86 replies to this topic

[Snowbluff]

Mystere, on 20 March 2018 - 04:44 PM, said:

They do it so someone like you would start a whine thread on the forums. It looks like it worked beautifully.

Narc Raven! *shakes fists at sky*
Not a whine thread though. This is a good idea that I think people should employ. I feel like if your plan to be in a LRM match you should equip yourself as such.

Brain Cancer, on 20 March 2018 - 04:48 PM, said:

NARCs themselves are incredibly conditional in QP.

I wonder about someone who straps multiple tons of barely-useful equipment that only tend to matter if your team brought significant amounts of LRMs.

I mean, it's great if you're missile boating and there's a light/medium out there podding targets, but unless there's enough missiles on the team, you're almost wasting the tonnage otherwise. That we don't get ammo switching means the explosive (damage rather than NARCing target) option is off the table for the launcher.

Hm, this actually gives me an idea. I don't have an arctic wolf. I could be my own NARCer with it, I imagine. The 9 missile one is even on sale. Anyone have any builds for some Arctic Wolves with this in mind?

[Simbacca]

Mystere, on 20 March 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

Frankly, everyone should bring AMS if their Mech supports it. Why burden only the LRM player? <shrugs>

Almost all my InnerSphere mechs run AMS, or dual AMS if they can mount it.

My Anansi only carries one AMS - due to tonnage limitations. My Spider-5D, Raven-3L, and Cicada-3M do not mount AMS due to tonnage.

As for my Clan mechs, only some run it if the Omni-Pod permits mounting of AMS.

[Kroete]

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

Well, as I said, I was NARCed, which is synonymous with ****** on that map.

Ams can kill narc beacons.
Maybe you should take some and dont tell others what they have to do?

[Nema Nabojiv]

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 03:41 PM, said:

I'm considering dropping the ERSL on the Madcat MkII-B I was trying to level for a laser AMS or AMS. I have the excess heat available. Leveling during an event is pretty rough though.

Having lasers on madcat B kinda explains why you have troubles with lrms. Just what were you going to kill with it, infantry?

[roekenny]

FupDup, on 20 March 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

Just to clarify, not all people who vote for Polar are Lurmers. Some of us are ERLL and ERPPC pokers.

Yes but your actually people and can be somewhat reasoned with and are big boys what can look after yourself (mostly) I can't say the same for them.

[Krivvan]

MischiefSC, on 20 March 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

you'll gimp the hell out of MRMs and SRMs

MRMs are most optimally used at point blank range. SRMs should also be used as close as possible. Far too close for AMS to matter.

[ThreeStooges]

A proper lrm boat is always within 300m or closer to the team and never farther than 200m from the closest ally. if that lrm mech is being close enough to provide ams cover what are you doing next to it? Bring your own ams just like a smart lrm user brings their own cap/bap/uav/tag.

[Jack Booted Thug]

Stridercal, on 20 March 2018 - 12:55 PM, said:

If people can't figure this out, block them and you won't have to worry about it again.

Blocking just prevents seeing their chat messages and possibly VOIP. Won't keep them from ending up in the same match or same team.

[Snowbluff]

Kroete, on 20 March 2018 - 06:01 PM, said:

Ams can kill narc beacons.
Maybe you should take some and dont tell others what they have to do?

Well, firstly I've considered bringing my own, and two, LRMers are EXPECTING AND FACILITATING they will be in this situation by voting for LRM friendly maps. If you're planning on your opposition being other LRM boats due to how you're voting, you should plan accordingly.

Nema Nabojiv, on 20 March 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

Having lasers on madcat B kinda explains why you have troubles with lrms. Just what were you going to kill with it, infantry?

I have like... 1500 damage worth of UAC10 and UAC5 ammunition in it at the moment anyway, and this is before magazine extensions. It's 10 more damage if I'm getting face hugged by a sunspider. It's nice when all of my guns are jammed by all of the dakka. :3

[MischiefSC]

While I wouldn't do it in a coordinated group NARC can have some real value in QP. Regardless of LRMs it dramatically increases your teams situational awareness and can force the other team to pull people back. It's a better 'suppression' weapon than LRMs by far.

I would rather have someone with NARC on my team than LRMs. He's likely to be more decisive in who actually wins rather than padding his stats at the expense of the teams success.

[PocketYoda]

Bring AMS anyway don't bring LRMs you geriatrics..

[Vellron2005]

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

Listen, if we're going to be a on Polar to support your playstyle, and we have no hard cover and are assailed by NARCs and UAVs, at least make up for it by being a personal Iron Dome and helping your team with the match up you are built for and are forcing your team into.

AMS goes on LRM boat.

While I commend this sentiment, here's why it would not be viable for me:

Simple.. especially on polar, I usually play a LRM boat, and rarely get LRMed myself. Why? Because when you play a LRM boat on an open map, you have to do 2 things:

1) Stay in indirect fire - if you get seen, you will get killed fairly quickly.

2) Stay at long range - because if you close in, yes, you will share armor and your missiles will have shorter flight time, but, alas you will get LRMed to death.

So what we do is basically stay at medium to long range, out of direct fire and make yourself look like 12 mechs instead of just one, shooting on anything you can lock as soon as you can recycle those launchers (not overheating and continuing to rain seamlessly is the key).

All in all, if you bring AMS to that type of engagement, it's a waste of tonnage and/or heat. it will not get used, and even if it does, you're doing it wrong and will die quickly.

Even if you go 1 on 1 with an enemy LRM boat, you can use certain maneuvers and techniques to out-LRM it, even if it has a higher tube count. Heat management is key. AMS is meant to protect front-liners. As a LRM boat, you are not in the front, so AMS is not a viable option.

[Kroete]

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Well, firstly I've considered bringing my own, and two, LRMers are EXPECTING AND FACILITATING they will be in this situation by voting for LRM friendly maps. If you're planning on your opposition being other LRM boats due to how you're voting, you should plan accordingly.

You know you will have some enemy lrm-boats (your votes are not enough to prevent it*),
you have problems with lrms/narcs,
you tell others they should take ams,
but
you only consider to take ams for yourself?


Ok ill take ams with my lrms boats to help you out,
but only if you help me while you take bap and tag or narc and use at least one uav a match.
Deal?


* The only maps where lrms are realy handycapped are river city and rubbelite oasis and even on them you can mostly do ok with them. Polar, Alpine and Grim Plexus are the better ones for lrms, the rest is in the middle.

Edited by Kroete, 21 March 2018 - 02:53 AM.

[Vellron2005]

Kroete, on 21 March 2018 - 02:24 AM, said:

You know you will have some enemy lrm-boats (your votes are not enough to prevent it*),
you have problems with lrms/narcs,
you tell others they should take ams,
but
you only consider to take ams for yourself?


Ok ill take ams with my lrms boats to help you out,
but only if you help me while you take bap and tag or narc and use at least one uav a match.
Deal?


* The only maps where lrms are realy handycapped are river city and rubbelite oasis and even on them you can mostly do ok with them. Polar, Alpine and Grim Plexus are the better ones for lrms, the rest is in the middle.

What a great point.. If you don't bring a NARC for me, why should I bring an AMS for you? In a team oriented game, there's no teamwork to speak off.. Unless in a well coordinated unit of friends..

[Lykaon]

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 12:27 PM, said:

Listen, if we're going to be a on Polar to support your playstyle, and we have no hard cover and are assailed by NARCs and UAVs, at least make up for it by being a personal Iron Dome and helping your team with the match up you are built for and are forcing your team into.

AMS goes on LRM boat.

You do know that the most effective AMS is one that is about 250m or so in front of you?

AMS triggers and fires on missiles as the come into range of the AMS "bubble" so having the missile volley enter the "bubble" travel over the bubble center (the mech with the AMS) and continuing past to leave the bubble maximizes AMS exposure.

So now are we going to demand the LRM boats stand 250m in front of everyone else in addition to demanding they also have AMS when polar is the map?

Since LRMs are terrible front line weapons most LRM boats will be second/rear line meaning the AMS they carry will likely be behind most of the team and as such the least effective AMS in the group unless the LRMs are being fired at your team from behind.

So in practice, the most effective AMS deployment is on the vanguard of your team and oddly enough ECM light mechs make excellent AMS vanguards because it is less likely they will be targeted by LRMs and thus cause target selection to gravitate towards mechs behind the ECM vanguard and maximize AMS exposure.

Because of this I would argue AMS goes on ECM light mechs more so than second line LRM boats.

Besides how much extra junk are LRM boats suppose to carry?

1 artemis per launcher at 1 ton each
2 tons of ammo per 5 missile tubes on average (because of poor accuracy of LRMs)
Beagle Active Probe to counter close ECM for 1.5 more tons
TAG to counter distant ECM for another ton and a weapon hardpoint

And now AMS and AMS ammo?

Edited by Lykaon, 21 March 2018 - 06:42 AM.

[Lykaon]

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

Well, firstly I've considered bringing my own, and two, LRMers are EXPECTING AND FACILITATING they will be in this situation by voting for LRM friendly maps. If you're planning on your opposition being other LRM boats due to how you're voting, you should plan accordingly.

I want you to think about what I type next very carefully.

LRMs are typicly second/rear line support. AMS is best in front of LRM targets no behind.

LRMs should not be firing at rear line enemy targets (typically where enemy LRMs originate from) due to the reduced accuracy and effects of LRMs on distant targets.Thus a typical LRM boat target will not be enemy LRM boats.

The Most suitable targets for LRM boats are the enemy vanguard (if unshielded from LRM attacks) The enemy brawlers and advancing mechs are what you want your LRMs firing on to soften the target up and reduce the attackers accuracy and clearity of mind and focus. If you can route a charge your LRMs have effectivley dictated the flow of events and not the enemy.

Ignoring an advancing vanguard of enemy mechs will place enemy brawlers in close proximity to vulnerable LRM carriers thus, yet another reason why it isn't an LRM carrier's job to counter enemy LRMs.

In MWO the most effective anti LRM tactic is fast ECM equiped skirmishing mechs that directly engage the enemy LRM boats.
Using this tactic pretty much ends rear line enemy LRMs.

So what you are asking and think is a reasonable request just isn't as practical as you think it is. Essentially you are saying the least effective portion of a team to counter a specific type of attack from the enemy should be obligated to spend crit slots and tonnage on equipment that will likely be possitioned in the least useful place for that equipment so that LRM boat can help counter an enemy LRM boat that is in fact one of the lowest priorities for an LRM boat to engage or apply counter strategy/equipment.


Instead you should be asking your team's fast skirmishing mechs to wolfpack together and remove the NARCer from the equation because that IS and effective counter strategy while LRM boats having AMS honestly benifits them more than you the vast majority of the time and only rarely because LRM boats are unlikely to make enemy LRMs a priority target thus making AMS on the rear/second line LRM boat a waste of tonnage and space.

[Siegegun]

I have an idea... how about YOU take an AMS and stop telling other how to equip their mechs for a map you don't like. As Lykaon said above... when you equip BAP and tag for my LRM boats I will happily equip AMS. Oh yeah and don't forget to press R. Just like you don't seem to have enough tonnage... neither do I. Artemis, bap, tons of ammo, tag, all these things WEIGH ALOT.

Samial, on 20 March 2018 - 10:24 PM, said:

Bring AMS anyway don't bring LRMs you geriatrics..

LOL. This is funny, you call me a geriatric for bringing LRMs... you should seriously look to yourself before giving anyone advice, let alone call anyone names.

[Leone]

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

THey're the ones voting for the map.

This is a fallacy. I'll vote for that even inna brawler, it's just a good map. Pretty huge though, so I'm not a big fan of it in CW where it just takes so long to tromp back to the enemy drop zone every mech.

Snowbluff, on 20 March 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

They should take responsibility for their actions.

Honestly, I think everyone should.

Brain Cancer, on 20 March 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

And yet, nobody uses them because the general consensus is that 1.5 tons gets a better return on almost anything else.

Oh yes, just because others believe it it cannot be wrong...

Brain Cancer, on 20 March 2018 - 02:46 PM, said:

That's great. Thanks to your map choice, they basically don't have guns while you're getting rushed in the tunnel on Crimson or hiding in the buildings on River City. Enjoy the effective -1 team mate.

Except you can use missiles in the tunnel on Crimson, and defending the approaches to the city in River city.

~Leone.

[Novakaine]

Although I do bring on 99% of my mechs.
I tend to morally opposed the the use of it...........on opposing mechs
Personally I tend to vote for brawler maps I perfer my targets in nice tight clumps.
Where they loses situational awareness and forget about the lurm boat .

Edited by Novakaine, 21 March 2018 - 08:12 AM.

[Snowbluff]

Well, it's not a fallacy. It's really simple.

You're a LRMer.
You vote for Polar Highlands.
Polar Highlands will generally only win if there is enough LRMers voting for it.
Ergo, you're expecting enemy LRMers, and should bring AMS. Even if your team isn't sticking together, it's going to be worth it's tonnage in armor.

No part of that logic doesn't follow.

Now if you're a gunboat.
You don't vote for Polar.
Ergo, Polar doesn't win if you have anything to say about it.
You're planning on having hard cover to block LRMs, so AMS is less valuable.

Not that I'm saying AMS is useless, as point out it works on more things than LRMs, which are more popular in solo queue, and there are more varieties of missiles available after civil war (nearly doubled with ATMs, MRMs, and Rockets).