478 replies to this topic

[Nightbird]

Great, we're on the same page.

The volume of the mech = the volume of 53 slots (fixed regardless of mech weight class) + volume of armor and structure (scales based on tonnage, 2x the tonnage, 2x the armor & structure)

Are we still agreed?

Edited by Nightbird, 13 March 2018 - 05:02 PM.

[Grus]

Nightbird, on 13 March 2018 - 04:54 PM, said:

Great, we're on the same page.

The volume of the mech = the volume of 53 slots (fixed regardless of mech weight class) + volume of armor and structure (scales based on tonnage, 2x the tonnage, 2x the armor & structure)

Are we still agreed?

Not quite, i see what you're getting at and you have a point but the best way for me to try to explain is this.

yes i can put a v12 in a pinto.. but the changes ill need to make... it wont be a pinto anymore..

those crit slots dont relate to the "size" of the mech. they are hardpoints. so think of it like wing stores on a aircraft. some can carry more "stuff" on 1 pylon than another aircraft on 1 pylon. so a light mech with say 10 crits slots "could" carry a very large cannon or a 10 med laz in that one slot. But the max weight class of the skeleton can only hold so much weight.

can a paper lunch bag hold all your lunch stuff sure. But is it strong enough to hold a cannonball? following?

[Nightbird]

Could you give an example of any piece equipment on an assault mech that cannot be installed in a light mech in the same number of crits? If tonnage is an issue, a medium mech works as well.

(Just using this as my argument for the crits are exactly the same size)

[Tarl Cabot]

Fasa used at start up same amount of crit space across all mechs, a one size fits all. Eventually making changes/lore weigh crit slots/tonnage being the primary restrictions, The original Battledroids did not even have to use up crit for the now free external engine heatsinks for mechs w/engines under 250 rating. All engines had 10 HS included in the engine/CT.That was one change that was updated later. Battledroids actually provided 3 different playing levels.

As for armor, heavier mechs had to ability to equip more armor, 2x of its internal structure. The thickness of the armor over a specific surface area could be considered how that was handled. There is lore where was not such a great differences in mech sizes (height, etc) TT used dice for hit/.miss then on hits for location for each weapon, not each weapon group. Then there is gameplay. MWO does have absolute minimum size, with locust at or below the cusp of that. But as PGI increases mech size in a game where it is FLPPD, group fire, everything hitting the same spot in the crosshairs for majority of the weapons, this is where Absolute max size should have been taken into consideration. Assaults are larger than they need to be and that flows downhill to the locust being at the absolute min size. Any smaller, most players would need to equip secondary SSRM to handle lights. I know in beta many of my assaults did have SSRM for that but then it also zeroed in on the CT.

Edited by Tarl Cabot, 13 March 2018 - 08:25 PM.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

we have nothing Facts to each part of the Equipment ..ok mechs have 3 Layers of Armor ..each layer 10mm??? 20 mm ??...the Evolution from BT is going from abstract TT rules for a pure Strategical Game to a FPS with Harry Potter Magical Mechs with more space in as real can have. have the AC20 from the Hunchbach the same Size of the AC20 from a Atlas

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 13 March 2018 - 09:05 PM.

[Nightbird]

The same density volumetric scaling I used implictly increased the size of the crit slots by 4x between the Commando and Atlas. We agreed that armor and structure of the same type has the same density. All the non-armor/structure tonnage goes into slots.

In order to makes heavier mechs bigger, I scaled the slots up even though we know the equipment size doesn't change.

Where can PGI's interpretation be the correct scaling?

[evilauthor]

Just my headcanon, but I think slots don't represent VOLUME. They represent connection points and ports that weapons and equipment (and advanced armor) use to connect to the skeleton. Not just the mounting points either, but also things like power feeds, coolant ports, etc etc. Thus heavier ballistic weapons take up more crits than equivalent energy weapons because in addition to power feeds, they also include ammo feeds, recoil absorbtion equipment, and so on.

Endosteel under this model simply has fewer connection points than standard structure.

Armor in Battletech has always been reliant on structure to perform as good as it does; ground vehicles and fighters that don't back their armor with internal structure are more vulnerable to crits. This explains the 2X Internal Structure limit for armor; carrying more armor provides no additional protection because it'll fall right off. And of course, most advanced armors need more connection points to internal structure.

[mogs01gt]

Great post. Lots of scaling is off in MWO. Between the structures on maps and incorrect scaling of Mechs, PGI could have made a great game if they removed their heads out of their asses.

[Nightbird]

If equipment takes the same # of slots on an assault as on a light, is there any reason for there to be more available interior space per crit on an assault? (Following your head canon approach, where crits are only attachment points)

[MW Waldorf Statler]

slotsystem very compicated ...why have a Shoulder mounted AC10 the same slots in the Torsoside like a inbuild AC10 ?im find the MW4 Slotsystem better ...smlall slots, Medium and Hevy Slots ...no Ac20 in MG Slots thats never build for...here the iS Mechs more Omni as each Clanmech

[evilauthor]

Nightbird, on 14 March 2018 - 07:41 AM, said:

If equipment takes the same # of slots on an assault as on a light, is there any reason for there to be more available interior space per crit on an assault? (Following your head canon approach, where crits are only attachment points)

Yes. Because Assaults are HEAVIER. They have more tonnage, so they have the mass to balloon in size to contain whatever they need to contain.

But as the thread OP notes, they shouldn't balloon in size as much as MWO makes them.

Also, as near as I can tell, Assaults don't automatically come with lots of empty volume (unless they're Omnimechs of course). They come with a skeleton rated to carry a certain amount of tonnage. Equipment is hung on that skeleton and then armor is wrapped around all that as snug as possible. Assaults have more volume than lights because they're carrying more stuff internally even if in the case of something like the Charger, that "extra stuff" is just armor.

Also, the proportions of a mech seem to be based in part on how fast they are. Fast mechs look have long, thin legs. Slow mechs have stumpier looking legs in comparison. It's not just Assaults; a lore Urbanmech is supposed to be really slow and sure looks like a slow assault even though it's only 30 tons.

I've always suspected that making a mech faster than a few percentage points would "in real life" involve more than just swapping in a larger engine. You'd need to redesign the legs too at least to handle the faster pace.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Gigantism going further

HBS BT game



when the tanks has a Lenght from 8m ...which size have a Atlas in this game ????

[mogs01gt]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 14 March 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

Gigantism going further

HBS BT game



when the tanks has a Lenght from 8m ...which size have a Atlas in this game ????

Battletech is using the mech "textures" from MWO.

Edited by mogs01gt, 14 March 2018 - 08:04 AM.

[evilauthor]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 14 March 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

slotsystem very compicated ...why have a Shoulder mounted AC10 the same slots in the Torsoside like a inbuild AC10 ?im find the MW4 Slotsystem better ...smlall slots, Medium and Hevy Slots ...no Ac20 in MG Slots thats never build for...here the iS Mechs more Omni as each Clanmech

MWO uses the same critical slot system as TT Battletech. It just adds a "hard point" system on top of it which limits the number and types of weapons a mech can carry.

And you can put a heavy AC where a Machine Gun goes in MWO. I've seen Warhammers carry dual Gauss Rifles and AC/20s in their torsos (just not at the same time), and read about one guy suggesting carrying a Light Gauss on a stealth armored Phoenix Hawk to play sniper.

Edit:

Old MW4 Ranger, on 14 March 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

Gigantism going further

HBS BT game



when the tanks has a Lenght from 8m ...which size have a Atlas in this game ????

You'll also notice that the 55 ton Shadow Hawks on the left are nearly as tall as the 100 ton Atlas standing in line with them.

Edited by evilauthor, 14 March 2018 - 08:08 AM.

[Appogee]

I don't recall anyone ever specifically requesting volumetric scaling.

Is volumetric scaling the only kind of scaling that could/should apply to Mechs?

Edited by Appogee, 14 March 2018 - 08:13 AM.

[Nightbird]

Appogee, on 14 March 2018 - 08:12 AM, said:

I don't recall anyone ever specifically requesting volumetric scaling.

Is volumetric scaling the only kind of scaling that could/should apply to Mechs?

The only point to this thread is to show mechs are not scaled volumetrically. Some players stronly believe mechs are scaled volumetrically, perhaps because PGI said they scaled mechs volumetrically. They did not.

[MW Waldorf Statler]

Appogee, on 14 March 2018 - 08:12 AM, said:

I don't recall anyone ever specifically requesting volumetric scaling.

Is volumetric scaling the only kind of scaling that could/should apply to Mechs?

655/5000
A machine that was designed purely artistically visually according to ethical criteria, you can even scale only on the external appearance in relation to their environment ... because everything else is just values without any real weight, space or size reference ... Reference points would then zb The weapons that are used in other vehicles to scale up 'Mechs then that the weapons size match or in relation to cockpit and pilot ... or you would have to specially design the weapons and the mech skeleton as a 3D model with ammunition and loading mechanisms and then in tanks and mechs and then visually construct the 'Mech.

evilauthor, on 14 March 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

MWO uses the same critical slot system as TT Battletech. It just adds a "hard point" system on top of it which limits the number and types of weapons a mech can carry.

And you can put a heavy AC where a Machine Gun goes in MWO. I've seen Warhammers carry dual Gauss Rifles and AC/20s in their torsos (just not at the same time), and read about one guy suggesting carrying a Light Gauss on a stealth armored Phoenix Hawk to play sniper.

Edit:


You'll also notice that the 55 ton Shadow Hawks on the left are nearly as tall as the 100 ton Atlas standing in line with them.

Yes... in Original TT this was only Construction Rule for own builds ,and many Blocked each own Constructions in Boardgames and never the Authos thinking to a later Computergame by this rules
..thats come to the courious Situation thats you can put many Wepons by MW3 in the Legs

yes Shadowhawk from the old Loresize of 9,63m now up to 18 m and the Tanks with the same weapons like the mechs (and Ammunitoion) now little Dwarfs.

Edited by Old MW4 Ranger, 14 March 2018 - 08:53 AM.

[C E Dwyer]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 14 March 2018 - 08:00 AM, said:

Gigantism going further

HBS BT game



when the tanks has a Lenght from 8m ...which size have a Atlas in this game ????

Artists will be artists.

The tanks both in the picture and the game are clearly to small, I don't think anyone in any medium has ever managed to do a consistent, and correct size.

[Nightbird]

Not only the size, but also toughness and lethality. These 50-70 ton tanks can barely dish out 5pt of damage and die after receiving 20pts of damage. Completely bogus

[Wildstreak]

Old MW4 Ranger, on 08 March 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

bring the Mechs in the Size to the Old BT Canon

It is too late for scaling Mechs by lore.

1 - Even before MWO was a thought in someone's head, the Mechs have been done is various ways due to 'creative artistic license' for years never sticking 100% to original imagery.
2 - If they redid all MWO models to original lore, a lot of crying would happen.

Prime example, the Catapult. If done by original lore images, no one would ever take a Catapult except for funsies, it would be far less popular than it is now.

Edited by Wildstreak, 15 March 2018 - 06:02 AM.