478 replies to this topic

[Grus]

I've said it once I'll say it again. Volume does not dictate mass.

[Nightbird]

Grus, on 25 February 2019 - 03:31 PM, said:

I've said it once I'll say it again. Volume does not dictate mass.

If you're comparing rocks to feathers maybe, but if it's standard armor/structure on one mech to standard armor/structure on another, your statement is false.

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 25 February 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

If you're comparing rocks to feathers maybe, but if it's standard armor/structure on one mech to standard armor/structure on another, your statement is false.

Lore armors in Battletech.

http://www.sarna.net.../Category:Armor

And with your line of thinking, my mech should get skinnier if I put less armor on it...

[Prototelis]

Science != Battletech

Personally, I wouldn't want to play lights if they were that close in size to assaults. Locust would get wrecked pretty quickly.

They should just say mechs are scaled this way because magic. Battle tech isn't hard scifi

Edited by Prototelis, 25 February 2019 - 03:59 PM.

[Nightbird]

Grus, on 25 February 2019 - 03:51 PM, said:

Lore armors in Battletech.

http://www.sarna.net.../Category:Armor

And with your line of thinking, my mech should get skinnier if I put less armor on it...

I think we all accept that PGI is unable to model different armor thickness as painting them becomes impossible. Technically, yes, and also lighter and bulkier armor should make mechs look a little fatter, but that's not at issue in MWO. The question is why does the Atlas have half the density as the Commando, given both have stock standard structure/armor.

Edited by Nightbird, 25 February 2019 - 04:01 PM.

[Nightbird]

Prototelis, on 25 February 2019 - 03:58 PM, said:

Science != Battletech

Personally, I wouldn't want to play lights if they were that close in size to assaults. Locust would get wrecked pretty quickly.

They should just say mechs are scaled this way because magic. Battle tech isn't hard scifi

Battletech is actually the hardest sci-fi franchise out there... Star Wars has the mystical force, Star Trek has the Q Continuum and other powerful beings/demi-gods/gods, Stargate SG-1 has the Ancients... BT's only appeal to me is that there isn't Deus Ex Machina.

[Prototelis]

BT isn't necessarily soft sci-fi, but that doesn't mean it's hard sci-fi.

The "force" in BT is in the materials/construction and the way it handles FTL travel and communication.

(I don't mean that as a direct comparison to the force in starwars, only in that BT has its own BS magic elements.)

Edited by Prototelis, 25 February 2019 - 04:30 PM.

[Bombast]

Nightbird, on 25 February 2019 - 04:16 PM, said:

Stargate SG-1 has the Ancients...

Oi, you question Stargate's hardness? Them's fighting words!

[Nightbird]

Prototelis, on 25 February 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

BT isn't necessarily soft sci-fi, but that doesn't mean it's hard sci-fi.

The "force" in BT is in the materials/construction and the way it handles FTL travel and communication.

(I don't mean that as a direct comparison to the force in starwars, only in that BT has its own BS magic elements.)

not disagreeing with you at all, but the two techs you specified is the absolute minimum for a space-faring story. I thought the Expanse was going to limit itself to stories within the solar system but then it went all gatey,

[Angel of Annihilation]

Nightbird, on 25 February 2019 - 03:35 PM, said:

If you're comparing rocks to feathers maybe, but if it's standard armor/structure on one mech to standard armor/structure on another, your statement is false.

This isn't not necessarily true. Even if both mechs used the exact same armor and structure types there are a lot of design parameters that could change the overall volume. For example, one mech might be designed with more room between the armor and the components to allow ease of access for maintenance. Another example could be something like how the Marauder is designed with sloping angles that could potential give it more armor protection for less weight, kind of like how sloped armor works in real life. There are literally tons of design characteristics that could change the volume of a mech without changing the weight.

Prototelis, on 25 February 2019 - 03:58 PM, said:

Science != Battletech

Personally, I wouldn't want to play lights if they were that close in size to assaults. Locust would get wrecked pretty quickly.

They should just say mechs are scaled this way because magic. Battle tech isn't hard scifi

Your not taking into account real life things like usage and such. I mean a Bradly is about the same size from a volume perspective as an M1 Abrams despite something like 30 tons in weight difference but even though it can kill MBTs, it has a different job.

A mech like the Locust is straight up a recon vehicle, it isn't supposed to engage the enemy in prolonged combat like we see them do in MWO, instead it is supposed to find the enemy, report back to the main force where they are and in what strength, then run the hell away the second it gets engaged. It might also be used in lightning raids and such but again, that is usually going to be against light targets like supply dumps, infantry, enemy HQs and maybe even light armor, not against Assault class mechs. Honestly the medium mech was the smallest general purpose combat mech on the battlefield, mostly because they were cheap to mass produce and maintain, while the Heavy and Assault mechs were more like the shock troops. I think a good comparison is achieved by using German WWII tanks.

Light Mech = Puma Armored Car (cheap, fast and lightly armored, not meant to fight tanks)
Medium Mech = Panzer III and Panzer IV (Cheap, easy to mass produce and maintain, cold generally get the job done)
Heavy Mech = Panther (Expensive, hard to produce and maintain, strong protection, one of best tanks in the war)
Assault Mech = Tiger/King Tiger (Very expensive, produced in very small numbers, extremely heavy armor and powerful guns)

[Prototelis]

Nightbird, on 25 February 2019 - 04:41 PM, said:

not disagreeing with you at all, but the two techs you specified is the absolute minimum for a space-faring story. I thought the Expanse was going to limit itself to stories within the solar system but then it went all gatey,

Ah, all good my dude.

My favorite bit of magic is radiators in space.

[Nightbird]

Angel of Annihilation, on 25 February 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

Light Mech = Puma Armored Car (cheap, fast and lightly armored, not meant to fight tanks)
Medium Mech = Panzer III and Panzer IV (Cheap, easy to mass produce and maintain, cold generally get the job done)
Heavy Mech = Panther (Expensive, hard to produce and maintain, strong protection, one of best tanks in the war)
Assault Mech = Tiger/King Tiger (Very expensive, produced in very small numbers, extremely heavy armor and powerful guns)

So you're saying it would make sense if heavier mechs are more dense than lighter mechs? I agree but PGI disagrees.

Prototelis, on 25 February 2019 - 04:44 PM, said:

My favorite bit of magic is radiators in space.

Radiators do work in space, the international space station uses them, but PGI screwed up in that vacuum should be much hotter (read lower dissipation) than in atmosphere. (cough HPG Manifold cough)

Edited by Nightbird, 25 February 2019 - 04:48 PM.

[Prototelis]

Angel of Annihilation, on 25 February 2019 - 04:43 PM, said:

A mech like the Locust is straight up a recon vehicle, it isn't supposed to engage the enemy in prolonged combat like we see them do in MWO, instead it is supposed to find the enemy, report back to the main force where they are and in what strength, then run the hell away the second it gets engaged.

No one is going to play that in a video game. This is a video game.

[Grus]

Abrams tank. 67 tons. Bradly fighting veh 26 tons. The difference in size isnt that much.

Edited by Grus, 25 February 2019 - 04:52 PM.

[Prototelis]

Nightbird, on 25 February 2019 - 04:48 PM, said:

Radiators do work in space, the international space station uses them, but PGI screwed up in that vacuum should be much hotter (read lower dissipation) than in atmosphere. (cough HPG Manifold cough)

Yes, they do, but in operation battlemechs would still heat soak themselves pretty quickly without the magic materials heatsinks use to conduct heat.

[Nightbird]

Grus, on 25 February 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

Abrams tank. 67 tons. Bradly fighting veh 26 tons. The difference in size isnt that much.

Pick 2 vehicles with the same armor type, as with the commando and atlas.

[zudukai]

Grus, on 25 February 2019 - 04:52 PM, said:

Abrams tank. 67 tons. Bradly fighting veh 26 tons. The difference in size isnt that much.

that argument is invalid because the bradley needs physical space to carry 6 men with 3 crew and the abrams only needs a crew of 4.

more constructively, it would me more like an armored car like the AMX-10rc or the like.

Spoiler

Edited by zudukai, 25 February 2019 - 07:56 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I think it's fine to have some density decrease as tonnage go up to make the the different tonnages look different enough, if there was no density decrease at all a lot of people would probably think a commando standing 60-70% as tall as an atlas wouldn't look different enough to satisfy the image of a light vs assault.

The problem is more that there is absolutely no consistency in the scaling and density and things are just all over the place.

If it was actual consistent volumetric scaling with a linear decrease in density, let's say a 100 tonner has 80% the density of a 20 tonner with a linear decrease in between, that would probably look pretty good. It might also make some theoretical sense as with a higher tonnage mech a little less density might help with weight distribution and other issues, same way large animals are often less dense than small animals.

It also bugs me a little that PGI lied to our face about the rescale pass. They said it would be volumetric and consistent, and it just isn't. Being lied to is never nice, and it was a missed opportunity to actually implement a consistent scaling in the game.

We're almost certainly not gonna get another overhaul of scale though.

[Shanrak]

[Koniving]

Prototelis, on 25 February 2019 - 04:49 PM, said:

No one is going to play that in a video game. This is a video game.

Would say battlefield...but people are dumb enough to take on tanks in apcs as opposed to getting support first.

Arma 1-3 comes to mind. MW:LL does as well. When faced with an overwhelming enemy even a single one, you get out of there and teenage with allies rather than face it alone...if you personally face it at all. (But on the other end, not every light is a scout. Raven 4X, a certain Jenner (think its the K, whichever one stocks with the most armor and only 4 ML), Panther...these are fighting mechs. This is like in comparison to a Locust, a Flea (those with more than just a single ton of armor) is built to fight. Locusts not so much.

Problem is this game is woefully incomplete when compared with where the things come from.

Edited by Koniving, 25 February 2019 - 08:49 PM.