426 replies to this topic

[Brain Cancer]

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ATMs need some major changes.

Noooot even going into ATMs right now, Khobai. This is about Why LRMs Aren't Balanced Properly.

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I always tried to submit things that had 2-3 different weapon types, so that the new guys could see what they liked better...

But well since they were not "meta' builds, or people couldn't see the reasoning behind them, they never got the votes from the community...

Mixed builds don't teach much, other than "Look for these, they make great target practice.".

But a good build that's a few tons less gun and a few heat sinks more cooling, for example. Or an AC carrier that doesn't quite min-max firepower so a newbie can sustain longer. That sorta thing makes for more newbiefriendly builds than pure metapower does.

[Khobai]

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Noooot even going into ATMs right now, Khobai. This is about Why LRMs Aren't Balanced Properly.

Yeah but we already went over how to balance LRMs better for T4-T5 while also making them stronger in higher tiers.

Theres not much more that can be added to that. PGI ether listens or they dont. Most likely they dont.

And I dont think the problems with ATMs are so dissimilar from the problems with LRMs that they cant be discussed in the same topic. ATMs have a higher skill floor than LRMs, but they utterly crush noobs in T4-T5. That 3 damage bracket is just way too strong.

Edited by Khobai, 16 February 2018 - 01:25 PM.

[Metus regem]

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Noooot even going into ATMs right now, Khobai. This is about Why LRMs Aren't Balanced Properly.



Mixed builds don't teach much, other than "Look for these, they make great target practice.".

But a good build that's a few tons less gun and a few heat sinks more cooling, for example. Or an AC carrier that doesn't quite min-max firepower so a newbie can sustain longer. That sorta thing makes for more newbiefriendly builds than pure metapower does.

When I say mixed weapon types, I'll try to pair them with like ranges, such as is(U)AC/10's and Large Lasers..

For example the ZEU-6T(C) that I had submitted was overlooked in favor of this ZEU-6T(C)

From my perspective, my submission was more new player friendly... but what ever, we can teach new guys the extra hard way...

[Brain Cancer]

Strangely enough (not), having everyone with AMS inT4-5 will also act to tone that down (ATMs) also.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 16 February 2018 - 01:38 PM.

[Stinger554]

Metus regem, on 16 February 2018 - 01:26 PM, said:

When I say mixed weapon types, I'll try to pair them with like ranges, such as is(U)AC/10's and Large Lasers..

For example the ZEU-6T(C) that I had submitted was overlooked in favor of this ZEU-6T(C)

From my perspective, my submission was more new player friendly... but what ever, we can teach new guys the extra hard way...

Tag with SRMs.. no just no. Shame on you. Tag literally does nothing with SRMs.

[Metus regem]

Stinger554, on 16 February 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

Tag with SRMs.. no just no. Shame on you. Tag literally does nothing with SRMs.

It's not there for you, it's there for the LRM boats on your team... also it helps you find hidden terrain hit boxes too.

[Stinger554]

Metus regem, on 16 February 2018 - 02:15 PM, said:

It's not there for you, it's there for the LRM boats on your team... also it helps you find hidden terrain hit boxes too.

Leave that to lighter mechs that can position themselves better than an 80 ton assault. Use a medium laser or another DHS instead.

Hidden terrain hit boxes while annoying aren't a justifiable use for that tag being there...it's bad plain and simple.

[Brain Cancer]

He's right. TAG is basically one ton of equipment and an E hardpoint that a newbie has to hope someone else brought missiles for.

Better to strap that on something that's actually firing the LRMs. Encourages them to get their own locks.

[Stinger554]

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

Better to strap that on something that's actually firing the LRMs. Encourages them to get their own locks.

Hah if only that'd work...

[HammerMaster]

Is this thread not moot due Paul saying no to a rework?

[Brain Cancer]

Paul also completely failed to take doing something like AMS for all Trials into account when talking about how bad LRMs were for very unskilled players, so like many things, one would hope it was just his position at the time.

[OmniFail]

So they finally admitted it.

The LRM imbalance is by design. Essentially it is a plan by the PGI man to keep the LRM man down. And why did they do it? To coddle the noobs. All the nerfs to LRMs. All the buffs to counters. All the new anti LRM features in the new game modes. All the new maps with tunnel like hard covers and giant sky scrapers in the coming map. All of this was done to make LRM ineffective. And when the community comes out with a list of proposed changes it suggests buffing the heat. All of this done in light of the constant LRMs are bad posts. All of this done while the number one faction play tip is don't bring LRMs. All of this done without one showing of a LRM boat in the championships.

And they say its because noobs will use them to kill each other if they where usable.

The noobs want use LRM 5s to kill each other. Check their usage numbers. They are extinct.
LRM 10s are as powerful as spit wads.
With very few exceptions you have to use assualts with at least four LRM 15s to have any real effect on the enemy.

It's a shame that I spent money on it.

Wheres my incentive PGI. What will I get for further investment.

More conspiracies against me from the developers. More salt for being bad from the community.

Wheres the incentive?

Shame

[HammerMaster]

OmniFail, on 16 February 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

So they finally admitted it.

The LRM imbalance is by design. Essentially it is a plan by the PGI man to keep the LRM man down. And why did they do it? To coddle the noobs. All the nerfs to LRMs. All the buffs to counters. All the new anti LRM features in the new game modes. All the new maps with tunnel like hard covers and giant sky scrapers in the coming map. All of this was done to make LRM ineffective. And when the community comes out with a list of proposed changes it suggests buffing the heat. All of this done in light of the constant LRMs are bad posts. All of this done while the number one faction play tip is don't bring LRMs. All of this done without one showing of a LRM boat in the championships.

And they say its because noobs will use them to kill each other if they where usable.

The noobs want use LRM 5s to kill each other. Check their usage numbers. They are extinct.
LRM 10s are as powerful as spit wads.
With very few exceptions you have to use assualts with at least four LRM 15s to have any real effect on the enemy.

It's a shame that I spent money on it.

Wheres my incentive PGI. What will I get for further investment.

More conspiracies against me from the developers. More salt for being bad from the community.

Wheres the incentive?

Shame

Because they catered to the "competitive" crowd (laughable) and the new players (I get it but it's mishandled). Not us "meat and potatoes" crowd. (No solid numbers but has to be 80%. And how much have we propped them up with $? 1 grand from me at least).

[HammerMaster]

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Noooot even going into ATMs right now, Khobai. This is about Why LRMs Aren't Balanced Properly.



Mixed builds don't teach much, other than "Look for these, they make great target practice.".

But a good build that's a few tons less gun and a few heat sinks more cooling, for example. Or an AC carrier that doesn't quite min-max firepower so a newbie can sustain longer. That sorta thing makes for more newbiefriendly builds than pure metapower does.

Mixed builds are lore appropriate and shouldn't be subject to your shaming.

[OmniFail]

HammerMaster, on 16 February 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

Because they catered to the "competitive" crowd (laughable) and the new players (I get it but it's mishandled). Not us "meat and potatoes" crowd. (No solid numbers but has to be 80%. And how much have we propped them up with $? 1 grand from me at least).

I'm just under $500. But there is some good news the money I'm saving on not buying the Blood Asp can be spent on FF XII and Playerunknows Battlegrounds.

Edited by OmniFail, 16 February 2018 - 03:36 PM.

[HammerMaster]

More things for me to "sleep on". I have dialed back due to diminished enjoyment.

[Brain Cancer]

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Mixed builds are lore appropriate and shouldn't be subject to your shaming.

Old championship-level tabletop player here. Mixed builds are lore appropriate because that way, FASA can put out more (often intentionally flawed) builds. They're frequently mediocre or even bad. They are made that way on purpose. I don't believe in handing intentionally mediocre or bad builds to newbies, it develops bad habits, like going against better players with mixed builds and not understanding why you trade horribly and die like a dog.

There's a reason why your average TT player will point to "This is good" followed by a picture of the Hellstar, not the Cyclops. Mixed builds can't maximize their effectiveness via position, meaning fire is irregular and often unreliable because your LRM doesn't hit accurately where your pulse laser does and vice versa.

[MrMilkshake]

Brain, Why on earth would you want them to be anything more than what they currently are ? A crutch for new and unskilled players. A tool for those to use to let them feel some of the heat of the action from time to time. Lurms are a point and squirt wepon that takes no skill and is a cheesy way to die if your in higher tiers. I for one dont want them to be anything more than what they are right now.

Edited by MrMilkshake, 16 February 2018 - 04:39 PM.

[HammerMaster]

Brain Cancer, on 16 February 2018 - 04:10 PM, said:

Old championship-level tabletop player here. Mixed builds are lore appropriate because that way, FASA can put out more (often intentionally flawed) builds. They're frequently mediocre or even bad. They are made that way on purpose. I don't believe in handing intentionally mediocre or bad builds to newbies, it develops bad habits, like going against better players with mixed builds and not understanding why you trade horribly and die like a dog.

There's a reason why your average TT player will point to "This is good" followed by a picture of the Hellstar, not the Cyclops. Mixed builds can't maximize their effectiveness via position, meaning fire is irregular and often unreliable because your LRM doesn't hit accurately where your pulse laser does and vice versa.

Hrmm.
FASA sandbagging? Say it isn't so.
Yes we always optimize.
My builds are usually what I've heard described as "superstock" flavor of the stock load out. Better.
But! Sounds to me like you don't like bracket builds.

Edited by HammerMaster, 16 February 2018 - 04:41 PM.

[Asym]

MrMilkshake, on 16 February 2018 - 04:37 PM, said:

Brain, Why on earth would you want them to be anything more than what they currently are ? A crutch for new and unskilled players. A tool for those to use to let them feel some of the heat of the action from time to time. Lurms are a point and squirt wepon that takes no skill and is a cheesy way to die if your in higher tiers. I for one dont want them to be anything more than what they are right now.

You are so confused....

Lasers are no skill because they are LOS = LOF and 100% effective if the reticle is on a target.
Lasers have: No defelection; No super elevation; Nothing complicated, other than put the reticle on the target and pulling the trigger...... WOW ! Such skill..... Try that with an UAC-2 at 1200m with a moving light and see how accurate you are.

LRMs, if they were rendered combat effective, would change the entire game dynamic because you no longer can poke and hide.... What can be seen can be hit and what can be hit can be killed..... Everyone would need AMS and RD or, they just die..... As it should be. As it is in real life. LRM's are not a crutch, they are just another weapon that people are affraid will disturb the simplicity MWO is becomming..... Look how well this thought process (nerfing for Solaris) is working with how many have left......