73 replies to this topic

[Davegt27]

should be asking people for time in battle numbers

[Gas Guzzler]

Interesting, based on how someone we know posts, I would have expected that EVERYONE feels TTK is WAY too short. I'm shocked, I say shocked, that most people think TTK is fine.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 23 February 2018 - 03:14 PM.

[Scyther]

Mixed response for me, so I had to go with 'too short'.

I actually feel that one-on-one, TTK is about right. In certain cases, mechs with unusually robust hitboxes or simply hard-to-hit issues (some lights), it is too long.

In practical game play however, when 2-3 mechs can all alpha you in the CT with little difficulty, IMO it generally works out to too short.

[Nightbird]

Escef, on 22 February 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

Some mechs survive longer than you'd think even when getting gangbeat. Especially fast ones with lanky limbs (Spider, Assassin).

You mean the mechs you're supposed to leg?

[Gas Guzzler]

MadBadger, on 23 February 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

when 2-3 mechs can all alpha you in the CT with little difficulty

In other words when you made an error?

[Jackal Noble]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 February 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

In other words when you made an error?

I really, really hate those errors.

[Khobai]

Gas Guzzler, on 23 February 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

Interesting, based on how someone we know posts, I would have expected that EVERYONE feels TTK is WAY too short. I'm shocked, I say shocked, that most people think TTK is fine.

I assume you mean me. But obviously you dont have any clue what youre talking about because I think TTK is mostly fine. the problem isnt that mechs dont have enough health.

The problem is that mechs cant torso twist for crap anymore because PGI nerfed agility so badly. As a result, damage doesnt get spread out as much anymore. Thats one of the major reasons why laser vomit has gotten so strong. That and the 80 damage CHLL/CERML combos which are out of hand.

But agility needs to be restored back to where it was before engine desync, so mechs can distribute damage across locations better.

As for improving TTK, if PGI really feels the need to do it, the best way would be going back to 8v8 in quickplay. I mean theres countless other reasons 8v8 should be brought back anyway, for the same reasons competitive play is 8v8, because 8v8 allows for more dynamic gameplay. Static gunlines and deathballing are far less dominant in 8v8 than 12v12. 8v8 conquest is the gold standard for dynamic gameplay that isnt dominated by a single tactic.

Quote

when 2-3 mechs can all alpha you in the CT with little difficulty

more like PGI made an error by nerfing torso twist. if assaults could torso twist like they used to that damage wouldnt all go in your CT. It would be spread out across multiple hit locations.

everyone complains about mechs like the atlas and direwolf. because their inability to torso twist has killed their ability to stay alive with such huge hitboxes.

and piling on structure/armor quirks doesnt really help if you cant torso twist fast enough to roll the damage across different hit locations. thats why atlases still die faster than annihilators. because the annihilator hitboxes are just plain better and spread around damage more.

Edited by Khobai, 23 February 2018 - 04:57 PM.

[Scyther]

@Gas Guzzler:

Yep, when I made an error. Because obviously that's the only possible time that 2-3 mechs could alpha someone before he can get off the spot.

It might interest you to discover that 90% of the player base of any game aren't elitist snobs who get their jollies out of acting superior towards people who 'just aren't leet enough'. And in general the economic model of all those games depends on that 90% more than it depends on the 5-10% of e-peeners who devote themselves to mastering the game.

It's something to keep in mind when deciding just who you are trying to make the game appeal to.

Edited by MadBadger, 23 February 2018 - 05:22 PM.

[Phlynn]

With the most recent additional mechs being lights that are designed to run fast with the only intent being blowing out back armor - who can really tell what is TTK? TTK in a fight isn't too bad. TTK when piloting an assault trying to catch up with the team nascar can be very short as you get run down from behind.

In most drops, I can tell if I will die in the first three minutes depending on where I drop in and the first 30 seconds of the team's movement.

The boring walk to fail to catch up to the nascar and die from having my back blown out may take less than a minute, but feels like forever. Rounding a corner and going down in the first minute leading a push that eventually leads to a good fight or victiory, feels just fine.

[PocketYoda]

Its way to fast, getting cored dead and spectating in less than 2 mins is broken.. This insta kill high alpha BS needs to go.. This is one aspect i agree with the devs on..

Considering the core demographic of the game never ever comes here and even looks at the forums these polls really aren't accurate at all..

This forum mainly consists of bitter clan vets who like the overpowered advantages they have acquired since alpha and changes will effect them.. So obviously high instant kills are what they want to keep.

Edited by Samial, 23 February 2018 - 06:56 PM.

[General Solo]

When I over extend TTK is too low
and
when hit reg (or my aim) is bad TTK is too High

Edited by OZHomerOZ, 23 February 2018 - 06:56 PM.

[PocketYoda]

Nightbird, on 22 February 2018 - 07:21 PM, said:

TTK will feel low for someone who makes the mistake of getting shot by multiple mechs without twisting. TTK will feel high for someone who sprays their damage everywhere without trying to focus down components. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Half the mechs can't twist anyway even if you do, you still get cored.. as the core juts out 10 feet sideways.. or tiny useless arms that protect zero... Twisting on a good number of mechs is pointless...

Edited by Samial, 23 February 2018 - 07:01 PM.

[Heeden]

TTK is too low in the mechs I pilot but too high on the mechs I shoot at.

[slide]

Escef, on 23 February 2018 - 08:42 AM, said:

I think your opinion is being colored by how much real-world time it takes to resolve those 10 second rounds.

Not so! I have never actually played TT. I have however played every computerized version of this game since the Crescent Hawks Inception. I have also read extensively and done much research. Whilst I am probably not as conversant as some here I am qualified to have an opinion on what is and is not BT.

In TT RNjesus was a ***** or a boon depending on your point of view, it's purpose was to simulate the fortunes of war. Lucky shots aside it would average out over time. Generally speaking far more relative damage would be done to mechs for a kill than what we have in MWO.

With reference to the 10 second turn. All weapons in TT fire (heat allowing) once. In MWO the weapons fire between 1.5 and 6 times in that same 10 seconds. This is a marked increase in relative fire power to TT even where the damage values are the same. To compensate we have doubled armor and structure. This makes any weapon that fires less than twice in 10 seconds relatively under powered and anything over that OP, relative to the TT. Firepower overall is a markedly higher in MWO.

Not to mention the relative worth (or not) of the size and shape of your mechs and it's hit boxes in MWO. A mechs success is entirely dependent on Alex's vision of what it looks like and then how the modelers interpret that vision. Big fat hit boxes will consign a mech to the dustbin before it even goes on sale. This is not an issue at all in TT as all mechs are the same and the die tells you what gets hit.

But the biggest difference is the spread damage/spread armor of TT versus the concentrated damage/spread armor of MWO. By way of example lets take the 6 PPC Stalker. 60 pt alpha, we'll assume it doesn't explode in TT.
-In TT you will likely hit a leg, an arm, the other arm, a torso and a clean miss. On all but the lightest of lights this hurts but is survivable. The Stalker would be at or near shut down.
-In MWO that alpha would remove a torso or leg on anything up to larger heavy and will leave anything else extremely vulnerable. The stalker can then cool shot and go again. This is only limited now by ghost heat.
This is also why spread damage such as LBX and missiles are comparatively worthless in MWO unless boated massively and will never be balanced with PPFLD weapons in MWO.

This and more is why I conclude TTK is to low.

TT is a game of attrition combined with healthy doses of luck, it is a game where any damage is good damage. MWO is a game of high alpha with pin point shooting, where any damage not applied to the desired spot is wasted.

IMO playing in Tier 4 or 5 is more how a BT game should feel (the low skills simulate the dice rolls more) than playing at high levels do.

As I said before MWO looks like BT, but it does not feel like BT. PGI and the community need to come to a consensus of what they want MWO to be, before there is any chance it can be balanced.

[Escef]

slide, on 23 February 2018 - 08:16 PM, said:

I have never actually played TT. ... I am qualified to have an opinion on what is and is not BT.

The only qualification for having an opinion is to have an opinion.

Saying that experience with PC games makes you some kind of arbiter of what is and isn't BT, despite lacking any experience with actual BT, is at best silly. That's like saying you watched Peter Jackson's adaptation of The Lord of the Rings, therefor you are a scholar of Tolkien's works.

[slide]

Just because I don't have the tools or equipment to rebuild an engine doesn't mean I don't understand how it works.

[YueFei]

slide, on 23 February 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

Just because I don't have the tools or equipment to rebuild an engine doesn't mean I don't understand how it works.

No, he's exactly right. You're like a guy declaring that you know exactly what LoTR is supposed to be without having even read the books (the original source), and only watched the movies.

If you haven't read the original LoTR books, your opinion on them is worth diddly squat because your opinion on them would be completely uninformed.

[Angus McFife VI]

TTK is more or less Juuuuuuust right. A little too much when you get shot by multiple high Alphas but that's usually your fault, but that's not a big deal. The only thing that may pose LITTLE a problem is impressive clan laser alphas.

[Escef]

slide, on 23 February 2018 - 08:56 PM, said:

Just because I don't have the tools or equipment to rebuild an engine doesn't mean I don't understand how it works.

That's correct. But just because you've seen a car doesn't mean you know to drive one.

[Nema Nabojiv]

MadBadger, on 23 February 2018 - 03:22 PM, said:

In practical game play however, when 2-3 mechs can all alpha you in the CT with little difficulty, IMO it generally works out to too short.

Imagine yourself on the other side for one. You stand there with two buddies, and you all land a perfect shot on enemy CT, and the target just wont die. Wouldn't that be great?

TTK is as much about you getting killed as it is about people shooting you to get you killed.