99 replies to this topic

[frumpylumps]

Brain Cancer, on 12 March 2018 - 02:31 PM, said:

Being "useful" in FP, sometimes and uncompetitive otherwise is about the most damning with faint praise of a weapon I've heard to date in this topic.

Meanwhile, well balanced meta-of-the-month is currently lasering it's way though everything and is quite competitive, period. LRMs aren't even remotely close to that, being a Paul-says-it-should-be-a-T5-noob-tickler.



They're only good at lower tiers because we don't actually strap training wheels (read:AMS, AMS everywhere) on Trials so newbies have a defense someone with zero experience can use. If we did put AMS into the equation, they'd be as useless in low tiers as they are in high.

There is this concept called "situational weapons" These are weapons that aren't good in every scenario, but they still add to the game, and in no way are a negative even though they aren't used as much as others.

Trying to balance all weapons systems to be equally useful on all maps would be some OCD ****.

Edited by frumpylumps, 12 March 2018 - 02:51 PM.

[JRcam4643]

Lightfoot, on 05 March 2018 - 01:50 AM, said:

LRMs are so worthless currently I just consider them to not exist in MWO.

They seem balanced out of fear or concern about what 4xLRM20 on an Assault mech can do and so for the rest of MWO mechs they are pointless to expend payload weight on.

Once upon a time, back in 2014 and before, this was not the case. Back then, if used correctly, LRMs were very good team support and decent defensive weapons.

Perhaps mechs could get better results from LRMs based on lower numbers of missile tubes carried.

Other than that I don't see any fixes for LRMs. However, I don't think balancing LRMs to eliminate OP complaint whines should be the end goal, which is how LRMs are balanced now. (IMHO) No one complains because you would be foolish to use LRMs now.

I still use LRMs to decent effect usually. I have noticed that using them with other missile types is perhaps more effective. I got 1000 damage with one of these builds, forget which one.

[Brain Cancer]

frumpylumps, on 12 March 2018 - 02:39 PM, said:

There is this concept called "situational weapons" These are weapons that aren't good in every scenario, but they still add to the game, and in no way are a negative even though they aren't used as much as others.

Trying to balance all weapons systems to be equally useful on all maps would be some OCD ****.

Ah, but the narrower the niche, the better a weapon should be to take advantage of said niche.

LRMs are not good, and in nearly all situations can be replaced by something else that does the job more efficiently. It's not even a case of "less useful" on some maps. You can drive LRM accuracy down to single digits on maps like Mining or Crimson simply by hanging out on the right part of the map.

A weapon where you're lucky to get one missile in ten on-target depending on the map square is a little too situational, don't you think?

Honestly, a lot of what does make LRMs so situational has reasonably easy fixes. Unlocked missiles should fire flat arcs, allowing them to be used in areas with roofs or fired more effectively into gaps between buildings like poor man's MRMs. Minimum range should never be zero-damage, but damage reduction. Direct fire get-your-own locks should be rewarded more than indirect fire mode, but IDF doesn't need to be nerfed further. And the weapon should be balanced against regular AMS use, rather than potato play with zero protection and minimal cover use or evasion of missiles.

There's more, but that's a good start. Things like eliminating blinding lurmspam by increasing cooldown and damage together to get rid of unfun BANGBANGBANGBANGALLISEEAREBOOM without reducing DPS. Tweaking velocity, normalizing spread, etc.

But I doubt it'll ever change as long as Paul is getting lurmed to death, just as we'll never see collisions because he got chain-rammed into MWO history.

[frumpylumps]

Brain Cancer, on 12 March 2018 - 06:47 PM, said:

Ah, but the narrower the niche, the better a weapon should be to take advantage of said niche.

LRMs are not good, and in nearly all situations can be replaced by something else that does the job more efficiently. It's not even a case of "less useful" on some maps. You can drive LRM accuracy down to single digits on maps like Mining or Crimson simply by hanging out on the right part of the map.

A weapon where you're lucky to get one missile in ten on-target depending on the map square is a little too situational, don't you think?

Honestly, a lot of what does make LRMs so situational has reasonably easy fixes. Unlocked missiles should fire flat arcs, allowing them to be used in areas with roofs or fired more effectively into gaps between buildings like poor man's MRMs. Minimum range should never be zero-damage, but damage reduction. Direct fire get-your-own locks should be rewarded more than indirect fire mode, but IDF doesn't need to be nerfed further. And the weapon should be balanced against regular AMS use, rather than potato play with zero protection and minimal cover use or evasion of missiles.

There's more, but that's a good start. Things like eliminating blinding lurmspam by increasing cooldown and damage together to get rid of unfun BANGBANGBANGBANGALLISEEAREBOOM without reducing DPS. Tweaking velocity, normalizing spread, etc.

But I doubt it'll ever change as long as Paul is getting lurmed to death, just as we'll never see collisions because he got chain-rammed into MWO history.

LRM seem pretty damn good at taking advantage of that niche if you ask me.

Problem is you want to compare apples to oranges. IDF and DF weapons don't need to be comparable because IDF has huge advantages that you seem to be ignoring.

Situational weapons are just that, and just by bringing LRM, you force your opponents to play in a less than optimal way. There is absolutely no reason why LRM need to be buffed, imo.
It is flavor that helps bad players who can't aim feel like they are accomplishing something. It is a very good thing LRM are generally not as useful as other weapons systems in high level play because that would drive skilled players away from the game.

You want a situational EZmode weapon designed for bad players who can't aim to be as equally useful as another that is much more skill demanding, but this can never happen for the good of the game.

I guarantee you that I would not be playing this game if the effects of LRMs can't be diminished like they can in high level play because that low of a skill ceiling would be too unbearable for me.

This is a good post I noticed talking about other advantages of LRM here:

https://mwomercs.com...50#entry6042050

Edited by frumpylumps, 13 March 2018 - 05:01 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

You want a situational EZmode weapon designed for bad players who can't aim to be as equally useful as another that is much more skill demanding, but this can never happen for the good of the game.

No, I want a weapon that isn't statted based on someone who doesn't actually understand gameplay being vulnerable to it. Don't put words in my mouth here.

[frumpylumps]

Brain Cancer, on 13 March 2018 - 08:06 AM, said:

No, I want a weapon that isn't statted based on someone who doesn't actually understand gameplay being vulnerable to it. Don't put words in my mouth here.

If that is the way you feel, why not pick a different weapon system instead of asking that LRMs change when they are working as intended?

I think it is great design really. It prevents bad players from being discouraged and quitting and at the same time does not lower the skill ceiling at high levels of play since it is less effective there.

Edited by frumpylumps, 13 March 2018 - 08:33 AM.

[Brain Cancer]

Because no weapon should be balanced to be even up with trash.

None. Worse, LRMs aren't even balanced against trash, they're balanced against trash unequipped with the most mindless, zero-skill-required missile-destroying gear in the game.

It's like saying an Clan AC/2 is OP against opponents because they set all the armor levels to zero and didn't move while you shot them in the head.

[Lykaon]

frumpylumps, on 12 March 2018 - 01:06 PM, said:

I'm very happy that these EZmode weapons are considered worthless by some people.

If you think EZmode is LRMs then you need to slap together a Laser vomit Hellbringer.

ECM and an 81+ kph ground speed means it's a simple task to get a target in range and unaware.
78 damage alpha means it's also a simple matter to cause severe damage to that target before it can react.
33% heat efficiency means the heat burden is easily controlled for sustainable damage output.
NO PASSIVE COUNTERS. The target needs to actually do something to defend from the attacks.

Or you can try an LRM80 Supernova that will not likely ever land 80 damage in a volley on a target that is warned about being fired upon and can literally do nothing to defend it's self and mitigate damage if there is ECM and AMS present. Add in some active counters and the missile launch warning + radar derper + moving over a smidge = broken lock and missed volley.

Now let's think about "trades" LRM 80 vs 78 point laser alpha. What do you think deals a higher damage ratio?

How about minimum ranges? 0-400 ideal range with 401-800 being a 50% damage (still 39ish damage) for the laser vomit Hellbringer. The LRMs...0-180 min range 181-900m max range with an actual effective performance envelope of about 200-700m or a 500m across "doughnut" of "death? "

Or effective max ranges? The clan ER-Medium laser will dish about 50% of it's damage from 401-800m an LRM launcher is praying for a tickle of damage at 800m on a target that gets a warning 5 seconds before it will be hit while the volley crosses the 800m gap to target being exposed to ECM disruption and AMS with more than enough time for the target to seek cover or break lock with a radar derper.

It's not an EZmode weapon it's an EZmode target. Any target you can burn down with LRMs you would likely do it in a quarter the time with direct fire weapons and frequently from a further distance.

[C E Dwyer]

I never complain about the state of Lurms

I use them on mechs that should have them when I feel like dropping in them

[Lightfoot]

If I were playing Inner Sphere I would take MRMs or SRMs or Rockets, if Clan ATMs or SRMs, but never LRMs. I realize 4xLRM20 work pretty well, but only a handful of mechs can do that. And those mechs leave classic LRM scrappers out like the Mad Dog, Timber Wolf Prime, Zeus, most Awesomes, Trebuchet, etc. unable to scrap in MWO. So LRMs are so bad they can't even support BattleTech lore.

So fix LRMs so they work for average mechs and do something that makes them work not so well if boated. It's not rocket science, it's LRM science.

[frumpylumps]

Lykaon, on 13 March 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

If you think EZmode is LRMs then you need to slap together a Laser vomit Hellbringer.

ECM and an 81+ kph ground speed means it's a simple task to get a target in range and unaware.
78 damage alpha means it's also a simple matter to cause severe damage to that target before it can react.
33% heat efficiency means the heat burden is easily controlled for sustainable damage output.
NO PASSIVE COUNTERS. The target needs to actually do something to defend from the attacks.

Or you can try an LRM80 Supernova that will not likely ever land 80 damage in a volley on a target that is warned about being fired upon and can literally do nothing to defend it's self and mitigate damage if there is ECM and AMS present. Add in some active counters and the missile launch warning + radar derper + moving over a smidge = broken lock and missed volley.

Now let's think about "trades" LRM 80 vs 78 point laser alpha. What do you think deals a higher damage ratio?

How about minimum ranges? 0-400 ideal range with 401-800 being a 50% damage (still 39ish damage) for the laser vomit Hellbringer. The LRMs...0-180 min range 181-900m max range with an actual effective performance envelope of about 200-700m or a 500m across "doughnut" of "death? "

Or effective max ranges? The clan ER-Medium laser will dish about 50% of it's damage from 401-800m an LRM launcher is praying for a tickle of damage at 800m on a target that gets a warning 5 seconds before it will be hit while the volley crosses the 800m gap to target being exposed to ECM disruption and AMS with more than enough time for the target to seek cover or break lock with a radar derper.

It's not an EZmode weapon it's an EZmode target. Any target you can burn down with LRMs you would likely do it in a quarter the time with direct fire weapons and frequently from a further distance.

You are comparing app[lies to oranges. Expecting a direct fire and indirect fire weapon to be comparable doesn't make sense.

With lasers, you actually have to aim and expose yourself to shoot, which makes your positioning all the more important.

LRMS are ezmode as **** in comparson, requring no aiming skills, nor situational awareness or even tactical use of terrain. You can play them with one hand and eat cheetoes in the other as you sit behind your team, throwing missiles at everything out of LOS in total safety. These are designed so that bad players can accomplish something in a game and not feel discouraged. They are like training wheels and they seem to be working just fine as they are.

There is no ******* way LRMs should be able to beat any other weapon system 1v1. That is ridiculous.

Edited by frumpylumps, 13 March 2018 - 12:54 PM.

[Asym]

LRM's have little place in Solaris and that is the reason they have been degraded to ineffective....

ATM's are next and Streaks will follow. Can't have guided weapons in an arena not can we.....

Oh, it will be a "vomit" event and let the great salty tears start now because matches just might not last more than a minute in some weight classes.

Good luck and it's such a shame that so many of us aren't going to be there......

[frumpylumps]

Asym, on 13 March 2018 - 12:51 PM, said:

LRM's have little place in Solaris and that is the reason they have been degraded to ineffective....

ATM's are next and Streaks will follow. Can't have guided weapons in an arena not can we.....

Oh, it will be a "vomit" event and let the great salty tears start now because matches just might not last more than a minute in some weight classes.

Good luck and it's such a shame that so many of us aren't going to be there......

Guided weapons should absolutely be less effective 1v1 than aimed weapons. If they aren't, solaris will be a joke of a game.


Instead of throwing up your hands and giving up, why don't you give up your training wheels crutch instead?

Edited by frumpylumps, 13 March 2018 - 01:00 PM.

[Brain Cancer]

Quote

LRMS are ezmode as **** in comparson, requring no aiming skills, nor situational awareness or even tactical use of terrain. You can play them with one hand and eat cheetoes in the other as you sit behind your team, throwing missiles at everything out of LOS in total safety. These are designed so that bad players can accomplish something in a game and not feel discouraged. They are like training wheels and they seem to be working just fine as they are.

I think LRMs are in a horrid place and...that is a long line of horseapples you just dropped there.

The mountain of dead lurmboats with the cause of death of "sat behind hill, wrecked by enemy while obliviously spamming missiles blind" would be harder to conquer than Mount Everest. Because situational awareness matters. Every time you roll over some tunnel-visioning red-square obsessive potato, you prove that statement wrong. Especially in a world where you become useless the second someone crosses into your minrange deadzone. LRM boats without situational awareness are target practice, same as anyone else.

You certainly have to understand using terrain,as well. Failing to do so is what gets you mindlessly plowing salvos into mountains. Terrain is often your worst enemy, because it's your simplest LRM counter unless you position to bypass it. Hint: Sitting in the back tossing LRMs is not conducive to getting your missiles to avoid terrain.

You can play like that- or with your foot- but all you'll end up hitting are the functionally useless, never mind the dangerous opponents.

[Lightfoot]

What's funny is that LRMs are fire and forget missiles like a Sidewinder and have always been so in previous MechWarrior games. Check with BattleTech and it states they have onboard tracking systems in the first paragraph. The pilot just acquires the target for them and lets them go. Ouch!

My gripe is that LRMs are not good enough to use as a secondary weapon system like you would see on a Mad Cat or Mad Dog or Zeus, etc. Those mechs carry LRMs to soften up targets while still closing, essentially. But in MWO LRMs are too weak to be worth using in this fashion, you are better off just carrying some more heatsinks, so Mechs like the Timber Wolf Prime or Mad Dog Prime are invalid configurations in MWO.

[Yosharian]

Lykaon, on 13 March 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

If you think EZmode is LRMs then you need to slap together a Laser vomit Hellbringer.

ECM and an 81+ kph ground speed means it's a simple task to get a target in range and unaware.
78 damage alpha means it's also a simple matter to cause severe damage to that target before it can react.
33% heat efficiency means the heat burden is easily controlled for sustainable damage output.
NO PASSIVE COUNTERS. The target needs to actually do something to defend from the attacks.

Or you can try an LRM80 Supernova that will not likely ever land 80 damage in a volley on a target that is warned about being fired upon and can literally do nothing to defend it's self and mitigate damage if there is ECM and AMS present. Add in some active counters and the missile launch warning + radar derper + moving over a smidge = broken lock and missed volley.

Now let's think about "trades" LRM 80 vs 78 point laser alpha. What do you think deals a higher damage ratio?

How about minimum ranges? 0-400 ideal range with 401-800 being a 50% damage (still 39ish damage) for the laser vomit Hellbringer. The LRMs...0-180 min range 181-900m max range with an actual effective performance envelope of about 200-700m or a 500m across "doughnut" of "death? "

Or effective max ranges? The clan ER-Medium laser will dish about 50% of it's damage from 401-800m an LRM launcher is praying for a tickle of damage at 800m on a target that gets a warning 5 seconds before it will be hit while the volley crosses the 800m gap to target being exposed to ECM disruption and AMS with more than enough time for the target to seek cover or break lock with a radar derper.

It's not an EZmode weapon it's an EZmode target. Any target you can burn down with LRMs you would likely do it in a quarter the time with direct fire weapons and frequently from a further distance.

/thread

[Damnedtroll]

Seranov, on 05 March 2018 - 05:58 AM, said:

Assaults are the worst LRM boats in the game for a lot of reasons. Try running LRMs in Mediums and you'll have less issues. LRMs aren't supposed to be for doing damage/getting kills, anyway, they're for forcing your enemies into cover where your teammates can blindside them, OR for shooting over the heads of your friends as you push on the enemy. Those two things, and nothing else. They're a backup weapon system at best.

Exactly !

[Yosharian]

> Seranov: Assaults are the worst LRM boats in the game for a lot of reasons. Try running LRMs in Mediums and you'll have less issues. LRMs aren't supposed to be for doing damage/getting kills, anyway, they're for forcing your enemies into cover where your teammates can blindside them, OR for shooting over the heads of your friends as you push on the enemy. Those two things, and nothing else. They're a backup weapon system at best.

Yes but MWO doesn't reward mechs with 'backup weapon systems'. It rewards mechs that have specialised roles, that are damn good at those roles.

Dropping alpha, heat efficiency, DPS, speed, whatever, in order to carry a 'backup weapon system' that, extremely often, will be negated anyway by AMS, ECM, radar deprivation, or just simply blocked by cover, is not good in MWO.

[Imperius]

LRM’s are trash if everyone would stop using them maybe they would fix them.

[Brain Cancer]

Imperius, on 14 March 2018 - 06:41 PM, said:

LRM’s are trash if everyone would stop using them maybe they would fix them.

Nah. People don't use CAC's,, but you don't see Paul changing those very much now do you?

(Of course, I'd cry no tears if the "placeholder" gun for LB-X fixes was never seen again.)