251 replies to this topic

[Sjorpha]

If you look at it from a quickplay/comp perspective there isn't much of a problem with allowing 3, because then the comparison is clan gaussvomit and it seems pretty balanced and safe overall.

But if you look at faction balance and Faction Play there IS a problem. The problem is that only clan side has good build options for 2gauss/1ppc poptarts, and they have the best build options for 1gauss/2ppc poptarts. So you are giving a whole strategic option and playstyle to the already significantly stronger faction, with the other faction neither having good equivalents or very strong counterplays.

For someone who plays mostly Faction Play and is concerned about the already miniscule population there, that seems way too risky.

So my conclusion here is no, and I'm actually very sad to come to that conclusion because gauss/ppc was pretty much my favorite playstyle before the GH linking and I'd love to see a way to bring it back, but there absolutely have to be equally strong versions of it on both sides for me to be in favor, and right now there just isn't and I don't really see a way to make it happen either.

[Deathlike]

Sjorpha, on 11 February 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

If you look at it from a quickplay/comp perspective there isn't much of a problem with allowing 3, because then the comparison is clan gaussvomit and it seems pretty balanced and safe overall.

But if you look at faction balance and Faction Play there IS a problem. The problem is that only clan side has good build options for 2gauss/1ppc poptarts, and they have the best build options for 1gauss/2ppc poptarts. So you are giving a whole strategic option and playstyle to the already significantly stronger faction, with the other faction neither having good equivalents or very strong counterplays.

For someone who plays mostly Faction Play and is concerned about the already miniscule population there, that seems way too risky.

So my conclusion here is no, and I'm actually very sad to come to that conclusion because gauss/ppc was pretty much my favorite playstyle before the GH linking and I'd love to see a way to bring it back, but there absolutely have to be equally strong versions of it on both sides for me to be in favor, and right now there just isn't and I don't really see a way to make it happen either.

The IS problem has more to do with PGI's poor balance for IS PPCs for the longest of time. This is why noone talks about the IS ER PPC... it sucks at everything compared to everything else that competes in its position (range, heat, tonnage, crits, etc - everything that the Clan ERPPC is better in for the most part).

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2018 - 01:32 PM.

[Drunk Canuck]

If we can't have PPC Gauss again, I want 15 damage Clan ER PPC's with slightly less velocity and slightly longer cool down, otherwise lower the heat and up the velocity because it's mainly a damage farming weapon that is too hot to carry more than two of and be able to fire consistently. For the damage, Clan ER PPC's on their own are still very underwhelming compared to other weapons in the game and laser vomit for both Clan and IS are significantly stronger for the DPS and heat generation they create.

[Khobai]

Mech The Dane, on 11 February 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

The players for a return of Gauss/PPC would first point out that many of the historic issues surrounding their previous strength have been mitigated. For instance Mechs running those builds have had their agility heavily nerfed, which means they are difficult to position, and if closed upon, they have very little chance of escape. They think it's an important play style with significant and workable trade offs between risk and reward.

I would rather have their agility unnerfed than have Gauss/PPC return

Essentially we can have agility back or we can have Gauss/PPC back. But not both.

So voting against Gauss/PPC is voting for restoring agility.

[Spheroid]

@SJorpha: I don't know why you say the I.S. has no poptart platforms. With the greater drop deck weight Highlanders could come back into vogue especially if they are overquirked as in the days of old.

Its not like a Night Gyr handles better than a Highlander! Also potentially the Dragon Slayer could fit the bill.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Sjorpha, on 11 February 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

If you look at it from a quickplay/comp perspective there isn't much of a problem with allowing 3, because then the comparison is clan gaussvomit and it seems pretty balanced and safe overall.

But if you look at faction balance and Faction Play there IS a problem. The problem is that only clan side has good build options for 2gauss/1ppc poptarts, and they have the best build options for 1gauss/2ppc poptarts. So you are giving a whole strategic option and playstyle to the already significantly stronger faction, with the other faction neither having good equivalents or very strong counterplays.

For someone who plays mostly Faction Play and is concerned about the already miniscule population there, that seems way too risky.

So my conclusion here is no, and I'm actually very sad to come to that conclusion because gauss/ppc was pretty much my favorite playstyle before the GH linking and I'd love to see a way to bring it back, but there absolutely have to be equally strong versions of it on both sides for me to be in favor, and right now there just isn't and I don't really see a way to make it happen either.

What about this man? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed4315e7b1e6380

I think something like this could be interesting for the IS in FW.

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 11 February 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[Deathlike]

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 February 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

What about this man? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed4315e7b1e6380

I think something like this could be interesting for the IS in FW.

Gauss in side torsos and IS XL? Are you mad? You are making Night Gyrs seem great again.

[Mcgral18]

Johnathan Tanner, on 11 February 2018 - 01:47 PM, said:

What about this man? http://mwo.smurfy-ne...ed4315e7b1e6380

I think something like this could be interesting for the IS in FW.

...isXL + Gauss
Perhaps not the greatest idea

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

I'm neither pro or against the Gauss/PPC.
But last time this was a thing PGI decided to nerf the Gauss Rifle twice on it's range making it hard to compete with the clan laser vomit builds on that range.
Instead of the PGI getting on the nerf train maybe they should get the buff train for under performing weapons a go like they did with the light gauss, that was a pretty good change.
But yeah bring it back it's not all too different from the large laser+Gauss other then the exposure duration.

[Kin3ticX]

I am but a simple MechWarrior with a 2-button mouse. For me, Gauss-PPC is a mix build.

[Khobai]

Quote

The IS problem has more to do with PGI's poor balance for IS PPCs for the longest of time. This is why noone talks about the IS ER PPC... it sucks at everything compared to everything else that competes in its position (range, heat, tonnage, crits, etc - everything that the Clan ERPPC is better in for the most part).

If you compare the CERPPC and ISERPPC side by side, the CERPPC isnt really that much better. Especially when you factor in IS superquirks.

Its CDHS that are much better and enable clans to better use CERPPCs more effectively

while the weaker ISDHS make it much harder for IS to use ISERPPCs effectively

Its not a weapon balance issue. Its a core balance issue caused by CDHS being way better than ISDHS.

If you want to buff ISERPPC then turn all ISDHS into true double heatsinks. That would allow IS to cool off their ERPPCs as fast as Clans can.

This is a prime example of why core tech base balance needs to be addressed before weapon balance.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 02:17 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 02:08 PM, said:

If you compare the CERPPC and ISERPPC side by side, the CERPPC isnt really that much better. Especially when you factor in IS superquirks.

Its CDHS that are much better and enable clans to better use CERPPCs more effectively

while the weaker ISDHS make it much harder for IS to use ISERPPC effectively

Its not a weapon balance issue. Its a core balance issue caused by CDHS being way better than ISDHS.

If you want to buff ISERPPC then turn all ISDHS into true double heatsinks. That would allow IS to cool off their ERPPCs as fast as Clans can.

CDHS is one thing, but being able to put the CERPPC in the CT of the Night Gyr (D variant) should not be understated.

[Asym]

Mech The Dane, on 11 February 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

I am creating this topic to specifically discuss the Gauss/PPC debate currently raging in the Community Driven Balance Update thread.
Discuss, and vote on what you want to see in this game. Make your cases, and remember, you're not trying to put the other side down for being selfish, elitist, bad/good at this game, dumb, etc. You're trying to CONVINCE them of your side. This isn't cable news, this is a real life DEBATE. If you really want what you think should happen, to happen, then you need to get the community on your side.

OP, I need a simple question answered: to what end?

I am in favor or making excellent long range weapons effective since they have a real purpose....

What I'm not sure of is to what end? FP is dead. Solaris won't need them. Comp and individual lobbies would use them. QP is QP and that mode of play has no reason to exist since there isn't a goal: just a place to play....???

Why have PGI spend a penny on weapons vis-a-vis new maps?

Strategically, from an older player perspective, why? Being a newer player, I'm not sure anymore because there's really no reason anymore, outside of events, to even entertain FP ?

I am just curious as to why? I look forwawrd to your thoughts.

[Khobai]

Quote

CDHS is one thing, but being able to put the CERPPC in the CT of the Night Gyr (D variant) should not be understated.

Yeah but the CERPPC taking up less tonnage/crits is largely countered by the fact clans have to take a targeting computer to get comparable velocity to the ISERPPC.

The bigger problem is that IS doesnt wanna touch their ERPPCs because the heat is so high and their DHS are so crappy.

ISDHS need to better. They need to be true double heatsinks.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 02:23 PM, said:

Yeah but its largely countered by the fact clans have to take a targeting computer to get comparable velocity as the ISERPPC.

The ERPPC is still inferior as the velocity is not a dealbreaker. It would have to be significantly cooler or more efficient per shot to even be considered superior. Splash damage adds up for damage accumulation and indirect kills, which also is often unwritten aspect.

Stop trying to make IS ERPPC sound great when its use is so niche, not even the Vindicator's terribadness is going to elevate it.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2018 - 02:26 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Stop trying to make IS ERPPC sound great when its use is so niche, not even the Vindicator's terribadness is going to elevate it.

its use is niche specifically because ISDHS are weaker than CDHS.

And I never said the ISERPPC was great. I said the exact opposite. I said its not great because ISDHS suck.

The best way to get the ISERPPC back into the game is to buff ISDHS into true dubs.

And splash damage on the CERPPC remains way overrated by IS players, as usual... half the time, half the splash damage vanishes into thin air. Its not even reliable whether you get the full splash damage or not.


Im also in favor of all non-heavy PPCs (including CERPPC) having a ghost heat limit of 3 (no reason an awesome shouldnt be able to fire three PPCs at the same time)

Although I remain opposed to Gauss/PPC having a ghost heat limit of 3. 40ppfld+5splash damage long range PPFLD alphas is not something we need back in the game. Especially if it means we cant undo the agility nerfs on mechs like the Night Gyr.

Edited by Khobai, 11 February 2018 - 02:44 PM.

[X T R E M E]

ppc gauss were fine, they need to be added back same way as they were

[Deathlike]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

its use is niche specifically because ISDHS are weaker than CDHS.

That's not entirely true.

Even when we had Gauss+2CERPPC on Timberwolves, they were not filled the brim in DHS.

ISDHS needs buffing, and that's undeniable. The best PPC+Gauss combinations literally come from Clans and it's because of certain values that is not limited to DHS that makes them better. We're talking about Clan XL, Clan FF, Clan Endo, Clan Gauss, Clan ERPPC (usable for anything on a general basis, though ideally for range)... so it's not just one thing... it's a grand host of things.

Again, stop trying to skate the fundamental issues.

[FupDup]

Khobai, on 11 February 2018 - 02:29 PM, said:

its use is niche specifically because ISDHS are weaker than CDHS.

And I never the ERPPC was great. I said the exact opposite. I said its not great because ISDHS suck.

Well, let's play a thought exercise shall we?

Let's pretend that suddenly the Clams got to equip the IS ERPPC with their smaller Dubs. Would you consider it to be weaker, better, or equal to the Clam ERPPC in this condition?

[Bud Crue]

I voted yes. Yes to Gauss/PPC. Yes, to removing an arbitrary barrier to a combination of weapons that only a handful of mechs can pull off, and even fewer can pull off well. Yes, to PGI actually standing by two of their stated goals for the game: increasing player choices and improving build diversity.

For the last three years I never even noticed that gauss/PPC was some sort of stereotype high skill play style that allowed high skill players to dominate the game and harvest potatoes like me on an industrial scale. Frankly, until the Kodiak and Night Gyr entered the game I wasn't aware of it at all. Even after their arrival it was more a theoretical thing than a reality. When I did see it in game I was more in awe of folks that could pull it off successfully because it was in fact so rare (in my games) that someone did pull it off successfully; the rest of the time...it was just another build.

I for one ran it on two mediocre mechs: an 0xp and a Dragon Slayer. I don't believe for a minute that PGI's data shows that either of these mechs (in re the DS, the poptart meta was before my time) are OP running Gauss PPC.

If it comes back I will run it on exactly three mechs. That 0xp,that Dragon Slayer and maybe my Kodiak 3 because that thing twists so slow I like having something in the arms to shoot with. That's it. I won't run it on the Night Gyr because I prefer my Gauss ERLL build, same with my Mad-iic-D.

I just don't see what the problem is, and if there is a problem, that it is one wherein ALL mechs that might potentially run the combo must all be treated -or should I say: punished- the same way. If there are certain mechs that are truly OP terrors running the combo, then give those mechs -JUST THOSE VARIANTS THAT ARE THE PROBLEM- some negative nerfs to PPC heat or gauss cool down, or whatever to deal with those OP variants; but the current status quo of hitting all mechs that can run the combo, but are still mediocre, the same as those mechs that are OP with the combo, is stupid and in direct defiance of PGI's stated goals for the game.

Edited by Bud Crue, 11 February 2018 - 02:44 PM.