251 replies to this topic

[Y E O N N E]

The6thMessenger, on 11 February 2018 - 05:14 PM, said:

Increase heat-capacity by a lot i guess?

Maybe, but the problem is that SHS are already 0.12 dissipation.

[R Valentine]

Hell no on gauss + PCC. It's such a low risk, high reward play style. Any monkey and jump jet a Night Gyr and land 45 damage PPFLD from 700 meters, especially on slow, fat assaults. Pop tarts have always been a broken concept in this game. They had to nerf virtually every early mech's jump jets because of it. Then came the Night Gyr and broke it again. There were other viable Night Gyr builds before the Gauss+PPC nerf. There must still be some now.

[UnofficialOperator]

You guys are missing the point entirely.

Step 1: Redo Tier/PSR/MM with zero upward bias.

Step 2: Let Tier 5 matches have 80% damage mitigation. Tier 4 have 60% damage mitigation. Tier 3 have 40% damage mitigation. Tier 2 have 20% damage mitigation. Tier 1 have 0% damage mitigation. (Or any variation of damage mitigation/ghost heat implementation for all weapons or just gauss ppc)

You are simply am unable to balance with 1 value across the different tiers as the lower tiers are simply that bad at the games Look at LRMs as an example of how different it works in T5 and in T1.

Why does no one see this?

[Deathlike]

Adjusting behaviors thru Tier-stat manipulation is not a real solution. There's potential for abuse, but also complete manipulation of the system.

Just running an alt account for the purposes of comp play is all sorts of broken.

[UnofficialOperator]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 05:31 PM, said:

Adjusting behaviors thru Tier-stat manipulation is not a real solution. There's potential for abuse, but also complete manipulation of the system.

Just running an alt account for the purposes of comp play is all sorts of broken.

Its a F2P game. You cannot avoid this just as many other F2P games cannot avoid this alt issue. The only way is to accelerate them out of T5.

What do you mean by running an alt account for comp play? You mean those leaderboards with giveaways?

[Stonefalcon]

Say PGI gives in and opens up the use again of any 4 combo of Gauss+PPC. The only mech you will see me run is:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...efcc5ed042071ac

Any restriction applied to this 4 way combo needs to be copied through to the main forms of PPC, that being regular, ER and Heavy. A 60PPFLD with good cooling is just way too strong, throw it on a mech with more armour than a presidential bunker and you won't care if you can't move fast, stuff will just die.

As much as I would love to see the Annihilator grow more powerful than you could possibly imagine, I just cannot see this game suffer any more than it currently does with it's struggling pop.

[Stinger554]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

3x cERPPC is already possible, but not spammable. Say hello to the Warhawk.

This is my biggest issue with this whole thing about bringing back gauss/PPC...it never left. It's the almost the exact same thing as running 3-4x PPCs, which is still viable to do.

What was killed was the poptarting 40+ alphas. <---that's what these guys want back; they just don't want to say it directly.

[Tlords]

Stinger554, on 11 February 2018 - 05:57 PM, said:

This is my biggest issue with this whole thing about bringing back gauss/PPC...it never left. It's the almost the exact same thing as running 3-4x PPCs, which is still viable to do.

What was killed was the poptarting 40+ alphas. <---that's what these guys want back; they just don't want to say it directly.

I couldn't agree more. Poptarting 45 damage alphas need to stay dead, with no resurrection.

I don't see what the issue is... with wanting to run a 2 gauss assault with 2 PPCs. I do it today... I fire my PPCs, hold down the button 0.75 seconds later 2 gauss rounds go down range.

My goal is limiting laser vomit. GIve it the same restrictions as 2 Gauss / PPC. Make the vomiters have to fire twice to achieve the same effect without ghost heat. Makes sense to me!

[Drunk Canuck]

Fleeb the Mad, on 11 February 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

I vote no.

The main reason is that present ghost heat groups are not made up for competing with 45-point trigger pulls. I personally don't want to empower long range gameplay even more than it presently is by changing ghost heat groupings on all the associated weapons to make it a balanced solution.

Two Gauss, two cER PPC, 3 ERLLas and then 2 cERLLas and 2 ER PPC all top out at 30 damage or (significantly) less. There is only one set of these that are effective when used together and that's Gauss + PPC. No matter which flavor of combination you choose, it's a 45 damage front-loaded hit that's far and above what the other ghost heat combinations are balanced for.

Including Gauss + 2 PPC, 2 Gauss + PPC or 2 Gauss + 2 PPC necessitates changing all of the above to provide more competitive options. If you do not, then long range gameplay returns to being a Gauss + PPC snipe fest as it was before the energy rebalance, as it's a one-sidedly better combination on most mechs. It's also rather biased in favor of Clan machines which have a far easier time coming up with the payload and heat sink needs.

I'm against this personally because long range dominated gameplay is frankly static and uninteresting. All solutions to that particular problem involve power creep by making mid and short range options more powerful. Much more powerful than they presently are if long range receives a substantial buff. Creating a perpetual buffing cycle will just take us right back to where we already were, with TTK problems and no obvious solutions except widespread nerfing.

Honestly, it's simpler for everybody to just leave it gone.

Actually, you would be incorrect. Clan ER PPC's top out at 20 pin point damage and another 10 points spread between components. On a heat per DPS ratio, the Clan ER PPC offers no advantage over a Heavy Large Laser aside from having a longer optimal range. It would be fine to retain the heat penalty link if Clan ER PPC's were made to do 15 pin point damage. That way, you choose using more tonnage and no heat for dual Gauss or you choose no ammo and lots of heat for dual ER PPC's, which still have travel time. Compared to Heavy Large based laser vomit though, Gauss ER PPC combos are a joke for instantaneous damage because you still have to deal with travel time, the other is just shorter distances.

[50 50]

I really dislike that it was a ghost heat link between PPCs and Gauss that was used to limit the combo.
Maybe because the gauss as a low heat weapon it just felt like a dirty solution.
It also means that more emphasis is then placed on the heat sinks and we start to see other factors come into it.

The concept of Energy Draw as a separate mechanic for dealing with high energy weapons, which Gauss and PPCs are, would seem like a more elegant way to limit this combo as well as the laser builds.

[Sjorpha]

One more thing also, since the biggest risk factors are Night Gyr, Kodiak 3 and mechs like that and the argument for why it would be fine seems to be that their agility is so horrible that it would be ok, wouldn't this create a situation where their agility would have to stay horrible? There would no longer be a good argument for making these mechs playable again with other builds, right?

If you had to choose between (potentially) getting workable agility back on your Night Gyr and Kodiak, OR getting your Gauss/peep builds back, which one would you choose?

IMO it would be very nice if this whole weapon balance push goes down well and the next one could deal with chassis balance and as a part of that giving workable agility back to the mechs that got made sluggish because of things like Gauss/ppc etc but are now just bad. PGI might be willing to give back the gauss/ppc builds OR workable agility on night gyr/kodiak/timber etc but they won't do both, especially since **** agility is the argument used by proponents here for allowing gauss/ppc.

[Drunk Canuck]

November11th, on 11 February 2018 - 05:17 PM, said:

Listen man.
Its bad enough Hgauss can sheer entire arms and shoulders off my assault mechs.
I dont want to be one shot from across the map in a medium or light.

Then maybe you shouldn't stand still. Dual Heavy Gauss is even more brutal, within optimum range of course. Gauss has already had it's optimal range reduced quite a bit even though it's supposed to be a long range weapon. That nerf didn't fix much now did it? If you are in a light, use your speed and agility. If you are in a light that is slow as **** like a Cougar, Adder or Kit Fox, then positioning and staying with the big boys is essential to survival. As a former comp light pilot (not a good one mind you), I can tell you that half of being successful in a light is to just keep moving and not get caught out in the open by bigger enemies.

[Khobai]

Tlords, on 11 February 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

I couldn't agree more. Poptarting 45 damage alphas need to stay dead, with no resurrection.

I don't see what the issue is... with wanting to run a 2 gauss assault with 2 PPCs. I do it today... I fire my PPCs, hold down the button 0.75 seconds later 2 gauss rounds go down range.

My goal is limiting laser vomit. GIve it the same restrictions as 2 Gauss / PPC. Make the vomiters have to fire twice to achieve the same effect without ghost heat. Makes sense to me!

What do you consider the problem?

The poptarting (i.e the ability to fire weapons while jumping)?

Or the 40+5 PPFLD?

Would you be okay with x3 Gauss/PPC if you couldnt fire heavy weapons while jumping? For example if gauss was disabled while jumping (you could still fire PPCs while jumping though)

Sjorpha, on 11 February 2018 - 06:21 PM, said:

One more thing also, since the biggest risk factors are Night Gyr, Kodiak 3 and mechs like that and the argument for why it would be fine seems to be that their agility is so horrible that it would be ok, wouldn't this create a situation where their agility would have to stay horrible? There would no longer be a good argument for making these mechs playable again with other builds, right?

If you had to choose between (potentially) getting workable agility back on your Night Gyr and Kodiak, OR getting your Gauss/peep builds back, which one would you choose?

IMO it would be very nice if this whole weapon balance push goes down well and the next one could deal with chassis balance and as a part of that giving workable agility back to the mechs that got made sluggish because of things like Gauss/ppc etc but are now just bad. PGI might be willing to give back the gauss/ppc builds OR workable agility on night gyr/kodiak/timber etc but they won't do both, especially since **** agility is the argument used by proponents here for allowing gauss/ppc.

Thats the same conclusion I reached

If PPC/Gauss stays where its at now, then we can unnerf the agility and jumpjets for all the nerfed heavy+

But if PPC/Gauss is buffed to ghost heat limit of 3, the agility and jumpjets will have to stay nerfed on all those mechs

We can have half the poptart equation. But not both halves.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 06:37 PM.

[Deathlike]

UnofficialOperator, on 11 February 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

Its a F2P game. You cannot avoid this just as many other F2P games cannot avoid this alt issue. The only way is to accelerate them out of T5.

What do you mean by running an alt account for comp play? You mean those leaderboards with giveaways?

Think hard about it.

We're not talking about leaderboard farming. Noone cares in the grand scheme of things.

You're legitimizing "damage profiles" for people who can't aim, and then giving more people whining excuses to "why is he taking so much less damage" when the actual problem is aim and/or lag. It's already an existing problem that multiple tiers are getting mixed by the MM due to poor population, but now you're making it harder to determine fact from fiction.

That and if you had a Tier 4 profile that can be used for comp play (you'd pay MC to change names, so it's not complicated to do if you have $$$ to spend), you'd already affect the outcomes (assuming PGI isn't lazy enough to put an option disable your damage-Tier adjustment).

People have to eventually play and deal with the consequences of getting good or not getting good.

[Kubernetes]

Good god yes bring it back. Aren’t you all sick of the bland laser vomit meta? Everything gets nerfed to oblivion so that’s all we have left. Now you all want to nerf lasers too. My solution is to roll back all the nerfs. Make it all viable and deadly.

The GH and constant nerfing are stupid. Look at the pitiful state of the game now, with half the mechs virtually unplayable and half the weapons utter garbage. Know how we got here? Because the legions of moron spuds constantly calling to nerf anything that works. PGI should release a mod for all you guys: every weapon does 1 dmg, cone of fire RNG, and has a 10 second cooldown. Your perfect “thinking man’s shooter” with incredible TTK, you guys would love it.

[Dracol]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 February 2018 - 04:59 PM, said:

I'm not seeing the causal link of banning a 35 damage PPFLD loadout with raising TTK, when there are 30 PPFLD + 50-64 DoT alphas out there, but hey what do I know.

Since you are primarily an assault pilot, you wouldn't have seen much increase in your personal time to die. Light and medium mech pilots life expedience however did increase with the removal of the dual gauss / dual ppc combo.

[Gas Guzzler]

Dracol, on 11 February 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

Since you are primarily an assault pilot, you wouldn't have seen much increase in your personal time to die. Light and medium mech pilots life expedience however did increase with the removal of the dual gauss / dual ppc combo.

Honestly I sort of understand the dual gauss dual ppc combo hate... not sure if it would be unbalanced NOW, but that's fine.

I'm more interested in freeing up the "3" combo, as there are several mechs I would like to run 1 Gauss, 2 PPC on.

[UnofficialOperator]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

Think hard about it.

We're not talking about leaderboard farming. Noone cares in the grand scheme of things.

You're legitimizing "damage profiles" for people who can't aim, and then giving more people whining excuses to "why is he taking so much less damage" when the actual problem is aim and/or lag. It's already an existing problem that multiple tiers are getting mixed by the MM due to poor population, but now you're making it harder to determine fact from fiction.

That and if you had a Tier 4 profile that can be used for comp play (you'd pay MC to change names, so it's not complicated to do if you have $$$ to spend), you'd already affect the outcomes (assuming PGI isn't lazy enough to put an option disable your damage-Tier adjustment).

People have to eventually play and deal with the consequences of getting good or not getting good.

Dude, that is why a redo of PSR/Tier/MM is needed and what I already stated. And everyone gets to be happy playing at the tier that they are most suited for. Those that can achieve better scores in this "minigame" will move up to the tougher tiers.

What Tier 4 comp play are you talking about???? You've lost me here.

[Khobai]

Quote

I'm more interested in freeing up the "3" combo, as there are several mechs I would like to run 1 Gauss, 2 PPC on.

im fine with the x3 combo on the IS side. because of how much tonnage it takes up and how bad ISDHS are.

the problem is the x3 combo on the clan side. it does 45 damage and takes up considerably less tonnage than IS.

[Leone]

Dogstar, on 11 February 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

There's an easy fix to all this gauss+ppc vs laservomit that people just won't consider.

Limit damage output to 30 per second

Don't allow weapon groups to be created that come to more than 30 damage, don't allow any more weapons to be fired for a whole second once 30 points has been fired.

Right, so see, what 'The Great Balance Pass' is trying to do is add diversity to the game, to maintain interest. What you're suggesting is to remove any real semblance of choice from build styles and limit everything to energy, ballistic or missile versions of the same mech. It's why energy draw never took off. You're suggesting everyone run around with one button builds firing 30 damage every second like crazy folk.

I love this game because it's not just some thoughtless FPS. I don't actually play FPS games much. I love this game for its tactics and mech building and utilizing such varied builds in game to thier respective talents. It's almost like it's a thinking man's shooter.

Dogstar, on 11 February 2018 - 12:19 PM, said:

Completely unacceptable to this community...

Diversity is the spice of life. I might like me some plain brawlin' taters, but I hear other folk like them spices, so I try an help make this a community where they can spice up their mechs to their own tastes.

~Leone.