29 replies to this topic

[Alexander Chenard]

Do we have any on the way? I like playing a challenge but IS Laser is a bit too much of a handicap right now.....or am I crazy?

[FupDup]

Alexander Chenard, on 22 March 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

I like playing a challenge but IS Laser is a bit too much of a handicap right now.....or am I crazy?

Why not both?

And anyways, we did technically just get some minor heat reductions on the IS SL and SPL, but they don't appear to have changed the situation much in the grand scheme of things.

So far there's no word of any future buffs as PGI seems to think that small lasers are only a tiny smidgen too weak (rather than the reality of them being extremely weak).

[Alexander Chenard]

FupDup, on 22 March 2018 - 11:25 AM, said:

Why not both?

And anyways, we did technically just get some minor heat reductions on the IS SL and SPL, but they don't appear to have changed the situation much in the grand scheme of things.

So far there's no word of any future buffs as PGI seems to think that small lasers are only a tiny smidgen too weak (rather than the reality of them being extremely weak).

Lol I guess you are right......If I get 600+ damage on my Grasshopper I feel like I really accomplished something. Getting 1k on a Deathstrike?? I mean....who doesn't get 1k on a Deathstrike?????

[Eisenhorne]

Why do they need them? IS laservomit's not in THAT bad of a place. The WHM-7D, RGH-3A, and TDR-5S-T are all perfectly capable laser vomit mechs. Yes, clan alphas do more, but IS mechs are cooler and burn shorter.

[Alexander Chenard]

Eisenhorne, on 22 March 2018 - 11:30 AM, said:

Why do they need them? IS laservomit's not in THAT bad of a place. The WHM-7D, RGH-3A, and TDR-5S-T are all perfectly capable laser vomit mechs. Yes, clan alphas do more, but IS mechs are cooler and burn shorter.

I think you are definitely right pointing out the perks of using IS laser....I just think those perks pale in comparison the range and damage of Clan Laser.

[yrrot]

IS lasers are currently better at prolonged engagements, I guess. Clan laser vomit doesn't have great sustain, but it does do silly amounts of alpha strike damage.

Based on the way Russ talked in his last Q&A, we can probably expect a series of tweaks over several patches--similarly to what we've seen in the past few patches with small lasers and ACs. They basically have a balance goal that they are incrementally pushing towards.

I'm sure Solaris match data might also prompt some tweaks here and there too.

[Andi Nagasia]

well i think many would be up for buffing IS-DHSs,
that would help IS Lasers as well as IS Energy Mechs in general,

i would say increase Heat dissipation to 1.8(up from 1.5)
which would give them better standing vs Clan DHSs(as IS DHS are larger by 1Crit),

what we have now,
-
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 0DHS(External) 0.15) = -2Heat/Second(IS & Clan) 0Crits/0Tons(as per 250Engine)
-
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 4DHS(External) 0.15) = -2.60Heat/Second(-IS-) 12Crits/4Tons,
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 6DHS(External) 0.15) = -2.90Heat/Second(Clan) 12Crits/6Tons,
-
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 8DHS(External) 0.18) = -3.20Heat/Second(-IS-) 24Crits/8Tons,
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 12DHS(External) 0.15) = -3.80Heat/Second(Clan) 24Crits/12Tons,


how it would change,
-
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 0DHS(External) 0.18) = -2Heat/Second(-IS-) 0Crits/0Tons(as per 250Engine)
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 0DHS(External) 0.15) = -2Heat/Second(Clan) 0Crits/0Tons(as per 250Engine)
-
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 4DHS(External) 0.18) = -2.72Heat/Second(-IS-) 12Crits/4Tons,
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 6DHS(External) 0.15) = -2.90Heat/Second(Clan) 12Crits/6Tons,
-
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 8DHS(External) 0.18) = -3.40Heat/Second(-IS-) 24Crits/8Tons,
10DHS(Engine) 0.20) + 12DHS(External) 0.15) = -3.80Heat/Second(Clan) 24Crits/12Tons,

as you can see even this slight change would bring IS and Clan Dissipation closer when balanced to Crit Slots,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 22 March 2018 - 12:12 PM.

[Sjorpha]

I don't understand why some people still believe IS laser boats have "better sustain", clan laser boats generally have much more heatsinks and better sustained damage.

[Alexander Chenard]

Sjorpha, on 22 March 2018 - 12:21 PM, said:

I don't understand why some people still believe IS laser boats have "better sustain", clan laser boats generally have much more heatsinks and better sustained damage.

Agreed. It's better to peak and alpha than to face tank on accident trying to do the same damage with IS laser

[yrrot]

I suppose it does depend on the chassis. Omni mechs don't absolutely have more heatsinks than IS, due to FF/Endo and fixed engines. Depending on the engine cap difference for the comparison, as well. I want to say about the most DHS you can get on a clan mech (total, including the engine) is probably around 30, and still have weapons enough to matter. IS is closer to 24 DHS max. The difference in heat dissipation for those 6 DHS is 1 ER Med laser's worth of HPS. The reason it isn't a bigger difference is because such a big chunk of heat sinks is in the engine.

The Clanner is also paying 6 extra tons for that cooling (which, lets face it, is probably already saved elsewhere on lighter clan tech). PGI doesn't seem too keen to buff heatsinks, especially not dissipation. Though, perhaps the balancing factor is better off being in the total heat capacity of clan vs IS. If they lowered the amount of max heat bonus provided by clan DHS, it would make the laser vomit game much more of a trade off.

IS lasers have less heat total, more lasers before ghost heat, shorter burn times, and do more damage per heat. Depending on the lasers you are comparing, the IS mech could be firing again ~1sec faster than the clan, and be able to do so several more times before maxing heat. Most clan vomit builds are pushing it to fire a full alpha twice without maxing out heat or cooling between. That's why IS has more sustain. They can keep firing. Doesn't make it better than clan, just means they get to pew pew more without cooling off.

Obviously, sustained DPS builds aren't the current meta, but they are one counter to high-heat alpha builds.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Alexander Chenard, on 22 March 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

Do we have any on the way? I like playing a challenge but IS Laser is a bit too much of a handicap right now.....or am I crazy?

IS lazors are fine. More pinpointy and more sustainable than clan ones. There is about no other way I can think of to make them different and viable at the same time.

Pulses are bad on both sides though.

[BrunoSSace]

IS laser have quicker burns and normally run cooler. They are alot better then the Clans at 400 range brawls. Shoot and twist, you are already twisting before the clans finish their burn. Rule of thumb, don't trade alpha's with clans, dont try and out range clans but get in close and dps them down. IS lasers are ok, not amazing but they can do some serious work in the right situations. You want to alpha, use HG or mrm's not inner Sphere lasers.

[El Bandito]

IS ML and ERML are in a sad shape compared to CERML.

[JohnnyWayne]

Clan OP.

Still.

This community will never change.

Moving on.

[Grus]

Alexander Chenard, on 22 March 2018 - 11:29 AM, said:

Lol I guess you are right......If I get 600+ damage on my Grasshopper I feel like I really accomplished something. Getting 1k on a Deathstrike?? I mean....who doesn't get 1k on a Deathstrike?????

damage is a little different IS vs Clan. Is mechs dont need to do as much damage to a clan mech to get a kill. granted they do less damage pers wep per shot, they can fire faster for the most part and more often before hitting shutdown. Clan mechs do more damage per "trigger pull" but the refire is slower and much higher heat cost. (ranges being known)

[justcallme A S H]

IS lasers are fine if boated on the right mechs (ie, GHP-5H).

You can match trades with clan out to 600. No worries.

It does take more skill though, only issue with IS mechs.

[LT. HARDCASE]

JohnnyWayne, on 22 March 2018 - 04:09 PM, said:

Clan OP.

Still.

This community will never change.

Moving on.

You're saying it's not true? Does the team composition of the MWOWC need to be trotted out for the bajillionth time? Surely the rosters of the best players would overflow with IS chassis picks if the IS tech were on equal or better footing.

Edited by LT. HARDCASE, 22 March 2018 - 04:51 PM.

[Y E O N N E]

The amount of misinformation in this thread is frightening.

Honestly? Lasers aren't too bad at the moment. I think the isERML could lose a half point of heat, I think both Large Pulse need to get buffed by a point of damage, I think the entire line-up of Small lasers needs a rework for both sides, and I think the Clan Medium and Small Pulse need to be re-tuned so that they can have consistent range multipliers.

[justcallme A S H]

Yeonne Greene, on 22 March 2018 - 06:20 PM, said:

The amount of misinformation in this thread is frightening.

Honestly? Lasers aren't too bad at the moment. I think the isERML could lose a half point of heat, I think both Large Pulse need to get buffed by a point of damage, I think the entire line-up of Small lasers needs a rework for both sides, and I think the Clan Medium and Small Pulse need to be re-tuned so that they can have consistent range multipliers.

You honestly expected any less? lol.

But yes agree with those. cSPL / IS SPL IS MPL are still in a horrific place. And cMicro? ugh.

IS ERML while maybe half a point of heat is actually in a pretty decent place when combined with IS LL. It's 'trade ability' vs Clan Laser of the same level is not as far out as people claim due to duration... But like all things, if you just sit there and let someone hold a high alpha burn on you for 1.5s... You've got more problems than the weapons.

LT. HARDCASE, on 22 March 2018 - 04:51 PM, said:

You're saying it's not true? Does the team composition of the MWOWC need to be trotted out for the bajillionth time? Surely the rosters of the best players would overflow with IS chassis picks if the IS tech were on equal or better footing.

MWOOC and Div A MRBC overally, is a very different beast to QP and FP, the common game modes the majority of the player base engage in.

While Comp players should be listened to more about balance than they are currently, as they understand the game better than anyone, you gotta keep in mind the majority as well.


There is no need to trot out the percentages unless you actually understand what they mean, and it feels to me like you do not. So let me help.

Div A / Elite play is essentially long range trading with ERL and ERPPC. Now this isn't just an issue from the IS weapons. It's a combination of many things:

• cDHS
  
• IS weapon tonnage
  
• IS DHS crit slot space
  
• IS XL v cXL
  
• Highmount hardpoints on more Clan mechs than IS mechs
  
• Weapon boating abiliy vs exposure time

And those are not all the things either, just the big ones. That is why Clan Mechs were (and have been) so prolific at the upper echelon of MWO for a long time.

That said in the lower divisions of comp play you see quite a few more IS mechs as those teams/players cannot play extreme range to the level required. And in that instance the balance is not "that" far off once you put a bunch of other things into the equation.

[justcallme A S H]

And don't get me wrong - Clan laser vom is still stronger than IS overall and it is easier to play.

The recent cDHS change also doing absolutely nothing to alter that. Not sure what Chris was thinking there as a HLL crits out almost instantly once a mech is open for instance so if you ain't got the lazors... Ya don't even need the sinks...