426 replies to this topic

[Stinger554]

Brain Cancer, on 15 February 2018 - 12:46 PM, said:

"Buff LRMs. You don't want Stinger554 to cry about another new Mechpack full of LRM builds."

There, that oughta get Paul motivated.

Lol <3

Burke IV, on 15 February 2018 - 12:48 PM, said:

They killed the medium LRM boat. Streaming CLRM5s is like having a peashooter now. Is it playable... i guess if you want to try really hard every game and hope there isnt too much ams about. Even then you are eventually limited by the amount of ammo you can carry.

The streaming is a problem for all clan LRMs. If you are using LRM5 launchers especially Clan ones you need to group fire them and not chain-fire them when AMS is present. I had a MDD that had six CLRM5s it had the same problem didn't kill the build...

Also out of curiosity which clan Medium would you use to take LRM5s in? The only one that comes to mind is the Hero Huntsman; there's not enough hardpoints otherwise to effectively run LRM5s.

For IS mediums are still decent LRM boats.

p.s The reason that MDD build is a had is because LRMs are bad.

[Burke IV]

Huntsman. Bad or not, before the skill tree it worked just fine and after it didnt. Are you happy with how your MDD puts out damage after the skill tree? Do you think your ammo lasts as long?

You can put that set up on your MDD if you like it , maybe get a bit more damage out

[Stinger554]

Burke IV, on 15 February 2018 - 02:21 PM, said:

Huntsman. Bad or not, before the skill tree it worked just fine and after it didnt. Are you happy with how your MDD puts out damage after the skill tree? Do you think your ammo lasts as long?

You can put that set up on your MDD if you like it , maybe get a bit more damage out

MDD that's what my MDD was or something very close to it. I don't quite remember the exact loadout anymore.

I wasn't really happy with it before skill tree always felt lacking to play; but with other LRM boating I've recently played around with it usually feels decent though I will say that most of my LRMs have been swapped out for ATMs since I usually fire inside that 500M range anyways and ATMs are better in that range band in most circumstances. I also almost exclusively run Artemis so that may be a factor as well.

As for ammo; did ammo per ton change when skill tree dropped? I don't think it did so technically with a properly skill mech you should have more ammo than before skill tree.

Overall LRMs do need a buff. I just feel that they won't get it since lower tier'd and new players don't understand how to outplay LRMs currently any significant buffs to the system would likely cause insane problems for those players. I mean there are lower tier/new players that have complained about LRMs in their current state FFS. To me a big portion of that is likely to come from the indirect fire; so by reducing the player's ability to do so could open up the path to some buffs for the weapon system to at least make it viable instead of only effective under specific conditions.

[Burke IV]

Ammo went up with the skill nodes but its not enough. If it was doubled it would be nice but i cant see that happening

Edited by Burke IV, 15 February 2018 - 03:18 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Ammo went up with the skill nodes but its not enough. If it was doubled it would be nice but i cant see that happening

But armor/structure also went up with the survivability nodes. At best thats a wash.

Ammo still needs to be increased by 33%-50% for ballistic/missile weapons

200 damage per ammo ton seems about right for ammo weapons

[Maxxi]

LRMs are a suppression weapon. A good use is to saturate and pin down the enemy, so your team can use this to their favor to close the gap and brawl or flank the enemy. If you can kill the enemy too, it's a bonus. Sometimes the player can`t define if their missiles are hitting the enemy mech (good), pin down the enemy (also good) or wasting ammo to an innocent rock (bad, very bad). But is the player's fault and not the weapon.

[Stinger554]

Khobai, on 15 February 2018 - 03:25 PM, said:

But armor/structure also went up with the survivability nodes. At best thats a wash.

Ammo still needs to be increased by 33%-50% for ballistic/missile weapons

200 damage per ammo ton seems about right for ammo weapons

I knew there was something I was forgetting...armor tree.

I don't quite agree with totally equalized damage per ammo ton on all weapons, but I agree with the sentiment. For LRMs you realize that it's only 20 more missiles to get that 200 damage per ton right as each missile does 1 damage and there are already 180 missiles in a ton?

Maxxi, on 15 February 2018 - 03:30 PM, said:

LRMs are a suppression weapon. A good use is to saturate and pin down the enemy, so your team can use this to their favor to close the gap and brawl or flank the enemy. If you can kill the enemy too, it's a bonus. Sometimes the player can`t define if their missiles are hitting the enemy mech (good), pin down the enemy (also good) or wasting ammo to an innocent rock (bad, very bad). But is the player's fault and not the weapon.

As I think someone else pointed out in this thread Direct fire non LRM weapons are often more effective in suppression than LRMs. So....

[Kroete]

Khobai, on 14 February 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

LRMs are slightly harder to learn than lasers. But once you learn them theres not a whole lot of room for improvement due to the low skill ceiling. And thats what needs to be changed with LRMs. Raising the skill ceiling on LRMs would allow them to be more powerful, without breaking the game at T4-T5.

They nerfed that too with the artemis nerf and the arc-reduction.

No fancy tricks with bending them because arc-nerf,
no need for selflocks because artemis nerf,
need to stay more back because arc-nerf to get over obstacles.

They did the oposite what most players wanted for lrms,
by reducing the skill-ceiling and the self-lock advantage.

Give them their old arc, restore artemins and then give lrms 10-20% more speed and ams to all trialmechs is a start for balancing lrms with only xml-editing. And remove the unbreakable hardcounters from incursion and escort!

To make them better with direct fire is also simple with some xml-editing, just double their spread, but also give narc/tag/artemis 2,25 times the spreadreducement. And maybe extend their range to long range ...

Everything else would need some coding ...

Edited by Kroete, 15 February 2018 - 03:44 PM.

[Burke IV]

Meanwhile abominations like the LRM80 supernova that can fill itself up with stupid amounts ammo are still viable. Who will protect the noobs from that? All of their changes made LRMs best use on assult mechs standing far away. The thing everybody moans about.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

LRMs are a suppression weapon. A good use is to saturate and pin down the enemy, so your team can use this to their favor to close the gap and brawl or flank the enemy. If you can kill the enemy too, it's a bonus. Sometimes the player can`t define if their missiles are hitting the enemy mech (good), pin down the enemy (also good) or wasting ammo to an innocent rock (bad, very bad). But is the player's fault and not the weapon.

You know what's an even better one?

One that hits the other guy at hitscan/fractional second speed and kills them if you keep it up. Instead of one that takes locking on time to get going, putters along multiple seconds to it's target, and is frequently defeated by a rock on the way in because it's actually too slow to do much a guy with a laser or autocannon or even Gauss does better.

No, it's not a "suppression weapon". Right now, it's just a bad weapon. That's the whole point. It is "balanced" for bad players to feel good about.

[HammerMaster]

Burke IV, on 15 February 2018 - 03:43 PM, said:

Meanwhile abominations like the LRM80 supernova that can fill itself up with stupid amounts ammo are still viable. Who will protect the noobs from that? All of their changes made LRMs best use on assult mechs standing far away. The thing everybody moans about.

I personally defeated 2 of these abominations with my 2ALRM15 MadDog using Cover,Movement,Hit and fade. WHICH APPLIES TO ALL WEAPONS! So its a learned thing. Teach the new guys. Don't just assume.

Edited by HammerMaster, 15 February 2018 - 04:53 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I actually think it's okay for a weapon that doesn't really require any skill beyond positioning to have no-skill counters. It's almost like one shouldn't primarily depend on the game to do all of their aiming for them.

[Y E O N N E]

Gas Guzzler, on 15 February 2018 - 07:11 PM, said:

I actually think it's okay for a weapon that doesn't really require any skill beyond positioning to have no-skill counters. It's almost like one shouldn't primarily depend on the game to do all of their aiming for them.

My thought exactly.

Have a no-skill aiming mechanic? Have a no-skill counter to go with it.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Quote

Consider that the second you come out of cover, I can greet you with a focused blast of instant laserfire that deals concentrated and rapidly lethal damage. Or...

...I can wait for lock while you casually shoot me instead and duck back into cover.

its clear a Bad position ...fall back and search a new Position ,with no Support Fire from Team and a stable Fireline with Focus Fire never stand in the same posititon to long...thats the Problem of the most players ...nothing Tactical Awarness .No scouts thats plays as Spotter to give targets ..Most Lights most strictly fast to the enemy and thinking shes frontline Assault Mechs.

[BenAran]

LRMs are not welcome in game as they are currently the weapon with the lowest skill floor AND ceiling.
There is not much to LRMs as it currently is.
An entire revamp would be needed to make something out of them that is not a binary value, where they suck so bad they are the worst weapon or you get polar and they are suddenly wrecking face because of the absence of cover.

[Burke IV]

HammerMaster, on 15 February 2018 - 04:52 PM, said:

Don't just assume.

I was responding to PGIs suggestion that top players said that tier 5s couldnt cope with LRMs.... or something. Its in the podcast. LRMs are being nerfed so they are a tier 5 weapon to protect the poor noobs from things that might upset them

BenAran, on 16 February 2018 - 01:38 AM, said:

LRMs are not welcome in game as they are currently the weapon with the lowest skill floor AND ceiling.
There is not much to LRMs as it currently is.
An entire revamp would be needed to make something out of them that is not a binary value, where they suck so bad they are the worst weapon or you get polar and they are suddenly wrecking face because of the absence of cover.

I mean no disrespect, but ... "not welcome" who says they arnt and who are they to decide that. I can walk round the entire map of polar and never expose more than a glimps of my mech to the enemy with a little care. I dont understand why everybody else cant tbh its not like its advanced thinking

Edited by Burke IV, 16 February 2018 - 06:04 AM.

[Novakaine]

No skill my rear exhaust port.
I love it when the point and click laser easy more slobs jump in☺

[Koniving]

I have no doubt that LRMs can and should be better than they are, but...

If the big guys with all their inflated stats say they are so bad...

....then why is it so easy to kill said players with big stats with a loadout that supplements its abilities with a single LRM 20?

mogs01gt, on 13 February 2018 - 12:57 PM, said:

AMS isnt taken because team play isnt valued in the current game setup. Kill or be kill is all that matters and winning is an after thought.

This guy's got the answer.
The greats are too good to use AMS (even though AMS is also effective against ATMs, SRMs, NARC, and Streaks as well).
And because of this they die pretty easy against light to moderate missile spam. (Caveat-- when caught off guard, out of cover, etc. in other words when the circumstances are right, otherwise they hide somewhere until they find another way.) Surprised LRMs haven't become a tier 1 weapon yet just because of this fallacy...

Edited by Koniving, 16 February 2018 - 06:35 AM.

[Koniving]

Metus regem, on 13 February 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

I'm on board with making bad weapons less bad or viable... the question becomes how to do it?

I've been in favor of faster flight times with better grouping for direct fire, while indirect fire retains the current flight speed and grouping... the catch is that the firing mode becomes a toggle. As it stands now, we do have toggle-able equipment in the form of AMS and ECM systems. AMS is either on or off, while an ECM system can be in jamming or counter mode, this stands to reason that LRM's could be made less bad to decent by being able to toggle the firing method.... I'd also tune the minimum range for direct mode down to about 100m, while indirect would retain the 120-180m dead zones.

This is effectively what Artemis is supposed to be doing. So where do we make the distinction between the Artemis version and the regular?

Because right now if we did that, then the only difference would be that Artemis is also imbued with a 25% lock speed increase (which also indirectly affects both ATMs and Streaks when you have it, causing all kinds of interesting unintended balancing issues).

[pattonesque]

Koniving, on 16 February 2018 - 06:31 AM, said:

I have no doubt that LRMs can and should be better than they are, but...

If the big guys with all their inflated stats say they are so bad...

....then why is it so easy to kill said players with big stats with a loadout that supplements its abilities with a single LRM 20?

this is another incredibly weird thing for you to say because good players will almost never get killed by LRMs

I'm not top tier and I can't remember the last time I was anything but inconvenienced by LRMs

and again: if your super awesome bracket build is owning top-tier players with meta builds on the regular, where's the proof? reminder that you are not allowed to photoshop this time.

Edited by pattonesque, 16 February 2018 - 07:24 AM.