347 replies to this topic

[Angus McFife VI]

VitriolicViolet, on 12 February 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

urgh more of the 'Clans got nerfed' nonsense quickly followed by flawed comparisons of tech and mechs

As usual in my opinion the only mechs we should focus on for tech comparisons are ONI-IIC-B and ONI-K
Both of these mechs have the same hardpoints in very similiar locations, their hitboxes are very close, same tonnage, same mobility (accel/decel etc). you can also do it with some of the IS/Clan Highlanders, HGN-IIC and HGN-732

the only difference between them is quirks and tech
ONI-IIC-B 'Oni-Chan'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da98d5f2a7c02a6
1x LB20, 4x CMPL, 2x CSRM6, 350 XL, 14 DHS. 1.23 Heat efficiency

ONI-K 'Sand Crawler'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...52e6f35526e3f66
1x AC20, 4x MPL, 2x SRM6, AMS, 300 LFE, 19 DHS. 1.3 Heat efficiency

So its pretty easy to see just how much advantage Clan mechs get. they are running what is effectively the same build (there is only 1.5 ton difference in engine weight and 18 KPH)
The IS mech gets double the armor quirks of the Clan (23+ CT vs 12+ CT) as well as the IS mech recieving some weapon quirks. The IS mech gets 1.23 for heat efficiency vs 1.3.

Maybe you should try fitting 4 SRM6+A with 1 LBX20 on that Orion IIC instead and become the objectively superior 75 tonner, you know moving at 83 KPH, more or less.

Edited by Dont LRM me please, 12 February 2018 - 07:06 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

i think you two missed the point for one. it was to compare two mechs which are as close as Clan and IS can get to remove as many variables as possible from a Clan/IS tech debate, not 'are these builds good'.

The ONI-K build cant be replicated on a Clan onion and the IIC build cant be replicated on a IS Onion hence why i chose those builds.

As for a build i do use ive been loving the Skoll
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...57a5a2537ec2613

Hits 107kph with MASC. Eclectic mix of lasers is a little random but works well.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

VitriolicViolet, on 12 February 2018 - 08:17 PM, said:

i think you two missed the point for one. it was to compare two mechs which are as close as Clan and IS can get to remove as many variables as possible from a Clan/IS tech debate, not 'are these builds good'.

The ONI-K build cant be replicated on a Clan onion and the IIC build cant be replicated on a IS Onion hence why i chose those builds.

As for a build i do use ive been loving the Skoll
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...57a5a2537ec2613

Hits 107kph with MASC. Eclectic mix of lasers is a little random but works well.

Still questioning that build too, but that's beside the point.

What worth is a balance discussion if you aren't actually comparing top builds? If the IS mech can become better than the Clan mech's build or the Clan mech becomes better than the IS mech's build, then its a build issue, not a balance issue. The IS MPL doesn't even fulfill the same role as the clan MPL, its shorter duration and shorter range while the clan MPL is more of a mid range gun. Much like how functionally the IS LFE and Clan XL are identical, even though the IS XL and Clan XL share the same name. So the goal here isn't to use the exact same guns on each mech, the goal here is to have the same role.

It becomes a balance issue when we compare top builds in the same role and one mech has way more advantages over the other than they have disadvantages.

[Y E O N N E]

LFE and cXL are not functionally identical, do not even go there.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 February 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

LFE and cXL are not functionally identical, do not even go there.

They literally do the exact same thing and take up the exact same slots, the only difference is weight, thus factually they are functionally identical.

[FupDup]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

They literally do the exact same thing and take up the exact same slots, the only difference is weight, thus factually they are functionally identical.

The weight required for an item is a pretty important aspect of its function.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

VitriolicViolet, on 12 February 2018 - 06:46 PM, said:

urgh more of the 'Clans got nerfed' nonsense quickly followed by flawed comparisons of tech and mechs

As usual in my opinion the only mechs we should focus on for tech comparisons are ONI-IIC-B and ONI-K
Both of these mechs have the same hardpoints in very similiar locations, their hitboxes are very close, same tonnage, same mobility (accel/decel etc). you can also do it with some of the IS/Clan Highlanders, HGN-IIC and HGN-732

the only difference between them is quirks and tech
ONI-IIC-B 'Oni-Chan'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...da98d5f2a7c02a6
1x LB20, 4x CMPL, 2x CSRM6, 350 XL, 14 DHS. 1.23 Heat efficiency

ONI-K 'Sand Crawler'
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...52e6f35526e3f66
1x AC20, 4x MPL, 2x SRM6, AMS, 300 LFE, 19 DHS. 1.3 Heat efficiency

So its pretty easy to see just how much advantage Clan mechs get. they are running what is effectively the same build (there is only 1.5 ton difference in engine weight and 18 KPH)
The IS mech gets double the armor quirks of the Clan (23+ CT vs 12+ CT) as well as the IS mech recieving some weapon quirks. The IS mech gets 1.23 for heat efficiency vs 1.3.

Also I was thinking here, comparing those two builds you have there.

-IS gets more total DPS that is further boosted by quirks
-IS has double armor quirks
-IS has way less spread in the build due to AC20>LBX20, lower spread SRMs, and 2/3th duration MPLs
-DPS and armor gap is further widened by skill tree due to better cooldown and heatgen nodes for IS along with higher base armor
-IS one also has an AMS thrown in instead of a double more heatsinks

-Clan gets 2.2 more damage per alpha (which gets practically negated when the AMS shoots down a single SRM)
-Clan gets 10.8 KPH more run speed
-Clan takes 2 seconds longer to overheat
-Clan gets longer range MPLs

Seems pretty balanced to me, would say the IS one would win in a 1v1 brawl.

FupDup, on 12 February 2018 - 09:34 PM, said:

The weight required for an item is a pretty important aspect of its function.

Weight's not a function at all though, its a property, lets not mix up terms.

[El Bandito]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 09:37 PM, said:

Also I was thinking here, comparing those two builds you have there.

-IS gets more total DPS that is further boosted by quirks
-IS has double armor quirks
-IS has way less spread in the build due to AC20>LBX20, lower spread SRMs, and 2/3th duration MPLs
-DPS and armor gap is further widened by skill tree due to better cooldown and heatgen nodes for IS along with higher base armor
-IS one also has an AMS thrown in instead of a double more heatsinks

-Clan gets 2.2 more damage per alpha (which gets practically negated when the AMS shoots down a single SRM)
-Clan gets 10.8 KPH more run speed
-Clan takes 2 seconds longer to overheat
-Clan gets longer range MPLs

Seems pretty balanced to me, would say the IS one would win in a 1v1 brawl.

LBX20 + 4xSRM6 + Flamer Orion-IIC-A will demolish both those builds. It runs faster than any similar IS builds too. Orion-IIC-A is better brawler than IS Orions, that much is certain.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 February 2018 - 09:40 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 12 February 2018 - 09:39 PM, said:

LBX20+4xSRM6 Orion-IIC will demolish both those builds. It runs faster than any similar IS builds too.

Exactly what I was talking about in my post above about comparing relevant builds rather than these two "identical" builds.

[Mcgral18]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 February 2018 - 09:20 PM, said:

LFE and cXL are not functionally identical, do not even go there.

I know it's a point of semantics...but they are technically mechanically identical
Same penalties, same size


Only, heavier, so outright worse in function, as you say.

[Y E O N N E]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 09:27 PM, said:

They literally do the exact same thing and take up the exact same slots, the only difference is weight, the most important distinction of all and the entire reason this class of engine exists. Thus, factually, they are not at all functionally identical.

ftfy

Mcgral18, on 12 February 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

I know it's a point of semantics...but they are technically mechanically identical
Same penalties, same size


Only, heavier, so outright worse in function, as you say.

Being heavier is a mechanical function, dude.

For a given run speed, one enables more carrying capacity than the other. They cannot, at all, be "functionally identical." Period.

There is no way you can split that up to say otherwise.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 12 February 2018 - 10:40 PM, said:

ftfy



Being heavier is a mechanical function, dude.

For a given run speed, one enables more carrying capacity than the other. They cannot, at all, be "functionally identical." Period.

There is no way you can split that up to say otherwise.

Weight's a physical property, both items do the exact same thing, one weighs more than the other, thus they are functionally idtentical, as their function is, you guessed it, identical.

Either way, I mean functionally identical in that in a match they'll both survive until both side torsos are blown off and have the exact same penalties. Its semantics anyway, I've clarified this enough.

[Y E O N N E]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

Weight's a physical property, both items do the exact same thing, one weighs more than the other, thus they are functionally idtentical, as their function is, you guessed it, identical.

Wrong.

Weight is a mechanical property because it's used to moderate what you can and cannot do on a 'Mech.

You can say they are functionally identical in how they work, but not in magnitude. At the same time, you cannot discount the magnitude unless you are trying to be deceitful. Which you are and I will not let that slide.

Quote

Either way, I mean functionally identical in that in a match they'll both survive until both side torsos are blown off and have the exact same penalties. Its semantics anyway, I've clarified this enough.

It's not really semantics because they don't actually enable the same thing. You survive, neat. You still have to run 10 kph slower for only 75% of the firepower and 67% of the cooling potential.

[Lykaon]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

Weight's not a function at all though, its a property, lets not mix up terms.

What is the entire purpose of XL and LFE engines? I mean why do they exist instead of using standard engines? Like you know the ENTIRE reason for them existing AT ALL.





It's the weight savings and the clan XL is twice as good in that department vs the LFE.


So we can argue semantics or drop the pretences and excuses and admit that the LFE is a half as good clan XL.

[Luminis]

If we assume LFE = cXL in terms of functionality, it just highlights the issue. On a 300 rated engine (which I use frequently on Heavies, for example), you're paying a 5 ton "IS tax" for functional parity.

Gotta get alot of nurfin' done to compensate for that sorta stuff.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Lykaon, on 12 February 2018 - 11:57 PM, said:

What is the entire purpose of XL and LFE engines? I mean why do they exist instead of using standard engines? Like you know the ENTIRE reason for them existing AT ALL.

It's the weight savings and the clan XL is twice as good in that department vs the LFE.

So we can argue semantics or drop the pretences and excuses and admit that the LFE is a half as good clan XL.

CXL is half the weight of a standard engine. LFE is only 50% heavier than CXL, thus its 2/3s as good. Though IS doesn't really have any issue getting builds that are competitive with clans even with this handicap.

Yeonne Greene, on 12 February 2018 - 11:05 PM, said:

Wrong.

Weight is a mechanical property because it's used to moderate what you can and cannot do on a 'Mech.

You can say they are functionally identical in how they work, but not in magnitude. At the same time, you cannot discount the magnitude unless you are trying to be deceitful. Which you are and I will not let that slide.

>I'm being deceitful while blatantly saying that the mechanics of the engines are both the same while repeatedly stating the LFE is heavier
K, have fun with that.

Yeonne Greene, on 12 February 2018 - 11:05 PM, said:

It's not really semantics because they don't actually enable the same thing. You survive, neat. You still have to run 10 kph slower for only 75% of the firepower and 67% of the cooling potential.

Now why does the IS mech here have 75% of the firepower and 67% of the cooling potential all while still running slower? I can pull out quite a few builds where the IS mech has the firepower and cooling advantages at the cost of running just a bit slower, even with the dreaded LFE disadvantage you guys are playing up.

I remember back in the day when I went on and on about how IS, even back when there were no LFE engines, were statistically superior to Clan ones even with an STD engine due to those insane quirks. Here, lemme just revive this long dead menace where I went through all the Clans OP arguments in one 17 page superthread.

https://mwomercs.com...50140-clans-op/

Its been nearly a year, clan nerfs have continued, IS is stronger due to LFE coming out among other things.

Maybe you're being a bit deceitful there, saying the IS mech is just going to be flat out weaker than the clan one due to weight savings in Clan XL and various pieces of clan equipment being lighter. This entirely ignores all the free tonnage IS gets in quirks, 10% cooldown quirk pretty much equates to 10% more weapon per ton, bonus armor and structure often will add up to multiple tons of free durability, 10% heat means you need 10% less heatsink weight.

Pick the right builds and mechs and play them to their advantages and the whole "CLANS OP" spiel this forum spews seems made up, or at the very least MASSIVELY exaggerated. Other guy I quoted in this post is a good example of stretching the truth.


So, are you still running that Rifleman you talked about in the thread I linked? I'm still running my Dragons, was a bit early to the meta. The UAC2 boating one even managed to be in the 1st place World Tournament team's roster.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 13 February 2018 - 12:37 AM.

[Zergling]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 February 2018 - 09:38 PM, said:

-DPS and armor gap is further widened by skill tree due to better cooldown and heatgen nodes for IS along with higher base armor

The Clan Orion IIC build has a huge heat and sustained DPS advantage.

Comparing the same Orion -K build without AMS in exchange for another heatsink versus a slower Orion IIC with 2 more heatsinks.

Orion K gets 19.70 maximum DPS, 30.88% heat efficiency, 6.08 sustained DPS and takes 11.09 seconds to cool off from a single alpha.
Orion IIC gets 19.24 maximum DPS, 40.16% heat efficiency, 7.73 sustained DPS and takes 9.04 seconds to cool off from a single alpha.

That is a 27% advantage in sustained DPS output for the Clan mech.


EDIT:
If both mechs have maximum cooldown and heat generation skill nodes, it changes to this:

Orion K gets 22.36 maximum DPS, 30.89% heat efficiency, 6.91 sustained DPS and takes 9.80 seconds to cool off from a single alpha.
Orion IIC gets 21.11 maximum DPS, 40.09% heat efficiency, 8.46 sustained DPS and takes 8.28 seconds to cool off from a single alpha.

That reduces the Clan mech's sustained DPS advantage to 22.52%.


EDIT 2:
As for the IS mech's durability advantage, it gets 573 total armor points vs 518 for the Clan, 115 center torso armor vs 104, and 80 side torso armor vs 72.
That is a 10.62% total armor points advantage, 10.58% advantage for the center torso, and 11.11% advantage for the side torsos.

Counting structure too, total hit points for the IS mech is 810 versus 755 for the Clan, center torso is 161 vs 150 and side torsos are 112 vs 104.
That is a 7.28% advantage in total hit points for the IS mech, 7.33% for center torso and 7.69% for side torso.


So the Orion IIC's sustained DPS advantage is significantly greater than the Orion K's durability advantage; in a sustained damage vs durability contest like a brawl, the Orion IIC has the advantage.

Edited by Zergling, 13 February 2018 - 02:47 AM.

[Luminis]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 13 February 2018 - 12:34 AM, said:

I can pull out quite a few builds where the IS mech has the firepower and cooling advantages at the cost of running just a bit slower, even with the dreaded LFE disadvantage you guys are playing up.

Please do. I'd genuinely like to copy them.

I'd love to have an IS Heavy that only sacrifices a few kph to beat, say, a HBR in firepower and heat efficiency - ideally not just one with MRM80 or some nonesense, though, as that means paying for the firepower with massive spread and gimped range.

[Dashen]

Clan mechs are really bad, that's why they are conquering most planets. I used to play smoke jaguar and now i punched that steiner loyalist, i'm no meta tryhard and i like to have fun, but even i can see clan power, it is beyond illogical to assume IS mechs are better.

[Kinski Orlawisch]

16 days left....