347 replies to this topic

[Lovas]

Bandito and Ash is right man...it is so funny when I take my clan 65 tonners and wipe out IS 85ton+ mechs and then come here and see people say clans not OP. Buahahahahahaha

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

It can't really use it, though, because it's only got 18-19 DHS where the SMN has 24; the 1 extra heat per shot generated by the SMN doesn't really compensate for that. We'll see in the upcoming MRBC season if the SMN still rules or if the GHR can upset it.

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1a862b5715505ee
54% cooling eff after the 10% heat gen quirk is unusable?

12.15 heat per shot vs 14.5, about 84% heat per shot. 3 HPS vs 2.9 HPS, and you have a second shorter cooldown on the Grasshopper. I'm feeling it has some real good chances over the Summoner, especially with the arguably better hitboxes, especially for long range combat with it being so thin.

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

It also lessens the impact of a whiff on the targeted component. If you miss CT once, you still do 5 damage to it. If the Hopper misses CT once, it does zero. It matters, especially as the match drags on.

True, though I'm betting on the higher velocity of the Grasshopper's shells and the higher refire rate being a bit better at making up for missing CT than the 5 damage to it on miss.

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 06:31 PM, said:

Locust no; the MGs burn through its meager armor really quickly. Commando possibly; I've gotten into some 1v1s with my MLX vs. YokiLin's Commando and they could have gone either way had he not dropped double advanced arty on my head almost every time. But the caveat is that you need non-flat terrain. You could also fudge the result by putting flamers on the MG MLX to heat-cap any attacker.

Wolfhound, though, absolutely.

Really, I think the issue is that the things you have to do to IS 'Mechs to make them worthwhile in situations where tonnage doesn't matter ends up making some of them overly good in situations where it does. But that's what the tonnage slider is for.

Mist Lynx is slower than the Commando, Locust, or Wolfhound though, so it can't really dominate with flamers, since you could just run out of range, infact you could just run out of MG range, especially Wolfhound with 6 MPLs, Commando could also get by doing it with its SRMs.

I definitely agree with that last bit though. I find that in general IS and Clans are pretty on par with eachother ton for ton, quirks actually add up to more than people give them credit for, and with nerfs to Clan equipment there's various spots favoring each side, but when IS has a tonnage advantage thrown into this ontop of their already tanky nature things become out of wack, because then we're no longer comparing Mist Lynxes to Commandos, its Mist Lynxes to Wolfhounds, Hellbringers to Black Knights, could even argue Summoner to Victor for poptart in FP.

Samial, on 11 February 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Op is nuts.. Clans are are super ******* overpowered as they ever were, those nerfs did jack and **** to balance the game, IS get **** on every match..

OP get out of your overpower timber wolves and mad cat IIs occasionally and you'd notice, ******* laughable these people..

Can't take it seriously when you're saying Timber Wolf is overpowered these days.

[Zergling]

Timby is definitely on the weak side these days.

It was a top tier meta mech for a long time, but those days are long past.

Edited by Zergling, 11 February 2018 - 07:15 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I really love it when IS players accuse people who say that clans aren't OP of never using IS mechs. Yet OP is a merc, I'm a merc, and most everyone saying clans aren't OP actually have a large stable of mechs of both factions.

Honestly most of the people I see saying Clans OP are just IS loyalists who have never even used Clan tech and just say its OP because they lost to it and refuse to learn how it works to counter it.

[Y E O N N E]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 07:09 PM, said:

http://mwo.smurfy-ne...1a862b5715505ee
54% cooling eff after the 10% heat gen quirk is unusable?

12.15 heat per shot vs 14.5, about 84% heat per shot. 3 HPS vs 2.9 HPS, and you have a second shorter cooldown on the Grasshopper. I'm feeling it has some real good chances over the Summoner, especially with the arguably better hitboxes, especially for long range combat with it being so thin.

That's a bad build, you are placing the ERPPC into low mounts. That alone disqualifies it because the mounts are the most important thing about the Summoner or we'd have been poptarting with just two ERPPC on the TBR aeons ago. To get the ERPPC where they need to be, you have to jettison a DHS and use a pair of small lasers. That lowers the efficiency to 52.6%.

Still, that's missing the point. To use the advantage of the faster cooldown, you are firing full tilt. You can only do this for three shots, otherwise you are off of cool-down and you are spitting out less damage than the cERPPC.

And the other things the Summoner has is one more JJ and way better mobility:

Turn Rate: 70 vs. 55
Accel: 40.79 vs. 29.26
Decel:31.78 vs. 26.42
Torso Turn Rate: 121 deg/s vs. 99

The only place the GHR wins is in torso yaw range, at 120 vs. 99. The overall agility advantage on the SMN, which handles better than a 55 ton Medium, is another key to its superiority.

Quote

True, though I'm betting on the higher velocity of the Grasshopper's shells and the higher refire rate being a bit better at making up for missing CT than the 5 damage to it on miss.

Not really. It helps a lesser player, but not a good player. And the slower the target, the less it matters even there.

Quote

Mist Lynx is slower than the Commando, Locust, or Wolfhound though, so it can't really dominate with flamers, since you could just run out of range, infact you could just run out of MG range, especially Wolfhound with 6 MPLs, Commando could also get by doing it with its SRMs.

To attack, you have to face your target, which cuts your speed advantage down to nil either because you stopped or you had to run normal to the MLX. For the Commando and Locust, if they want to full engage on the MLX, which is what a 1v1 is, the speed doesn't factor in at all. Now if you are poking the MLX to death over the course of a match, that's something else entirely.

Quote

I definitely agree with that last bit though. I find that in general IS and Clans are pretty on par with eachother ton for ton, quirks actually add up to more than people give them credit for, and with nerfs to Clan equipment there's various spots favoring each side, but when IS has a tonnage advantage thrown into this ontop of their already tanky nature things become out of wack, because then we're no longer comparing Mist Lynxes to Commandos, its Mist Lynxes to Wolfhounds, Hellbringers to Black Knights, could even argue Summoner to Victor for poptart in FP.

I don't agree that IS and Clan are on par ton for ton, first because not all IS 'Mechs are so tanky (actually very few are) and second because IS firepower once you pass 40 tons is mostly a farce. A mid-range laser vomit Banshee 3M is completely invalidated by a Hunchback IIC-A. Hell, even a Clan Assault gets invalidated by such, which is why most of the ones you saw in MWOWC were playing extreme range; it's basically the only range where their armor counted for something. Even there, the only reason the BLR-1G is a thing is because there is no Clan Assault with similar mounts, otherwise we'd all take that instead because it would run faster, be colder, and still have slightly better range. And the Battlemaster is one of those "not tanky" IS 'Mechs.

It's just a few specific 'Mechs making that built-in tonnage advantage the IS have in FP count for way more than it was supposed to.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 11 February 2018 - 07:31 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 03:07 PM, said:

And a Summoner with dual CERPPC vs a Grasshopper with dual ERPPC, the Grasshopper now wins with the CERPPC nerf in place

Lol... uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

[Seranov]

Samial, on 11 February 2018 - 06:59 PM, said:

Op is nuts.. Clans are are super ******* overpowered as they ever were, those nerfs did jack and **** to balance the game, IS get **** on every match..


OP get out of your overpower timber wolves and mad cat IIs occasionally and you'd notice, ******* laughable these people..


Good luck with using them ******* beyond useless pixels and code...

>he thinks the Timberwolf is OP
Haha, oh wow.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Gas Guzzler, on 11 February 2018 - 07:40 PM, said:

Lol... uhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Well, I gave my reasons. I prefer having superior pinpoint DPS, damage per heat, velocity, and durability over the other benefits a Summoner offers. People were saying when the Hunchback IIC-A got its mobility nerf that it wouldn't even matter for the poptarting build, so why would I put much weight in the Summoner's higher mobility compared to a Grasshopper for a poptarting role? Poptarts often have short windows where they need some burst damage then they can run off to cool for a bit, as targets have moved into cover, fitting well for the IS ERPPCs.

Summoner gets higher raw damage, higher mobility, and higher cooling, the general trend with clan mechs.

[Deathlike]

Protip: When mentioning Grasshopper with high mounts, you must actually prop the mounts with small lasers or something as was true when the 4 or 5 IS ERLL build was a thing.

The first slot is the waist-high useless/near useless slot (it's on the same level as the CT lasers) on the Grasshopper. It's only good for "brawling lasers".

Dual CERPPC Summoner is far superior to the Grasshopper.. there's no doubt to that.

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2018 - 08:06 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, I gave my reasons. I prefer having superior pinpoint DPS, damage per heat, velocity, and durability over the other benefits a Summoner offers. People were saying when the Hunchback IIC-A got its mobility nerf that it wouldn't even matter for the poptarting build, so why would I put much weight in the Summoner's higher mobility compared to a Grasshopper for a poptarting role? Poptarts often have short windows where they need some burst damage then they can run off to cool for a bit, as targets have moved into cover, fitting well for the IS ERPPCs.

Summoner gets higher raw damage, higher mobility, and higher cooling, the general trend with clan mechs.

Standby, I'm taking the Summoner out for a spin, its been a while.

I just know for a fact that dual ER PPC IS mechs have always felt anemic. Too hot, and don't get the free AC5s going down range.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 11 February 2018 - 08:05 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

Protip: When mentioning Grasshopper with high mounts, you must actually prop the mounts with small lasers or something as was true when the 4 or 5 IS ERLL build was a thing.

The first slot is the waist-high useless slot (it's on the same level as the CT lasers) on the Grasshopper.

RIP single heatsink, hello MK2 TC.

Gas Guzzler, on 11 February 2018 - 08:05 PM, said:

Standby, I'm taking the Summoner out for a spin, its been a while.

I just know for a fact that dual ER PPC IS mechs have always felt anemic. Too hot, and don't get the free AC5s going down range.

I found the Summoners considerably weaker than they once were with those 25% longer cooldowns. Thinking about taking out some heatsinks, but not really sure what I'd replace them with that wouldn't make the build worse other than a bigger TC.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 11 February 2018 - 08:08 PM.

[Deathlike]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 08:07 PM, said:

RIP single heatsink, hello MK2 TC.

Um, what? ERPPCs need all the DHS they can handle. Targeting Computers for IS is a super-luxury akin to using IS FF. Clans always have that option.

Dealing the Grasshopper's 20 PPFLD really doesn't compare to the 20+10 splash PPFLD with super mobility that the Summoner provides. Grasshoppers with PPC wasn't ever a thing (if it were even a thing, that build would've appeared period in comp play but it didn't unlike Summoners).

Edited by Deathlike, 11 February 2018 - 08:16 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Um, what? ERPPCs need all the DHS they can handle. Targeting Computers for IS is a super-luxury akin to using IS FF. Clans always have that option.

You just said you'd have to remove a heatsink to put 2 SLs in to bump up the ERPPCs, this leaves an extra slot, and since the empty arm had weight you can easily get a TC2 to fill the emptiness.

[Deathlike]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 08:20 PM, said:

You just said you'd have to remove a heatsink to put 2 SLs in to bump up the ERPPCs, this leaves an extra slot, and since the empty arm had weight you can easily get a TC2 to fill the emptiness.

I'm pretty sure cooling is way more important.

This is my ultra-scrub (not super optimized) design at the moment:
GHR-5P

Scrub design with Targeting Comp (do we really need this inferior poo?):
GHR-5P

Summoner superiority:
SMN-M

Poor clams.

[Y E O N N E]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 07:59 PM, said:

People were saying when the Hunchback IIC-A got its mobility nerf that it wouldn't even matter for the poptarting build, so why would I put much weight in the Summoner's higher mobility compared to a Grasshopper for a poptarting role?

Because "people" were wrong?

How many HBK-IIC-A poptarts do you see these days? They were almost a plague before, now they are a novelty.

Also, higher mobility is not the trend for Clan 'Mechs. Higher speed, yes, but usually the IS 'Mechs have greater agility.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Deathlike, on 11 February 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

I'm pretty sure cooling is way more important.

This is my ultra-scrub (not super optimized) design at the moment:
GHR-5P

Scrub design with Targeting Comp (do we really need this inferior poo?):
GHR-5P

Summoner superiority:
SMN-M

Poor clams.

So between your builds there. Both of them get off 4 shots before having to stop to cool off. Grasshopper only takes 12 seconds to do it while Summoner takes 15. Grasshopper then only takes 15.8 seconds to cool off while Summoner takes a little over 18 to cool off.

Sooo... poor clams?

Yeonne Greene, on 11 February 2018 - 08:42 PM, said:

Because "people" were wrong?

How many HBK-IIC-A poptarts do you see these days? They were almost a plague before, now they are a novelty.

Also, higher mobility is not the trend for Clan 'Mechs. Higher speed, yes, but usually the IS 'Mechs have greater agility.

I don't see many hunchback poptarts these days, on the other hand I also don't see many Summoner poptarts.

[Y E O N N E]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

I don't see many hunchback poptarts these days, on the other hand I also don't see many Summoner poptarts.

I see at least one almost every match. You'll have to open your eyes a bit more.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 11 February 2018 - 08:53 PM.

[nehebkau]

Dajegas, on 11 February 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

Your point is wrong.
Have a look at who the OP is, then get off your high horse and move on.

Just because I made a valid point doesn't mean you have to go all equestrian on me. If you are going to complain about the best of IS then you must do so from the point of using the best that the clans have to offer.... or are you just gonna fake news it?

[CainenEX]

are we even playing the same game? Lol what a troll post. You outta make sure to 10v1 them next time

[Deathlike]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 11 February 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

So between your builds there. Both of them get off 4 shots before having to stop to cool off. Grasshopper only takes 12 seconds to do it while Summoner takes 15. Grasshopper then only takes 15.8 seconds to cool off while Summoner takes a little over 18 to cool off.

Sooo... poor clams?

Where in heck are you doing your math? They both literally have more or less the same cooling power (before factoring in the skill tree, which isn't even much of a difference).

Grasshopper has less JJ lift, agility, and speed compared to the Summoner.

I'm not seeing what you're seeing, and yet noone seriously uses the Grasshopper for PPC pewpew.