112 replies to this topic

[paws2sky]

Supple Cache transition is pretty much as expcted.

32-bit is a surprise. Will this positively impact 64-bit users? Maybe a more optimized client or something?

Respect cost is nice, but... it really doesn't help newer players. Still watching my kids (tier 4 and 5) struggle to get their tiny stable of mechs upgraded with better gear and make process on skills. To paraphrase, "The c-bill cost of SP is too damn high!"

-paws

[Arkhangel]

@paws: it'll positively affect the game period. if i recall, the 32-bit stuff is part of why there's that speed limit on mechs. if that gets canned, we might start seeing the insanely fast guys like the Fire Moth, Stiletto, Fire Falcon and Fireball show up.

[Sigmar Sich]

Primary impact of 64-bit is more memory usage by client. Means more new content. So it is more decals, bolt-ons, more mechpacks. Also new textures (camos) and sounds, if PGI willing.

As for faster mechs, it is server side. I doubt it was 32-bit. But if so, yes, most likely we will see improvements.

P.S. I think this cancellation of 32-bit support is overhyped. Most likely it means only "we can no longer keep memory usage under 3GB, so we no longer support 32-bit". It doesn't automatically mean "we will make use of opportunities of 64-bit client".

[Buenaventura]

While the c-bill cost for skills doesn't bother me much, the XP you get for a match is way too small. Sure, there are those great games, where you get your first win of the day, too, and get 4000+ XP out of it. But then there are those where you do okish, but the enemy team is just better and you leave with 100 XP. Shift those XP rewards around a bit, to make even a lost game more rewarding. More XP for removed limbs of enemies f.e., or XP for shared armour, something like that.

[MrKvola]

MovinTarget, on 28 February 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

That's semantics, objects are conceptual and can be defined as "just an integer" or "just a string of alpha characters" or "just a thoughtful memo from the Oval Office"... Like I said, conceptual

And yes, a key could be a unique integer, but it would be unwise to make it so simple. It is much more likely to be a value like a license key; something that appears random but can be plugged into a black box to be validated both as a real key *and* previously unused. It may even be represented as a hash value (collisions?) that would look like a big random number that encapsulate information about how/when the key was acquired.

I explain all this, but I stand by my previous assertion that the problem of segragating "discount" keys from "full price" keys would come to the forefront...

I beg to differ here. It is not semantics, but all about code implementation.

Somehow I do not see the reason to have anything else than an integer variable (keys_owned=5) present in the system to represent the number of keys owned (5, in this example). All the transactions are handled in the back end so there is no reason to have object code or hash representations for each separate key as there is no validation necessary - you are not inserting them from the front end into the back end. The variable just denotes how many caches you are allowed to open. If the variable is at 0 you are required to purchase at least one key to open more caches. Absolutely zero reason to make it more complicated than that. Now if the implementation is more complex, I would actually find that not very smart or useful - creating zero benefit while using more CPU power.

And as a result, being able to separate normal from discount keys would most probably require a completely new implementation of the key/cache system (which does not even begin to make sense, since it is being reworked to remove the keys). Just remember that they are not even trying to separate out the keys that people won in various challenges/events. I saw people having around 90 keys or so, claiming that they purchased (and used) zero ever since the system was introduced.

It also does not even begin to make sense to have a key sale about now. Either people buy the keys and get their loot or all is converted to 50k c-bills a pop. There is not that much money to be earned here anyway, compared to say 'mechpacks in order to warrant any additional work on this.

[D V Devnull]

Okay, I don't want to create a wall-of-text, and it seems I'm at least 5 pages late to this thread... So I'm just going to keep my thoughts simple and boil it down for quick reading...

Skill Tree 'Respec Cost' Removal

This is probably a good thing, but only if it does NOT come with some 'gotcha' somewhere. (Yeah, I'm looking at everyone who handles balancing. Don't pull something nasty or you're going to have a lot of angry "Change It Back!" people.)

Supply Cache System Redesign

Well, it's good that we won't have to worry about needing a Key anymore to open them. However, it's sad that the return given by PGI for acquisitions granted to players by the game itself (and for actually playing matches) won't even net near as much as actually opening them. I'm guessing that there's some strange technical reason that PGI's Staff is unable to carry the old ones over and make them into new ones. Now if only they would cough up that infamous "why" and not keep us in the dark.

32-Bit Support Removal & End-Of-Life of MWO 32-Bit Client

Damnit, PGI... Here's the one that really gets me angry, and I guess a tad hard to avoid doing a "Wall Of Text" over... Heck, I personally found 32-Bit MWO to generally be more stable than 64-Bit MWO on any system with less than 16 GB of RAM, even on 64-Bit Windows Systems... They do all these silent things, fail to give a Proper Large Announcement, and then think everyone's going to be happy?

WRONG.

PGI really NEEDS to give a Proper Large Announcement on the Front Page of the MWO Website and News, and like ANY Proper Company should then be waiting 4 Months Minimum from the time of that Announcement to when they actually drop 32-Bit Support! It's literally wrong to just do a bunch of quiet things, and then decide to drop the Anvil with only a single month to spare. People who live in areas with Bad Economy Issues will simply NOT be able to change over and compensate that fast, as it requires Real $$$ to do so!!!

I guess PGI has decided to just throw out a bunch of their player base through Technical Limitations, because that's now exactly what will happen. Unfortunately, most of them won't be able to change over, so MWO will yet again lose another part of its' Community. And the people who got ejected wrongfully? Well, that's only going to hurt MWO even more as Bad Reviews & Negative Word-Of-Mouth get spread, damaging the inflow of new players. Plus, those people who got wronged by PGI will just go play something else, resulting in the queues having less players and taking longer to provide matches. I can tell you right now, we did NOT need that!!! Heck, can you say "PGI-Generated Self-Sabotage", as we're looking at MWO taking a hit in how long it could survive?!?!?

...and my apologies to anyone who didn't want a long scroll in their face again. Some things just get excessively under my skin, causing me to finally unleash my thoughts. Anyway, pardon me while I head for the battlefield... I'm a little 'burned out' on Forums, so it's time to shoot something.

~Mr. D. V. "Well, a Dinner Break caused this post to take a while to type up..." Devnull




(p.s.: You have got to be kidding me... Five Hours to type this post out, all because I had to take a step away from the PC for dinner??? AUGH!!!)

[clan hope]

CoffeeFrame, on 27 February 2018 - 02:22 PM, said:

Having to support 32-bit systems is holding everyone on 64-bit systems back. 64-bit has been standard on PCs for years now and is damn near universal (source: http://store.steampo...d.com/hwsurvey/)

yes you say that but not every game is now newer comps and i think we will loose a already down hill player base . im just saying thats what im seeing . i refuse to buy mech warrior 5 . if they cant fix the things that are wrong with this game im not going there .

[Tank]

Good changes. Gained some respect here PGI.

[C E Dwyer]

Rhialto, on 27 February 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

Still no words if BOLT-ON will stick better than decals:



Lets say you nailed it with bolt-on, do you think decls can be converted to work the same way?

Usually if they haven't answered within a day two at most, you can expect the worse

[C E Dwyer]

Ground up redesign

armored warfare, low population like this

If I log in seven days straight I get

120,001 in game currency

100 gold

1 day of premium

2 supply crates filled with boosts of Ingame credits XP boosts sometimes another supply case or up to 30 days premium time


This I get for simply logging in I don't have to spend rl money to open anything, or even play a single game.


I doubt very much that the new cache system will be as close to being as useful, and will be an R.L money sink .

[Horseman]

D V Devnull, on 01 March 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

Supply Cache System Redesign

Well, it's good that we won't have to worry about needing a Key anymore to open them. However, it's sad that the return given by PGI for acquisitions granted to players by the game itself (and for actually playing matches) won't even net near as much as actually opening them. I'm guessing that there's some strange technical reason that PGI's Staff is unable to carry the old ones over and make them into new ones. Now if only they would cough up that infamous "why" and not keep us in the dark.

Because then nobody would be buying keys to open caches and instead hold them all until the new system goes live.

I think most of us would be happy if there was an event that rewarded cache keys so that we could choose to either open the caches we have or wait for the MC refund.

D V Devnull, on 01 March 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

PGI really NEEDS to give a Proper Large Announcement on the Front Page of the MWO Website and News, and like ANY Proper Company should then be waiting 4 Months Minimum from the time of that Announcement to when they actually drop 32-Bit Support! It's literally wrong to just do a bunch of quiet things, and then decide to drop the Anvil with only a single month to spare. People who live in areas with Bad Economy Issues will simply NOT be able to change over and compensate that fast, as it requires Real $$$ to do so!!!
I guess PGI has decided to just throw out a bunch of their player base through Technical Limitations, because that's now exactly what will happen. Unfortunately, most of them won't be able to change over, so MWO will yet again lose another part of its' Community.

You're overreacting. This FUD and misinformation serves nobody.

I already explained: pretty much any CPU new enough to run MWO acceptably is also new enough to support the 64-bit instruction set, and anyone who isn't still stuck in the dark ages of Windows XP and/or Vista can legally upgrade their OS to a 64-bit version with no real difficulty and no extra cost.

For those on XP? You have my sympathy, but the writing was on the wall for four years - ever since Microsoft dropped support for it, it was only a question of when, not if software developers would follow suit.

clan hope, on 01 March 2018 - 02:06 AM, said:

yes you say that but not every game is now newer comps and i think we will loose a already down hill player base . im just saying thats what im seeing . i refuse to buy mech warrior 5 . if they cant fix the things that are wrong with this game im not going there .

Look at Steam's statistics. Players still on 32-bit operating systems account for 3.4% of the total.

If someone is still stuck on 12 year old hardware because they can't afford an upgrade - even when complete refurbished machines from later generations can be grabbed under $200 - then they are unlikely to be generating any revenue for PGI, while maintaining support for the 32-bit client literally costs PGI money and effort they could spend on improving the 64-bit client instead.

Are PGI's actions nice? No. But, as much as it sucks to be on their wrong end. they are reasonable under the circumstances

[Dee Eight]

Horseman, on 01 March 2018 - 05:14 AM, said:

If someone is still stuck on 12 year old hardware because they can't afford an upgrade - even when complete refurbished machines from later generations can be grabbed under $200 - then they are unlikely to be generating any revenue for PGI, while maintaining support for the 32-bit client literally costs PGI money and effort they could spend on improving the 64-bit client instead.

THAT is why software developers drop 32 bit support. Why are we wasting time/money supporting obsolete tech for cheapskates who aren't a source of revenue to us.

[MovinTarget]

MrKvola, on 28 February 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:

I beg to differ here. It is not semantics, but all about code implementation.

Somehow I do not see the reason to have anything else than an integer variable (keys_owned=5) present in the system to represent the number of keys owned (5, in this example). All the transactions are handled in the back end so there is no reason to have object code or hash representations for each separate key as there is no validation necessary - you are not inserting them from the front end into the back end. The variable just denotes how many caches you are allowed to open. If the variable is at 0 you are required to purchase at least one key to open more caches. Absolutely zero reason to make it more complicated than that. Now if the implementation is more complex, I would actually find that not very smart or useful - creating zero benefit while using more CPU power.

And as a result, being able to separate normal from discount keys would most probably require a completely new implementation of the key/cache system (which does not even begin to make sense, since it is being reworked to remove the keys). Just remember that they are not even trying to separate out the keys that people won in various challenges/events. I saw people having around 90 keys or so, claiming that they purchased (and used) zero ever since the system was introduced.

It also does not even begin to make sense to have a key sale about now. Either people buy the keys and get their loot or all is converted to 50k c-bills a pop. There is not that much money to be earned here anyway, compared to say 'mechpacks in order to warrant any additional work on this.

That would be dangerous if there was a bored/enterprising/vindictive user that decided to simply find a way to insert "Keys = 1,000" ESPECIALLY right before there is a refund (1000 Keys = 25k MC). Then he an his best friends can all set up alt accounts, do this and see how long it takes for PGI to catch them.

Big woop? right? Well, next thing you know PGI has to spend time and resources tracking these feckers down, banning them without banning people that are legit. That eats into other projects, etc. So I really hope they didn't simply implement "Keys = X"

If you want to assert that it would be impossible for someone to hack a simple key count I will grant you it is not likely but it will NEVER be impossible nor inconceivable because like I said, there are lots of bored/enterprising/vindictive people out there...

Dee Eight, on 01 March 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

THAT is why software developers drop 32 bit support. Why are we wasting time/money supporting obsolete tech for cheapskates who aren't a source of revenue to us.

It is a delicate thing. Why do they have big events that give away free swag (remember 12/2717; 2 free mechs for just showing up...)?

Because they are trying to prove to someone that they can still park butts in seats to play this game. I dunno if they are "shareholders" or what, but the exclusion of 32 bit support must be calculated in that regard for risk/reward.

[Horseman]

Dee Eight, on 01 March 2018 - 06:11 AM, said:

THAT is why software developers drop 32 bit support. Why are we wasting time/money supporting obsolete tech for cheapskates who aren't a source of revenue to us.

"... when we could do something that would get the other 95% to spend actual money on our product? (would you like to buy a mech pack?)"

[Dee Eight]

Horseman, on 01 March 2018 - 06:30 AM, said:

"... when we could do something that would get the other 95% to spend actual money on our product? (would you like to buy a mech pack?)"

IF eliminating 32 bit support lets them implement any change that would only work once the game goes completely 64 bit... like improving the Hit registry even 10%... that would be worth it.

[HGAK47]

About bloody time for the skill tree unlocked nodes XP change. Thanks.

[Grinster]

I started playing this game using Crossover on Linux and it worked really well as 32-bit until the April patch two years ago. I have been testing every release combination since then but no progress. So farewell 32-bit. Win 10 only MWO.

[MovinTarget]

Grinster, on 01 March 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

I started playing this game using Crossover on Linux and it worked really well as 32-bit until the April patch two years ago. I have been testing every release combination since then but no progress. So farewell 32-bit. Win 10 only MWO.

Win 7 still works very well....?

[MrKvola]

MovinTarget, on 01 March 2018 - 06:22 AM, said:

That would be dangerous if there was a bored/enterprising/vindictive user that decided to simply find a way to insert "Keys = 1,000" ESPECIALLY right before there is a refund (1000 Keys = 25k MC). Then he an his best friends can all set up alt accounts, do this and see how long it takes for PGI to catch them.

Big woop? right? Well, next thing you know PGI has to spend time and resources tracking these feckers down, banning them without banning people that are legit. That eats into other projects, etc. So I really hope they didn't simply implement "Keys = X"

If you want to assert that it would be impossible for someone to hack a simple key count I will grant you it is not likely but it will NEVER be impossible nor inconceivable because like I said, there are lots of bored/enterprising/vindictive people out there...

The question is, can you? If the system is set up right, the number of keys is not something you could insert. It is not an operation that is allowed for the front end, ever. And looking at the front end interface it is set up exactly as that.

Another question is: what is easier (and more efficient) to do, sanitize your front end inputs, or develop security through obscurity?



Anyway, as much as I enjoyed this academic debate, I see little reason to continue it, as it is somewhat pointless now

Edited by MrKvola, 01 March 2018 - 01:50 PM.

[Horseman]

Grinster, on 01 March 2018 - 12:01 PM, said:

I started playing this game using Crossover on Linux and it worked really well as 32-bit until the April patch two years ago. I have been testing every release combination since then but no progress. So farewell 32-bit. Win 10 only MWO.

Win 7 x64 and Win 8 x64 are both viable options.