63 replies to this topic

[AutoCannon Addict]

I realize I may be out of line for even posting this, but here it goes. I've been seeing all of these people running nothing but machine guns, but in reality atleast in other mechwarrior games machine guns should not do nearly as much damage to a mech unless they are already opened up for critting. So why are they doing so much damage and stripping armor off Atlas's center torso so quickly? What is PGI going to do about this?

[FupDup]

AutoCannon Addict, on 24 February 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

...but in reality atleast in other mechwarrior games machine guns should not do nearly as much damage to a mech unless they are already opened up for critting...

Machine Guns as crit-seekers is something that has never existed in any incarnation of MW or BT until MWO. Every other form of the series has had MGs as general-purpose weapons effective against armor, excluding the fan-mod MWLL (not an official product).

[Kin3ticX]

AutoCannon Addict, on 24 February 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

I realize I may be out of line for even posting this, but here it goes. I've been seeing all of these people running nothing but machine guns, but in reality atleast in other mechwarrior games machine guns should not do nearly as much damage to a mech unless they are already opened up for critting. So why are they doing so much damage and stripping armor off Atlas's center torso so quickly? What is PGI going to do about this?

Machinegun boating is PGI's latest fancy. It started when the MLX and ACH omnipods came out last year. They doubled down on it with the Piranha for reasons I cant even fathom.

Edited by Kin3ticX, 24 February 2018 - 05:55 PM.

[N0ni]

AutoCannon Addict, on 24 February 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

but in reality atleast in other mechwarrior games machine guns should not do nearly as much damage to a mech unless they are already opened up for critting.

False. In MW2: Mercs and MW3 if you boated enough MGs, you could literally CT core a fresh Atlas from the front in just a couple seconds.

The 12 MG Mad Dog will forever be the brawling champion in those games.

[WrathOfDeadguy]

N0ni, on 24 February 2018 - 05:59 PM, said:

False. In MW2: Mercs and MW3 if you boated enough MGs, you could literally CT core a fresh Atlas from the front in just a couple seconds.

Heh, that and zero hardpoint restrictions- closer to TT build rules. Want to build an ANH with every free crit filled with MGs and ammo? Nooothing stoppin' ya. Stick a few of 'em in the legs if you're feeling cheeky.

[Yosharian]

The issue with this game has always been boating. Always.

This is an inherent problem with the game because you're taking a tabletop gaming system and turning it into a pinpoint aim FPS game.

Machineguns aren't the problem, boating is.

[FupDup]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 24 February 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

Heh, that and zero hardpoint restrictions- closer to TT build rules. Want to build an ANH with every free crit filled with MGs and ammo? Nooothing stoppin' ya. Stick a few of 'em in the legs if you're feeling cheeky.

I dunno about MW2, but MW3 had a hard limit of 16 weapons (probably for UI reasons rather than balance) and no leg weapons.

[Bombast]

Kin3ticX, on 24 February 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

Machinegun boating is PGI's latest fancy. It started when the MLX and ACH omnipods came out last year. They doubled down on it with the Piranha for reasons I cant even fathom.

The Clan's needed a 20 tonner, and the only ones people asked for were the Fire Moth (Even after PGI told everyone that was absolutely not happening) and the Piranha. So here we are.

[N0ni]

WrathOfDeadguy, on 24 February 2018 - 06:11 PM, said:

Stick a few of 'em in the legs if you're feeling cheeky.

That's pretty much what most did in multiplayer, boating small pulses (with some in the legs) and jump jets. Fly at your opponent at 400+ kph and unload a bunch of cool running pulse vomit. Then there was the MG Mad Dog running at the speed of MWO Stormcrow with max speed tweak.

[PocketYoda]

Agreed in my opinion MWO main issues are all weapons range is too far and boating weapons as above said.. fix those two issues and the game would be a lot more balanced.

[Grus]

[LT. HARDCASE]

Kin3ticX, on 24 February 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

Machinegun boating is PGI's latest fancy. It started when the MLX and ACH omnipods came out last year. They doubled down on it with the Piranha for reasons I cant even fathom.

The reason was for the money, friend.

Marketing wise it rode the machine gun wave, was a blatantly strong mech out of the box, made Clan drop decks stronger, and shares the company name as a bonus. Probably the smartest money making move, mech pack wise, since pricing the Clan Collection at $240.

[El Bandito]

AutoCannon Addict, on 24 February 2018 - 05:45 PM, said:

I realize I may be out of line for even posting this, but here it goes. I've been seeing all of these people running nothing but machine guns, but in reality atleast in other mechwarrior games machine guns should not do nearly as much damage to a mech unless they are already opened up for critting. So why are they doing so much damage and stripping armor off Atlas's center torso so quickly? What is PGI going to do about this?

Actually MG by lore has as much damage as an AC2. In MWO it is watered down unless structure is exposed.

[Asym]

Kin3ticX, on 24 February 2018 - 05:55 PM, said:

Machinegun boating is PGI's latest fancy. It started when the MLX and ACH omnipods came out last year. They doubled down on it with the Piranha for reasons I cant even fathom.

That's simple: SOLARIS

[N0ni]

El Bandito, on 24 February 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

Actually MG by lore has as much damage as an AC2. In MWO it is watered down unless structure is exposed.

Imagine if we kept those lore values. Mechs with multiple ballistics would be OP. From the Spider 5K all the way to the more current Piranha/BLanner. Would be fun as hell running those fast MG boats and at the same time a bit annoying to deal with as a fatty at least in mass. Then there would be cries of P2W with the Huginn/Ember/Cipher/Shard (pod swapping the arms)/Fury(LOL)/Arrow/Bellonarius/etc.

Wouldn't be much use of the AC2 unless for mid to long range. I think Paul would quit if we had lore values and no option in changing it. LOL

[Der Geisterbaer]

Yosharian, on 24 February 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

The issue with this game has always been boating.  Always.

And when actually taking a closer look it's not just a "problem" of "this" game but in pretty much every game where multiples of the same weapon can be used.

Yosharian, on 24 February 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

This is an inherent problem with the game because you're taking a tabletop gaming system and turning it into a pinpoint aim FPS game.

That's the kind of argument you get when people actually haven't done their homework. Boating of specific weaponry in the TT creates pretty much the same picture despite the random damage distribution instead of "pin point accuracy" (which doesn't actually exist for machine guns in MWO due to spread mechanics): As long as you're not trying to declare a wide open terrain as the default map in TT 3ML generally perform better than 1LL ... and in small fast mechs 6SL will overall show better performance than 3ML. And just for the record: A single 12 mg Piranha is just as annoying and dangerous to big targets in TT as it is here should its player keep winning initiative. And since TT games are commonly played with BV a single heavy or assault mech can easily be pitched against 2 or 3 of them.

=> The transition from TT to this shooter doesn't create a new "inherent" problem for this game. If anything an already existing problem merely becomes more prominent

Yosharian, on 24 February 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

Machineguns aren't the problem, boating is.

Let's just say that this - while not being entirely false - is just too broad of stroke to describe the problem ... provided that one sees this "machine gun madness" as an actual problem in the first place.

[Catra Lanis]

I'd say that there is a problem. Not a big one perhaps but a problem. The problem is when fighting other lights. The Piranha is good at this maybe a bit too good and it's because of how machine guns work.

Most lights don't have the tonnage for ballistics so it's medium or small lasers. I've been fighting Pirahnas in my Raven and I loose a lot more than I win and I think I know why. With 3 or 4 ml or mpl you need to kill your opponent within 2 or max 3 salvos and those need to be almost perfect ones. Mostly you are only going to do half or less damage when lights are circling each other facerolling the keyboard. This means that the vast majority of players will need at least 4 shots. Over the years I've seen very few players in QP that can reliably kill a light in another light with 2-3 shots.

Now the machine gun mech needs only to keep the reticle on the torso while holding the mouse button down which is easier and if he can survive 2 or 3 shots which is likely, then he'll win because by that time he'll have sawed off the other lights ST due to constant damage, it's lke a DoT ticking away.

[N0ni]

Catra Lanis, on 25 February 2018 - 01:41 AM, said:

Now the machine gun mech needs only to keep the reticle on the torso while holding the mouse button down which is easier and if he can survive 2 or 3 shots which is likely, then he'll win because by that time he'll have sawed off the other lights ST due to constant damage, it's lke a DoT ticking away.

Just by taking this paragraph, would this in theory make the Firestorm better than the Ember since it's easier to keep the arm MGs on target than torso MGs? (more range of motion)

[Y E O N N E]

N0ni, on 25 February 2018 - 01:53 AM, said:

Just by taking this paragraph, would this in theory make the Firestorm better than the Ember since it's easier to keep the arm MGs on target than torso MGs? (more range of motion)

If the Firestorm also gets the 25% MG quirk (and it should TBQH)? Yes. But it's a slim advantage, one which PGI can and should mitigate by allowing the Ember (and all Firestarters) to pitch the goddamn torso more than 15 degrees up or down.

Edited by Yeonne Greene, 25 February 2018 - 02:05 AM.

[DaManBearPig]

*nearly gets a dathstar in a PIR-1*
MGs are fine, leave them alone!