73 replies to this topic

[jss78]

Going to join the choir, TTK is currently just about right.

If I get focused by several 'mechs, I'll go down, but that really can't (or shouldn't) be helped. On the flip side, I get lots of those epic games where I endure quite a lot of fire and my 'mech is whittled away, but remains in the game, which I guess is the feel the "increase TTK" crowd is going for. This even happens in sturdier light 'mechs like the Wolfhound.

One measure I'd still support is 8-vs-8, which would reduce that likelihood of getting focused by 4+ 'mechs.

Tabletop is really a poor guide anyway, it's hilariously brutal with all the RNG and much bigger insta-kill potential than in this game. We'd all be slipping on pavement getting through-armour-crits to our ammo.

Edited by jss78, 24 February 2018 - 03:39 AM.

[Scyther]

@Nema Nabojiv:

Oddly enough, in any match I play, I *am* on the other side. And this side, simultaneously. Which is why I said one-on-one, TTK feels about right.

The problem is not imagining, wow, me and 3 friends coordinated our alphas on that guys CT and he didn't drop! Quel dommage!

So what? He dies on the next shot, but at least he gets a chance to maybe burn off a return alpha on one of you. Or even twist, back away, and re-position now that you are spotted.

The issue is, in typical match play, heavy PPFLD strike after heavy PPFLD strike can hit the same section repeatedly with whatever ease the aiming skill of the shooter can manage. The weakest sections being conveniently highlighted for all to see by the paper doll.

It's not a game 'breaker' because as the leets will tell you (repeatedly), most players can't really aim anyway. Many players don't pay much attention to the paper doll. In some fights TTK works out as not too bad. Very good players use skills and twisting and positioning to avoid taking major alphas to a single location as much as possible. Casual/average/poor players, when facing other players of similar skill, avoid the killer PPFLD due to luck, some skill, and the less concentrated/aimed fire of their opponents.

It's when you mix a few meta builds, some skilled players, and some favored-by-the-design-lords mech chassis in with the casuals and even the potatoes that TTK problems occur. Leading to frustration among the less skilled and (so they will tell you) a lack of satisfaction among the more skilled because they 'dont really enjoy those easy kills'.

If leets played leets, casuals played casuals and potatoes played potatoes with only a little crossover, I suspect TTK would be about right. Unfortunately, after driving away 95% of the 1.1 million interested gamers we started with, MWO can no longer come even close to a QP queue that does not mix all skill levels together just to make a match in under 5 minutes.

We can't magically conjure up players to fill the queues. We can change the way MM makes matches with the few remaining. And we can adjust TTK in various ways. Hopefully reasonable ones.

[Nema Nabojiv]

MadBadger, on 24 February 2018 - 05:05 AM, said:

So what? He dies on the next shot, but at least he gets a chance to maybe burn off a return alpha on one of you. Or even twist, back away, and re-position now that you are spotted.

When you increase TTK even more to give that guy another alpha that wont change anything you will inevitably fuсk up TTK in small engagements where as you said yourself it is ok right now.

In addition to that, increasing ttk will decrease the influence of your own skill and put you in dependence of your teammates because the sheer amount of HP to chew through will become even greater, and thus it becomes harder to overcome the numbers advantage which enemy team gets by killing your first two or three teammates.

I'm not theorizing here, that's basically what happened after transition from 8v8 to 12v12. Suddenly there's 30% more HP on the field and you cant carry anymore.
And then quirks came out, and then the skill tree and it became even worse.

[Scyther]

Well TBH I mostly agree with that. Personally I would change other game mechanics than simply increasing TTK. Unfortunately rational changes that appeal to more than the 5% of the BattleTech audience who are PPFLD-FPS fans don't seem to fly well, either with the forum crowd or with PGI. So TTK it is.

Edited by MadBadger, 24 February 2018 - 05:43 AM.

[Water Bear]

These results are interesting. Way back before clans were released I'd say TTK was about twice as long. I guess people have grown used to the way things are now.

[General Solo]

Civil debate
keep it up

[Scyther]

said the Viagra salesman...

[East Indy]

TTK varies partly through skill of players in a given match; and partly through conscious choices of more mixed, BattleTech-y loadouts.

High heat capacity, fast heat dissipation and easily gamed rules for controlling simultaneous firing turn location-based damage into a liability. It's one thing to walk around a corner and be hit by multiple 'Mechs, but it's another for those enemies to be able to straight-up alpha again and again, flush coolant and keep going. So players generally hide behind the next guy, and sneak damage until it's safe to actually engage in the open.

PGI designed MWO for stock 3025 tech, didn't know what to do with newer tech or smart MechLab customization, and the game has been mostly broken, held together with duct tape and players trying to keep to the spirit of the game's theme, since 2012.

[Angus McFife VI]

I wonder when people will stop asking for IS XL to becoming insanely overpowered and survive a side torso loss.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Dont LRM me please, on 24 February 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

I wonder when people will stop asking for IS XL to becoming insanely overpowered and survive a side torso loss.

Why? It wont increase TTK. You'll get more space for guns, that's it.

[Davegt27]

do people like tanky Mechs or soft Mechs??

that is the question

[PocketYoda]

Nema Nabojiv, on 24 February 2018 - 01:34 AM, said:

Imagine yourself on the other side for one. You stand there with two buddies, and you all land a perfect shot on enemy CT, and the target just wont die. Wouldn't that be great?

TTK is as much about you getting killed as it is about people shooting you to get you killed.

Yes that would be great and more accurate than we have now.

[Escef]

Samial, on 24 February 2018 - 07:31 PM, said:

Yes that would be great and more accurate than we have now.

Accurate of what?

[Khobai]

Quote

I wonder when people will stop asking for IS XL to becoming insanely overpowered and survive a side torso loss.

how is that insanely overpowered? Its the same way CXL works.

if IS spends the same tonnage for an engine as clans, their engine should be equally good

thats exactly why the game isnt balanced now...



ISXL 300 weighs 15.5 tons, CXL 300 also weighs 15.5 tons

so how is it balanced for ISXL to not survive side torso blowout while CXL does? not to mention the ISXL takes up 2 additional crit slots too.

for IS to get an engine with the same rating and survivability as CXL they have to spend 20.5 tons on an LFE 300, a full 5 tons more.

thats the very definition of unbalanced.

this is why PGI cant balance their game. because they refuse to balance the techbase fundamentals like engines.



same with IS DHS. IS DHS take up 3 crit slots, C DHS take up 2 crit slots

so why are IS DHS not better than C DHS? they cost more. they should be better.

all IS DHS should be true double heatsinks

and IS FF/ES should be stronger than C FF/ES too. because they take up twice the number of crits.

Edited by Khobai, 25 February 2018 - 01:00 AM.

[Asym]

MadBadger, on 24 February 2018 - 05:05 AM, said:

If leets played leets, casuals played casuals and potatoes played potatoes with only a little crossover, I suspect TTK would be about right. Unfortunately, after driving away 95% of the 1.1 million interested gamers we started with, MWO can no longer come even close to a QP queue that does not mix all skill levels together just to make a match in under 5 minutes.

We can't magically conjure up players to fill the queues. We can change the way MM makes matches with the few remaining. And we can adjust TTK in various ways. Hopefully reasonable ones.

What you have said is critical to this discussion. TTK is determined by the need to retain players as dictated by gameplay.... In other words, if we have large open maps with teams using tactics, with defined roles to support those tactics, then, short TTK works because of the distances and terrain! If you put everyone in a small arena, and killing stompy robots by blowing them apart, piece by piece, is the vision for the new game, well, TTK has to take far longer to keep those player's attention......makes the non-thinking game fun for them.

MWO is all about "Stompy Robot Killers" now and Solaris is the strategic goal.........TTK will need to extend arena time to:

1) retain the stompy robot killers who are now the majority of the player base
2) allows matches to take the full time alloted and one shot alpha's will be a thing of the past
3) be long enough to entice the stomp robot killers to buy the "new" meta mech or weapons
4) be as long and as absoultey simple as possible to keep "kids" and new players entertained so that they buy mech packs and we'll see micro-transactions soon there after for low cost "add ons" that enhance looks and simple gameplay advantages...

Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong............ How else can you explain thousands of players abandoning a game they really love???

Edited by Asym, 25 February 2018 - 08:55 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Asym, on 25 February 2018 - 08:51 AM, said:

Go ahead, tell me I'm wrong............ How else can you explain thousands of players abandoning a game they really love???

You're wrong, just as you were wrong when you claimed they were "encouraging brawling for Solaris" by nerfing SRMs, MRMs & Medium class lasers. You know, most of the brawling weapons.

Why are people leaving?
- Lack of meaningful content
- Lack of new maps
- Lack of new "community accepted" game modes
- Lack of CW support
- Lack of communication
- Lack of balance
- So many broken promises
- So much back pedaling ("that was our position at the time")

[Angus McFife VI]

Jay Leon Hart, on 25 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

You're wrong, just as you were wrong when you claimed they were "encouraging brawling for Solaris" by nerfing SRMs, MRMs & Medium class lasers. You know, most of the brawling weapons.

Why are people leaving?
- Lack of meaningful content
- Lack of new maps
- Lack of new "community accepted" game modes
- Lack of CW support
- Lack of communication
- Lack of balance
- So many broken promises
- So much back pedaling ("that was our position at the time")

Is this game really dying though? Is there actual evidence to support the dwindling playerbase?

[Davegt27]

Dont LRM me please, on 25 February 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

Is this game really dying though? Is there actual evidence to support the dwindling playerbase?

nope things are fine its just needs to recover after the skill tree chased a bunch of players away

[Asym]

Jay Leon Hart, on 25 February 2018 - 09:36 AM, said:

You're wrong, just as you were wrong when you claimed they were "encouraging brawling for Solaris" by nerfing SRMs, MRMs & Medium class lasers. You know, most of the brawling weapons.

Why are people leaving?
- Lack of meaningful content
- Lack of new maps
- Lack of new "community accepted" game modes
- Lack of CW support
- Lack of communication
- Lack of balance
- So many broken promises
- So much back pedaling ("that was our position at the time")

JLH, with respect for your opinion, yes, you have good points......but, not the cause.

We were right this time last year when we predicted Solaris and the Skill Tree change based on Solaris.... It's why entire teams left MWO.... Seriously....they did not want to be involved in an arena FPS..... They wanted an expansion to Faction Play, a place to have a CW and all of the reasons you named contributed..... But, Solaris is the actual reason. A huge paradigm shift that is changing the entire footprint of the game.

Two complete teams left MWO...... That's just under a hundred players (84+/- depending on when you count.) 6 now are P/T and play for events. Another 15 or so read the forums and play maybe, 5 to 8 hours a month or if there is an event with MC, more... Who knows where this will end?

[Seranov]

Asym, on 25 February 2018 - 12:50 PM, said:

JLH, with respect for your opinion, yes, you have good points......but, not the cause.

We were right this time last year when we predicted Solaris and the Skill Tree change based on Solaris.... It's why entire teams left MWO.... Seriously....they did not want to be involved in an arena FPS..... They wanted an expansion to Faction Play, a place to have a CW and all of the reasons you named contributed..... But, Solaris is the actual reason. A huge paradigm shift that is changing the entire footprint of the game.

Two complete teams left MWO...... That's just under a hundred players (84+/- depending on when you count.) 6 now are P/T and play for events. Another 15 or so read the forums and play maybe, 5 to 8 hours a month or if there is an event with MC, more... Who knows where this will end?

It will end with people playing the game as they always have. Solaris will be an option that most players will likely not engage in, while Quick Play will continue to exist like it always has. FW is, and has been since long before I played this game, a mess that isn't even worth funneling work into. Increasing TTK will not have a negative effect on anyone in any of the modes this game offers.

Again, we get it, Solaris rustles your jimmies something fierce. You're gonna have to get over it, though, because most people don't care, and Solaris will be here in two months.