.

but if were talking total damage, the CERPPC is better, because of splash damage. But the actual lethality of splash damage is highly debateable. I personally dont believe splash damage contributes all that much towards killing mechs. The 10 PPFLD is the far more relevant portion of the damage.

suffice to say the ISERPPC is not strictly worse than the CERPPC. it has its share of advantages over the CERPPC. Which makes the ISERPPC and CERPPC better balanced than most IS vs Clan weapons. Remember IS get all their PPC quirks too, so you need to take those into account as well.

the ISERPPC falls short mostly as a result of ISDHS not being able to keep up with the heat.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 03:10 PM.

[Khobai]

So after thinking about this for a while, my main opposition to bringing back Gauss/PPC combos lies with the clan gauss rifle. Because its a full 3 tons lighter than the IS gauss rifle. Or 6 tons lighter for a pair of them.

It reminded me of something I suggested in the past.

Which was to make the Clan Gauss rifle do 12 damage, but with the longer range and faster rate of fire of a light gauss.

That also assumed light gauss was bumped upto 10 damage (its useless at 8 damage)

Essentially the clan gauss would be transformed into a hybrid light gauss/gauss that does less PPFLD damage but fires faster and with longer range.

I would be okay with a ghost heat limit of x3 on a CGauss that only does 12 damage.

You could probably unnerf some agility on the Night Gyr then too.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 03:44 PM.

[TheHolyLancer]

I am 100% for it. Provided the other changes are brought back (IE dakka and brawl).

Namely, it brings back peek, currently even gauss vom is less peek and more stare.

So you'd have this play where, gauss/ppc can peek you actively for 50 alphas, or you can bring gauss vom for higher alpha but you have to stay on target and expose more, and you can get dpsed down if you were caught in the open-ish by dakka, and if a brawler closes in on you they can alpha you off the field.

Gauss vom (IE 2 gauss + 2 HLL + 4 ERML) or laser vom (2 HLL + 6 ERML) should have less sustained burst than brawl (2x LBX20 + 4x SRMA6), with gauss ppc (2 gauss + 2 ppc) being the instant option that allow you to try and outplay and shield with damage rolling but weaker alpha than either brawl or gauss vom. And then bring back the dak for really position punishment and hopefully work RACs into that style as well, to punish people who position badly.


I am also 100% suggesting that to balance clan and IS, bring back mega quirks. If the skill tree is staying, we need mega quirks back to bring some fun IS mechs (UAC dragon?) into play. Or just go with mixed tech, just stop with this nonsense because by the time we are in, mechs with mixed tech is happening way more regularity beyond battlefield salvage and other "special" circumstances.

Edited by TheHolyLancer, 11 February 2018 - 03:37 PM.

[DevlinCognito]

Bring Mix-Tech into the game and yes, if not, no.

[NRP]

I'm kinda torn. On one hand, I kind of want all the arbitrary restrictions removed. Let people run whatever they want.

On the other hand, the poptart "meta" was kind of a drag. If it came back, I don't think the current laser vomit meta could effectively counter it. Maybe just impose the proposed limits if the mech has JJs?

[Gas Guzzler]

I think it should come back. Night Gyrs can be out maneuvered, and everything else (2ppc Gauss) is obviously not an issue. 35 PPFLD is easily obtained yet is barely ever used.

NRP, on 11 February 2018 - 03:54 PM, said:

I'm kinda torn. On one hand, I kind of want all the arbitrary restrictions removed. Let people run whatever they want.

On the other hand, the poptart "meta" was kind of a drag. If it came back, I don't think the current laser vomit meta could effectively counter it. Maybe just impose the proposed limits if the mech has JJs?

The best poptart mechs use 2 cER PPCs and nothing else, so...

Asym, on 11 February 2018 - 02:19 PM, said:

OP, I need a simple question answered: to what end?

I am in favor or making excellent long range weapons effective since they have a real purpose....

What I'm not sure of is to what end? FP is dead. Solaris won't need them. Comp and individual lobbies would use them. QP is QP and that mode of play has no reason to exist since there isn't a goal: just a place to play....???

Why have PGI spend a penny on weapons vis-a-vis new maps?

Strategically, from an older player perspective, why? Being a newer player, I'm not sure anymore because there's really no reason anymore, outside of events, to even entertain FP ?

I am just curious as to why? I look forwawrd to your thoughts.

Because it offers yet another playstyle that is different and therefore interesting.

[TheHolyLancer]

Also, I'd like to add, any system where it does not emphasis skill gap for a PvP game is bad.

It assume that people never improves, and means that once you get to some low skill ceiling you lose interest in the game. And leave. And we have a fairly large player retention issue too.

Sure, existing players who refuse to improve (I am thinking of many), or is unable to will scream murder, but that is why there should be a proper match maker who will put people in the right matches. Which for now may mean we can only have 8v8 sized or even 4v4 sized matches.

IE, if they refused to improve, they need their own corner of the match maker to play. If they are good, they need their own corner, and the rest in the middle.

[The6thMessenger]

I voted yes. But to be clear, i wanted it back in a way that it's not exactly that cool, but not as hot as before. It's something that still generates ghost-heat, but is just cool enough to get away with. I'm even fine with 2x ERPPC + 2x Gauss -- but the catch is that it's only done frequently on cool maps, or it's something you can only alpha as much as a laser vomit.

Edited by The6thMessenger, 11 February 2018 - 04:09 PM.

[Sjorpha]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

The IS problem has more to do with PGI's poor balance for IS PPCs for the longest of time. This is why noone talks about the IS ER PPC... it sucks at everything compared to everything else that competes in its position (range, heat, tonnage, crits, etc - everything that the Clan ERPPC is better in for the most part).

Not at all, the problem is that there is no jumping IS heavy or light assault that can comfortably use dual gauss plus 1 or 2 PPCs

And the reason isn't because no chassis could do it, it's because IS XL can't be used with IS gauss in any reasonable way and because IS gauss is 15 tons and bigger. It simply doesn't add up to good builds on any chassis.

Spheroid, on 11 February 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

@SJorpha: I don't know why you say the I.S. has no poptart platforms. With the greater drop deck weight Highlanders could come back into vogue especially if they are overquirked as in the days of old.

Its not like a Night Gyr handles better than a Highlander! Also potentially the Dragon Slayer could fit the bill.

It's also not like those mechs can even build 2gauss/1ppc in the first place, and also not like they have comparable hardpoint placement or jump height.

I guess the loyalty victor could technically do it, though not with anywhere near the jump height and hardpoint placement of the night gyr, but i really doubt it can do it well. Even so it's not available to the public yet.

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 February 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

What about this man? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed4315e7b1e6380

I think something like this could be interesting for the IS in FW.

Well, if THAT is the best counterpart to the night gyr, I think you just proved my point.

Look, I'm talking specifically about dual gauss + 1/2 peeps here, not about 1gauss/2ppc which IS can do decently (though not as well as clans by any stretch) and there is simply no IS poptarting mech that does 2gauss/1peep well.

I think this is a pretty strong argument at least against allowing 2gauss/1peep. I'm saying this as someone who actually liked the playstyle and would want it back, but it has to be good on both sides. If it's done along with a strong enough buff to IS gauss to ACTUALLY being worth 3 tons more than cgauss, then maybe it could work out. But I don't see a buff in that order of magnitude in the suggestion, and I'm not currently willing to give clans in FP the 12ntg poptart wave option with IS having nothing like it to match up, I don't beleive the build is that handicapped by low agility and I do remember it being oppressive in FP matches having played both with and against it.

Don't get me wrong I want to say yes, just solve this problem for me and I'll vote yes without hesitation.

[DevlinCognito]

Sjorpha, on 11 February 2018 - 04:08 PM, said:

/Snip

Sjorpha said it more eloquently than I ever could.

[Y E O N N E]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

Again, you're dependent on PGI getting it right.

No more than any other suggested solution on Taro's list.

Dogstar, on 11 February 2018 - 12:39 PM, said:

Could you not just fire them one after the other?!

Then what is the point? The entire desire is minimal exposure, using a quick 35-40 point blast to combat a laser burns with twice the power and twice the exposure. Stagger fire is what we have now and, guess what? Nobody would even consider using a Gauss+PPC build to combat laser vomit because the exposure is the same for half the power.

The skill comes in being able to hit the target consistently with projectiles. Stagger fire doesn't increase the amount of skill it takes to use the combo, it just makes the combo incapable of exploiting its strengths in any way.

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

CDHS are significantly better than ISDHS because they can pack more DHS into the same number of crit slots

FYI, I've been told that weakening cDHS is on the table. Supposedly they are looking at 0.12-0.13 per, though that leaves the "WTF do we do with SHS" question.

[ANOM O MECH]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 11:37 AM, said:

There is one more solution for YES:

4. 1x Gauss + 2xPPC is allowed. 3x PPC is not allowed. 2x Gauss is not allowed (either ridiculously steep penalty or charge block). 2x Gauss + 2x PPC is not allowed (because 2x Gauss is not allowed).

Incidentally, this solution also nerfs gigantic Gauss-Vomit alphas from the Clan side; the MCII-DS would be limited to only 75 using HLL, 63 using ERLL. It would also, however, nerf the IS versions of the same, e.g. Nightstar can't do 63 but is now stuck doing 52. But the Banshee can still get to 67.

Not allowing 2x gauss would suck for my Whammy 6R.

I'd like to see the combo's be limited to three (1ppc/2gr, 2ppc/1gr).

Kind of on the fence where I'd like to see IS ppc limit at three due to their cost and Clan keep 2 but reduction in ghost heat so three is possible but not spamable...

Main thing is sick of entire play styles being wiped out.

[Y E O N N E]

3x cERPPC is already possible, but not spammable. Say hello to the Warhawk.

[blackcatf]

I'd like to either see gauss charge go away -OR- have them only explode if on a critical hit if they're charged at the time.

[Dracol]

I am of the opinion that Mechwarrior is more enjoyable as a game of attrition and so voted NO.

The changes over the last few years has helped increase TTK. It has been a lot of fun watching matches come down to a handful of mechs, beaten and falling apart, weapons missing, try to secure a kill before their last leg falls off. Gauss/PPC ghost heat has been one of the items that has contributed to my increased fun playing MWO.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dracol, on 11 February 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

I am of the opinion that Mechwarrior is more enjoyable as a game of attrition and so voted NO.

The changes over the last few years has helped increase TTK. It has been a lot of fun watching matches come down to a handful of mechs, beaten and falling apart, weapons missing, try to secure a kill before their last leg falls off. Gauss/PPC ghost heat has been one of the items that has contributed to my increased fun playing MWO.

I'm not seeing the causal link of banning a 35 damage PPFLD loadout with raising TTK, when there are 30 PPFLD + 50-64 DoT alphas out there, but hey what do I know.

[Navid A1]

Dracol, on 11 February 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

I am of the opinion that Mechwarrior is more enjoyable as a game of attrition and so voted NO.

The changes over the last few years has helped increase TTK. It has been a lot of fun watching matches come down to a handful of mechs, beaten and falling apart, weapons missing, try to secure a kill before their last leg falls off. Gauss/PPC ghost heat has been one of the items that has contributed to my increased fun playing MWO.

You are assuming that TTK is increased. In game I have no problem cutting down targets in one or two shots with an 80+ alpha mech.
I can do that because I'm not worried about any sniper mechs. They all died in June

[The6thMessenger]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

FYI, I've been told that weakening cDHS is on the table. Supposedly they are looking at 0.12-0.13 per, though that leaves the "WTF do we do with SHS" question.

Increase heat-capacity by a lot i guess?

[InvictusLee]

Listen man.
Its bad enough Hgauss can sheer entire arms and shoulders off my assault mechs.
I dont want to be one shot from across the map in a medium or light.