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8V8 Discussion


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#361 LordBraxton

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 10:33 AM

I keep waiting for 8v8 to come back to the game. I prefer being able to impact matches more, rather than less. People who like 12v12 and better just want to get carried.

#362 WarHippy

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 12:03 PM

View PostLordBraxton, on 13 March 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

I keep waiting for 8v8 to come back to the game. I prefer being able to impact matches more, rather than less. People who like 12v12 and better just want to get carried.

That is a stupid statement. It would be like me saying the people who want 8v8 are more interested in a single player experience, or prefer clubbing baby seals over working together and being challenged.

Edited by WarHippy, 13 March 2018 - 12:03 PM.


#363 Solahma

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 01:19 PM

View PostWarHippy, on 13 March 2018 - 12:03 PM, said:

That is a stupid statement. It would be like me saying the people who want 8v8 are more interested in a single player experience, or prefer clubbing baby seals over working together and being challenged.

It's not a stupid statement. It's exactly correct. 8v8 is more reliant on performance and balance. 12v12 is more reliant on teamwork and coordination.

Neither are wrong or stupid.

You can also work on less dramatization and exaggeration. It's not seal clubbing. And it's certainly not lacking in teamwork or coordination.

Your lack of vision on the big picture is note worthy, but not surprising.

#364 Imperius

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 01:20 PM

View PostJess Hazen, on 13 March 2018 - 07:07 AM, said:


good we don't want 8v8, we want the game to be successful and maintain 12v12. in the mean time train your patience for 1min at a time.

View PostJess Hazen, on 13 March 2018 - 07:10 AM, said:

instead of discussing 8v8, i propose we discuss 20v20. discuss

Do better research. 8v8 will be going up for vote after Solaris drops.

Source: https://twitter.com/...5957484544?s=21

#365 WarHippy

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:11 PM

View PostSolahma, on 13 March 2018 - 01:19 PM, said:

It's not a stupid statement. It's exactly correct. 8v8 is more reliant on performance and balance. 12v12 is more reliant on teamwork and coordination.

Neither are wrong or stupid.

You can also work on less dramatization and exaggeration. It's not seal clubbing. And it's certainly not lacking in teamwork or coordination.

Your lack of vision on the big picture is note worthy, but not surprising.

You struggle with context and reading comprehension don't you? The relevant part of what I quoted "People who like 12v12 and better just want to get carried." was a stupid comment about the people who want 12v12 and I responded with an equally stupid comment about what 8v8 people want. To use your own gif. Posted Image
Posted Image



That being said in 8v8 the individual performance has more meaning than it does in 12v12. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in the context of a team game I would prefer less importance on the individual. As you said "12v12 is more reliant on teamwork and coordination." and that is what i think we should be striving for not solo stardom which can and should be had in the Solaris environment using 1v1 and 2v2 arenas.

#366 Imperius

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:18 PM

View PostWarHippy, on 13 March 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

You struggle with context and reading comprehension don't you? The relevant part of what I quoted "People who like 12v12 and better just want to get carried." was a stupid comment about the people who want 12v12 and I responded with an equally stupid comment about what 8v8 people want. To use your own gif. Posted Image
Posted Image



That being said in 8v8 the individual performance has more meaning than it does in 12v12. That isn't necessarily a bad thing, but in the context of a team game I would prefer less importance on the individual. As you said "12v12 is more reliant on teamwork and coordination." and that is what i think we should be striving for not solo stardom which can and should be had in the Solaris environment using 1v1 and 2v2 arenas.

Yet the constant in this community is not to listen to any drop callers and most of us have had our units quit playing already because lets punish group play. You know the only thing that gives a game longevity. Playing the game with friends.

Honestly I don't feel like having two jobs and that is what playing this game feels like for me.

#367 WarHippy

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:32 PM

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

Yet the constant in this community is not to listen to any drop callers and most of us have had our units quit playing already because lets punish group play. You know the only thing that gives a game longevity. Playing the game with friends.
I agree, but that has little to do with 8v8 or 12v12. PGI themselves did a lot to hurt group dynamics in this game a long time ago with the shenanigans they pulled with limiting groups to 4 etc.. Although, I have seen more people of late listening to drop callers in the rare case anyone bothers to call anything beyond "go to this box and fight/die". I just don't see how going to 8v8 is supposed to help that.

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

Honestly I don't feel like having two jobs and that is what playing this game feels like for me.
I understand that, but 8v8 isn't going to change that for you. The core problems and the sameness of the game play isn't going to change much if at all going to 8v8. If/when we switch to 8v8 you will undoubtedly come back, but within a few weeks you will probably be gone again for one reason or another. That is the sad truth for a lot of people. At this point I think people are so desperate for change(any change) they can't see that the changes they are asking for are not going to fix the underlying problems they have to begin with. The stagnation is real and 8v8 is just a smaller helping of the already stale bread we have in 12v12. I'm actually hopeful Solaris will bring some freshness to the game, but we will have to see.

#368 Imperius

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM

View PostWarHippy, on 13 March 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

I agree, but that has little to do with 8v8 or 12v12. PGI themselves did a lot to hurt group dynamics in this game a long time ago with the shenanigans they pulled with limiting groups to 4 etc.. Although, I have seen more people of late listening to drop callers in the rare case anyone bothers to call anything beyond "go to this box and fight/die". I just don't see how going to 8v8 is supposed to help that.
I understand that, but 8v8 isn't going to change that for you. The core problems and the sameness of the game play isn't going to change much if at all going to 8v8. If/when we switch to 8v8 you will undoubtedly come back, but within a few weeks you will probably be gone again for one reason or another. That is the sad truth for a lot of people. At this point I think people are so desperate for change(any change) they can't see that the changes they are asking for are not going to fix the underlying problems they have to begin with. The stagnation is real and 8v8 is just a smaller helping of the already stale bread we have in 12v12. I'm actually hopeful Solaris will bring some freshness to the game, but we will have to see.


8v8 helps because the individual has a greater impact

Edited by Imperius, 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM.


#369 SFC174

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:05 PM

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

8v8 helps because the individual has a greater impact


And until PSR, Tiers and MM are fixed, greater impact is a bad thing. Sorry, but it is. It's been beaten to death, but as long as a top competitive player and someone in the 70% percentile are considered equal to the MM because they're both Tier1, you want more players in the match to dilute the impact of the very good and the very bad.

Mediocrity may not be ideal, but with our current MM setup, it may be the best we can hope for.

I could care less if we go 4v4, 8v8, 12v10, whatever as long as we do a good job of matching the teams. Won't eliminate stomps, but at least people will feel like they have a shot at contributing at their current skill level and that they aren't being dragged down by a useless potato. I don't care for FW drops, but I've actually enjoyed some scouting match group drops against other well matched teams. Win or lose at least the match was fun and people pulled their weight.

But......if we go 8v8 with the current matchmaking system, I really don't hold out much hope for the game.

#370 JohnnyWayne

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:10 PM

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 02:18 PM, said:

Yet the constant in this community is not to listen to any drop callers and most of us have had our units quit playing already because lets punish group play. You know the only thing that gives a game longevity. Playing the game with friends.

Honestly I don't feel like having two jobs and that is what playing this game feels like for me.


I have to say there is also the opposing trend of dropcallers not adapting to situations. Just like I experienced yesterday....

Why do you keep discussing with War Hippy? He won't change his opinion. He has it and he tries to prove his point without rethinking it. He rather picks on every post you do line by line as he has no real arguments for himself up his sleeves anymore.

Edited by JohnnyWayne, 13 March 2018 - 03:11 PM.


#371 Mystere

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:35 PM

View PostSolahma, on 13 March 2018 - 10:31 AM, said:

PGI stated long ago that 24 players was "pushing it" and that adding more than two spectators was also an issue because of Engine PGI limitations. Same technical reasons why we don't have a rear-facing camera iirc.


FTFY. Place the blame where it rightly belongs.

Edited by Mystere, 13 March 2018 - 03:35 PM.


#372 Imperius

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:49 PM

View PostSFC174, on 13 March 2018 - 03:05 PM, said:


And until PSR, Tiers and MM are fixed, greater impact is a bad thing. Sorry, but it is. It's been beaten to death, but as long as a top competitive player and someone in the 70% percentile are considered equal to the MM because they're both Tier1, you want more players in the match to dilute the impact of the very good and the very bad.

Mediocrity may not be ideal, but with our current MM setup, it may be the best we can hope for.

I could care less if we go 4v4, 8v8, 12v10, whatever as long as we do a good job of matching the teams. Won't eliminate stomps, but at least people will feel like they have a shot at contributing at their current skill level and that they aren't being dragged down by a useless potato. I don't care for FW drops, but I've actually enjoyed some scouting match group drops against other well matched teams. Win or lose at least the match was fun and people pulled their weight.

But......if we go 8v8 with the current matchmaking system, I really don't hold out much hope for the game.

12 v 12 does not make you feel like you contributed makes you feel like you participated.

8 v 8 will give the matchmaker more room to make higher quality matches. No it will not fix match maker, but we never claimed it would.

Again this is about increasing the quality of life of matches in MWO. 8v8 will not be the golden fix, but it takes strain off many of the issues currently ignored like match maker, performance, map congestion, ability to exercise tactics with less eyes on the field, and others listed.

No it doesn’t not fix them, there also not what is in discussion. It helps them but does not hurt them that has been the point of many in this thread.


#373 Imperius

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:54 PM

View PostJohnnyWayne, on 13 March 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:


I have to say there is also the opposing trend of dropcallers not adapting to situations. Just like I experienced yesterday....

Why do you keep discussing with War Hippy? He won't change his opinion. He has it and he tries to prove his point without rethinking it. He rather picks on every post you do line by line as he has no real arguments for himself up his sleeves anymore.

Free bumps? Honestly who mind do we ever change on the forums? We bicker back and fourth and ultimately it still comes up to pgi’s decision.

No one ever stopped my crusade on the MK II.

I guess I see it as if someone posts their argument against you and you don’t counter it. Then who ever is observing could misread that as they produced a valid point.

#374 Appogee

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 03:55 PM

PGI would have to re-do the front end flash matchmaking screens to accommodate 8v8.

That would require programming effort. So you could have known it wouldn't happen for that reason alone.

However, given PGI spent two years embiggenning most maps to accommodate 12v12 matches, so it would have been quite ironic to go back to then go back to 8v8.

I prefer 12v12 anyway.

#375 SFC174

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:05 PM

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 03:49 PM, said:

12 v 12 does not make you feel like you contributed makes you feel like you participated.

8 v 8 will give the matchmaker more room to make higher quality matches. No it will not fix match maker, but we never claimed it would.

Again this is about increasing the quality of life of matches in MWO. 8v8 will not be the golden fix, but it takes strain off many of the issues currently ignored like match maker, performance, map congestion, ability to exercise tactics with less eyes on the field, and others listed.

No it doesn’t not fix them, there also not what is in discussion. It helps them but does not hurt them that has been the point of many in this thread.


No. You're missing the point. The matchmaker doesn't suck because it has to bring in some Tier 2 or 3 players every now and then into a Tier 1 match. A pure Tier 1 match is still a clusterf*** way too often because the skill range in Tier 1 is far too wide. I'm around a 90% percentile player. I feel pretty "average" compared to the pug teams I drop in. Guys like Proton or Hammer Coleman are far above me. And there are many Tier 1 players that are far below me. But the matchmaker doesn't have any problem putting Proton and Hammer on one team and then placing me on the other team with several 70% players (where I am one of the top 2 or 3 on my team!). That's considered a valid matchup by the criteria the MM has to work with.

Going to 8v8 means that those lopsided, Tier 1 only, matches will be even worse because the positive impact of a Proton, or the negative impact of a 70% Tier 1 player, will be magnified. I have a pretty good handle on who the top players in the game are. I can recognize by name 100-200 players that I know are game changers. Many players can do the same. It's hard enough to beat those top players in a 12v12 matchup. Put two of them against a bunch of nobodies (like me) in 8v8 and I wouldn't be surprised if people start disconnecting out of matches.

Again, 8v8 will do nothing to help these sorts of matches because they're already all Tier 1. It will simply magnify the impact of the very good or very bad player. This is a bad thingtm

#376 Imperius

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:07 PM

View PostWarHippy, on 13 March 2018 - 02:32 PM, said:

I agree, but that has little to do with 8v8 or 12v12. PGI themselves did a lot to hurt group dynamics in this game a long time ago with the shenanigans they pulled with limiting groups to 4 etc.. Although, I have seen more people of late listening to drop callers in the rare case anyone bothers to call anything beyond "go to this box and fight/die". I just don't see how going to 8v8 is supposed to help that.
I understand that, but 8v8 isn't going to change that for you. The core problems and the sameness of the game play isn't going to change much if at all going to 8v8. If/when we switch to 8v8 you will undoubtedly come back, but within a few weeks you will probably be gone again for one reason or another. That is the sad truth for a lot of people. At this point I think people are so desperate for change(any change) they can't see that the changes they are asking for are not going to fix the underlying problems they have to begin with. The stagnation is real and 8v8 is just a smaller helping of the already stale bread we have in 12v12. I'm actually hopeful Solaris will bring some freshness to the game, but we will have to see.

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

8v8 helps because the individual has a greater impact

To better explain
https://postimg.org/gallery/ukq36gds/

Edited by Imperius, 13 March 2018 - 04:08 PM.


#377 Imperius

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Posted 13 March 2018 - 04:12 PM

View PostSFC174, on 13 March 2018 - 04:05 PM, said:


No. You're missing the point. The matchmaker doesn't suck because it has to bring in some Tier 2 or 3 players every now and then into a Tier 1 match. A pure Tier 1 match is still a clusterf*** way too often because the skill range in Tier 1 is far too wide. I'm around a 90% percentile player. I feel pretty "average" compared to the pug teams I drop in. Guys like Proton or Hammer Coleman are far above me. And there are many Tier 1 players that are far below me. But the matchmaker doesn't have any problem putting Proton and Hammer on one team and then placing me on the other team with several 70% players (where I am one of the top 2 or 3 on my team!). That's considered a valid matchup by the criteria the MM has to work with.

Going to 8v8 means that those lopsided, Tier 1 only, matches will be even worse because the positive impact of a Proton, or the negative impact of a 70% Tier 1 player, will be magnified. I have a pretty good handle on who the top players in the game are. I can recognize by name 100-200 players that I know are game changers. Many players can do the same. It's hard enough to beat those top players in a 12v12 matchup. Put two of them against a bunch of nobodies (like me) in 8v8 and I wouldn't be surprised if people start disconnecting out of matches.

Again, 8v8 will do nothing to help these sorts of matches because they're already all Tier 1. It will simply magnify the impact of the very good or very bad player. This is a bad thingtm

Maybe you'll just end up in a match without those two because you weren't needed to "fill spots"

Again quit dismissing what is being said by many. None of us said it will fix any of these systems you keep bringing up. We said it would help remove strain on them.

I'm getting tired of your strawmans.

Edited by Imperius, 13 March 2018 - 04:12 PM.


#378 WarHippy

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 07:52 AM

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

8v8 helps because the individual has a greater impact
This is where our views diverge. I don't want the individual to have greater impact as this is supposed to be a team game. The individual can have great impact even in 12v12, but they are generally not the only deciding factor. I really want PGI to emphasize on the group dynamic rather than the individual. We both know the damage that has been done to groups over the years and it just feels like people want to throw up their hands and give up by focusing more on the individual.

View PostJohnnyWayne, on 13 March 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

Why do you keep discussing with War Hippy? He won't change his opinion. He has it and he tries to prove his point without rethinking it. He rather picks on every post you do line by line as he has no real arguments for himself up his sleeves anymore.
Does anyone change their opinion on anything around here, or for that matter rethink their lack of real arguments? You seem to be projecting.

View PostImperius, on 13 March 2018 - 03:54 PM, said:

Free bumps? Honestly who mind do we ever change on the forums? We bicker back and fourth and ultimately it still comes up to pgi’s decision.

No one ever stopped my crusade on the MK II.

I guess I see it as if someone posts their argument against you and you don’t counter it. Then who ever is observing could misread that as they produced a valid point.
Well said. I may rub you the wrong way, but I just want the discussion to be had. Just because something sounds good on paper doesn't mean it actually is good. Things need to be discussed. Different opinions provide different perspectives that can help iron out potential pitfalls that otherwise would not have been noticed until it was too late.

Side note: I don't think anyone ever wanted to stop your crusade for the MKII they just didn't care for your way of crusading for it. It certainly rubbed a lot of people the wrong way to the point some didn't want the MKII just to spite you.

#379 Splatshot

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:45 AM

How many people that are calling for 8v8 played it before? When it was active in MWO.

The maps were way smaller....they will have to change all that otherwise you might never find the other team.

With them spending soo much money and resources on the maps like they said, i wonder if this even can happen.

Edited by Splatshot, 14 March 2018 - 09:46 AM.


#380 WarHippy

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Posted 14 March 2018 - 09:51 AM

View PostSplatshot, on 14 March 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

How many people that are calling for 8v8 played it before? When it was active in MWO.

The maps were way smaller....they will have to change all that otherwise you might never find the other team.

With them spending soo much money and resources on the maps like they said, i wonder if this even can happen.

8v8 of the past really isn't a good argument for either side of the debate because as you said the game was so different back then. Ultimately it will probably be implemented even though I personally think it will accomplish nothing, but it is what it is. My only goal with fighting it is to lower expectations as much as possible so that when it comes and fixes nothing people are not too upset.





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