61 replies to this topic

[Sniper09121986]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 26 March 2018 - 12:37 PM, said:

-13% higher jam chance
-7% longer jam duration
-SRMs now only sandblast opponents

1-2. When I tried Clan Ultras I could have sworn jam chance is around 60%. Goes on to explain why people whine about Gauss abundance.
3. LOL, you mean they actually register for you? Oh well...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

It is 100% factual that all 65 ton mechs have the same structure and armor caps. It's QUIRKS that when present grant the advantage to the Inner Sphere mech. Since there are no quirks that grant I.S. mechs the powers of innate clan tech there are quirks granted to compensate for those innate abilities.

So let's look at the heat dissapation. An I.S. mech may have a 10% heat efficency quirk while the clan mech counterpart simply has more available tonnage and space to load up on heatsinks because of the lighter and more compact clantech gear. In addition to just being capable of putting in more heatsinks the clan mech gets more health from simply loading in heatsinks. Each heatsink is now a potential target to take damage. a flat percentile based quirk does not crit pad a chassis but having the tonnage and space to just put in more stuff does.

And that is part of the reason for I.S. mechs getting structure quirks. The quirked hitpoints on structure is to equalize the Inner Sphere mechs simply not having anything to take the hits but the mech's structure.

what?

You take structural damage any time you are open in the structure. Crits happen whether or not anything is in the section and they deal 15% of their damage to structure. Not only that but due to the extremely low health of Clan components they still have lower health than IS would.

So for a Hellbringer in a laser build its torsos would have 1ECM, 3ERML, and 3DHS in one side, and 2 HLL and 2DHS in the other. This is 29 HP and 20hp respectively. A Warhammer would have 2 large class lasers and 2 DHS in one torso and 1 large class laser, 2 DHS, and 2 ERML in the other which is 35 HP and 40 HP respectively. So the Warhammer has 20% and 100% the internal HP of the Hellbringer's side torsos when both are set in the role of laser boating.

Nobody talks about IS mechs without quirks because they're irrelevant. If you aren't using the IS mech quirked up to the task you're trying to do then that's user error, not a faction problem. IS is made entirely out of specialists while Clan is primarily generalist. Pick the right tool for the job.


Besides that, IS mechs getting armor quirks means that not only do they have the advantage of those quirks over the Clanner, they also have the advantage now in skill tree. If your mech is the same weight as the other mech but your CT has 10% more armor than the Clan mech then suddenly the armor skills 10% better for you than the clanner, and consider that there are examples of IS mechs having about 24% higher CT hp than a mech of their weight class without durability quirks. This further helps out IS mechs in trades against Clan mechs. Not only do they have 40% lower beam duration times so that clan mechs only actually do 55 damage in the time that the IS mech can fire up to 57 (3LL+6 ERML, beam duration gets even lower and damage goes to 60 if you swap to LPL, or the unholy old meta of the Wubshee's MPL and LPL combos), they also have more durability.

HBR CT is 126 total health, this is dead in 2 and 22% of an IS alpha. The IS mech needs a total of 2.442 seconds of beam time on target to kill the HBR. The HBR needs 2.504 seconds of beam time to destroy the same target yet must fight things that actually have more total health. This means that the trades are in favor of the IS mech in both damage per tick and total health pool and that if the IS mech pilot is properly torso twisting after he has shot, even if he is absorbing damage for the full duration of his own burn, he should be able to defeat the Clan mech without a problem even in a laservomit fight.

[Krivvan]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

actually those literally are quirks you are talking about because without quirks all mechs of a set weight have equal structure and armor caps.

Inner Sphere ballistics without quirks do NOT have longer ranges it's the QUIRKS not innate freebies like the list I provided.

Clan LB5X range = 720m
I.S. LB5X range = 700
Clan UAC5 range = 630m
I.S. UAC5 = 600m
Clan UAC20 =360m
I.S. UAC20 = 270m
Clan UAC10 = 540m
I.S. UAC10 = 450m

Max range. Not optimal. Take a look at the LBX2 for the clearest example.

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

And that is part of the reason for I.S. mechs getting structure quirks. The quirked hitpoints on structure is to equalize the Inner Sphere mechs simply not having anything to take the hits but the mech's structure.

You're really outdated again. Many Inner Sphere mechs have armor quirks in addition to structure quirks and armor quirks are highly prized.

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 12:15 PM, said:

Since there are no quirks that grant I.S. mechs the powers of innate clan tech there are quirks granted to compensate for those innate abilities.

Yes, and your point being? Who cares whether the power comes from innate tech advantage or quirks. Those quirks are a major part of what equalizes the best Clan and IS mechs. Pointing out Clan tech advantage in a vacuum is worthless if you don't also take into account IS quirks.

Edited by Krivvan, 26 March 2018 - 01:13 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Krivvan, on 26 March 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

Pointing out Clan tech advantage in a vacuum is worthless if you don't also take into account IS quirks.

We'd never have to even have IS vs Clan balance discussions on this forum is more people would actually realize this and understand how balance with asymmetric factions work.

edit:

Really 90% of the whine over balance is just people looking at the big scary number shown on a clan laser alpha then comparing it to an IS one while leaving out all the other advantages that even an unquirked IS laser vomit mech has over the Clan counterpart. I could have done the math in the above post while accounting for quirks on a valid mech, then throw in the skill tree that gives IS 15% duration boosts while Clan only gets 10%, and the gap widens. People entirely disregard the whole PPFLD meta that had been going on and still does to an extent.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 26 March 2018 - 01:32 PM.

[yrrot]

Unquirked, max vomit without ghost heat:

Clan HLL/HML vomit: 76 damage, 12 tons, 14 slots, 1.55 sec max duration(HLL), 64 heat, 9.82 DPS
Clan HLL/ERML vomit: 78 damage, 14 tons, 12 slots, 1.55 sec max duration(HLL), 69.8 heat, 12.26 DPS
Clan LPL/MPL vomit: 66 damage, 24 tons, 10 slots, 1.09 sec max duration(LPL), 48.5 heat, 16.34 DPS
IS LL/ERML vomit: 57 damage, 21 tons, 12 slots, 1.1 sec max duration(LL), 48 heat, 12.55 DPS
IS LPL/MPL vomit: 65 damage, 33 tons, 12 slots, .67 sec max duration(LPL), 44.55 heat, 16 DPS

The balancing factor that PGI seems to be going for here is that IS gets better sustainable DPS, mixed with their survival quirks at the cost of not doing as much damage per volley as the clan. All at the low, low price of 50% more tonnage. At least when comparing regular lasers. That clan pulse laser build seems pretty good by comparison. Of course, it's a little more difficult to find an IS mech with 9 energy hardpoints than it is to find a clan mech with 6-8 energy.

I think the reason people like to complain heavily about the clan vomit is that alpha damage. Even with armor quirks, the 70+ damage vomit is enough to go beyond a number of IS mechs armor, especially STs. Granted, it isn't enough to crack the most heavily quirked IS mechs or assaults in one volley, but it can take out IS medium and light mech components well in one shot. We're looking at a 20 damage difference in that first trade, and that's significant.

Sure, in a 1v1 fight where both mechs stand and deliver, the IS mech is going to have an advantage. The clanner has a better advantage if they can get cover between volleys and mitigate the differences in cooldown/heat. In group fights, that's much easier--which inflates people's complaints about clans, think.

[Krivvan]

yrrot, on 26 March 2018 - 02:27 PM, said:

The balancing factor that PGI seems to be going for here is that IS gets better sustainable DPS, mixed with their survival quirks at the cost of not doing as much damage per volley as the clan. All at the low, low price of 50% more tonnage. At least when comparing regular lasers. That clan pulse laser build seems pretty good by comparison. Of course, it's a little more difficult to find an IS mech with 9 energy hardpoints than it is to find a clan mech with 6-8 energy.

I think the reason people like to complain heavily about the clan vomit is that alpha damage. Even with armor quirks, the 70+ damage vomit is enough to go beyond a number of IS mechs armor, especially STs. Granted, it isn't enough to crack the most heavily quirked IS mechs or assaults in one volley, but it can take out IS medium and light mech components well in one shot. We're looking at a 20 damage difference in that first trade, and that's significant.

Of course that's why good IS builds that use lasers tend to be Light mechs or more highly quirked Assaults.

The 70 damage vomit is only scary if you face stare and don't mitigate its damage. Part of the reason why it's so scary may be just that, it's scariest when you just let the Clan mech put its full alpha into your one component. If the other mech is somewhat active in their response to the Clan alpha, they can twist off or hit cover before receiving the full hit. IS weapons, although lower in alpha, more reliably put damage into a single component. That alone isn't what equalizes Clan and IS, but is one of the factors.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 26 March 2018 - 11:03 AM, said:

You do see clans lost a bunch of planets occupied at about when we had Luthien event. Maybe clan players just stop giving a fuсk, maybe its because c-bill annihilator release and according meta shift, but in any case clans losing ground for several months now.

Clan players stopped giving a ****? That's a laugh. Clans technically still won Luthien, though PGI bungled that up. Sure, the gap has closed, but not entirely. Otherwise both IS and Clans would have the same tonnage in Invasion mode. As is, IS can't live without that 25 extra tons, which says a lot for faction balance.

Edited by El Bandito, 26 March 2018 - 05:09 PM.

[Lykaon]

Krivvan, on 26 March 2018 - 02:35 PM, said:

Of course that's why good IS builds that use lasers tend to be Light mechs or more highly quirked Assaults.

The 70 damage vomit is only scary if you face stare and don't mitigate its damage. Part of the reason why it's so scary may be just that, it's scariest when you just let the Clan mech put its full alpha into your one component. If the other mech is somewhat active in their response to the Clan alpha, they can twist off or hit cover before receiving the full hit. IS weapons, although lower in alpha, more reliably put damage into a single component. That alone isn't what equalizes Clan and IS, but is one of the factors.

Now what happens if the clan mech targets with some intelligence?

When I use my Helbringer I do not chase light mechs or trade with agile slim profile heavy or mediums. I execute assault mechs.

The scenario you outlined is why. If I face trade with an I.S. laser boat that target will finish first and evade/dispurse a portion of my damage. But if I use the ECM's stealth and side poke at a big low agility target I get full burn more reliably. I won't offer trades that favor my targets. My Hellbringer is faster and ECM cloaked if I can't manage to dictate the majority of the trades I'm screwed by other factors already.

Far to often the examples used on forums are a clan mech fighting under the most favorable circumstances for it's I.S. counterpart. And to me this means that these sorts of arguments are put forth my morons who don't realize they should fight to their strengths and not pick fights that favor their enemy.

[K O Z A K]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

Now what happens if the clan mech targets with some intelligence?

When I use my Helbringer I do not chase light mechs or trade with agile slim profile heavy or mediums. I execute assault mechs.

The scenario you outlined is why. If I face trade with an I.S. laser boat that target will finish first and evade/dispurse a portion of my damage. But if I use the ECM's stealth and side poke at a big low agility target I get full burn more reliably. I won't offer trades that favor my targets. My Hellbringer is faster and ECM cloaked if I can't manage to dictate the majority of the trades I'm screwed by other factors already.

Far to often the examples used on forums are a clan mech fighting under the most favorable circumstances for it's I.S. counterpart. And to me this means that these sorts of arguments are put forth my morons who don't realize they should fight to their strengths and not pick fights that favor their enemy.

So you decide to dispute others and call them names for showing under which conditions IS mechs are strong by describing an extremely specific engagement under which your alphabringer is at it's strongest?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

Now what happens if the clan mech targets with some intelligence?

When I use my Helbringer I do not chase light mechs or trade with agile slim profile heavy or mediums. I execute assault mechs.

The scenario you outlined is why. If I face trade with an I.S. laser boat that target will finish first and evade/dispurse a portion of my damage. But if I use the ECM's stealth and side poke at a big low agility target I get full burn more reliably. I won't offer trades that favor my targets. My Hellbringer is faster and ECM cloaked if I can't manage to dictate the majority of the trades I'm screwed by other factors already.

Far to often the examples used on forums are a clan mech fighting under the most favorable circumstances for it's I.S. counterpart. And to me this means that these sorts of arguments are put forth my morons who don't realize they should fight to their strengths and not pick fights that favor their enemy.

We compare heavies to heavies since they're the same role and because you could have a team of 3 hellbringers and some 45 ton mech per player against a team of 4 IS heavies per player, so its a valid example of a potential fight.

We also try to take user skill out of the equation and state only the stats of each weapon, as throwing in the skill always just becomes an "I can do this with X" then "If you can do that, then X can do this to counter that". It becomes just a what if fight.

For example, if you are intelligently targeting things, those assault mechs could also be intelligently twisting or taking cover or forcing you into their range bracket or any number of things, especially with how many Hellbringer alpha strikes that an Annihilator can absorb before dying with good torso twisting, even with LFE. Heck, some flamer and MG light could just run up to you and you don't get to dictate that fight.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 26 March 2018 - 06:31 PM.

[Krivvan]

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

The scenario you outlined is why. If I face trade with an I.S. laser boat that target will finish first and evade/dispurse a portion of my damage. But if I use the ECM's stealth and side poke at a big low agility target I get full burn more reliably. I won't offer trades that favor my targets. My Hellbringer is faster and ECM cloaked if I can't manage to dictate the majority of the trades I'm screwed by other factors already.

But then when they push you, your ECM is 100% useless and you don't have the firepower or HP to survive the engagement.

Oh but then your team uses a superior positioning to put in alphas through crossfire denying the enemy the ability to properly push.

Oh but then the other team uses their better poking Lights to pick off and kill your spread mechs at a safe distance.

See how this can go in circles and circles?

You basically said something equivalent to "but if I play like an unbelievably awesome badass in my Clan mech then the IS mechs are screwed!" while somehow missing that one could say "but if I play like an unbelievably awesome badass in my IS mech then the Clan mechs are screwed!"

We aren't arguing that IS mechs are OP here. We're arguing that they have situations that favour them just like how Clan mechs also have situations that favour them and that on a whole it balances out relatively well.

Lykaon, on 26 March 2018 - 06:12 PM, said:

Far to often the examples used on forums are a clan mech fighting under the most favorable circumstances for it's I.S. counterpart. And to me this means that these sorts of arguments are put forth my morons who don't realize they should fight to their strengths and not pick fights that favor their enemy.

And the same goes for people who don't realize that IS mechs also can fight to their strengths and not pick fights that favour their enemy.

Edited by Krivvan, 26 March 2018 - 07:29 PM.

[yrrot]

Krivvan, on 26 March 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

And the same goes for people who don't realize that IS mechs also can fight to their strengths and not pick fights that favour their enemy.

It's almost like asymmetrical balance and strategy...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

yrrot, on 26 March 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

It's almost like asymmetrical balance and strategy...

Really gets the ol' noggin' joggin'.

[Sniper09121986]

Sniper09121986, on 16 May 2015 - 01:58 PM, said:

As for Clans... Well, I do not know. I do not know how else and how many more times and how loud to tell these people that Clan laser-boating is the direct consequence of NOT HAVING ANYTHING ELSE!!! LRMs are useless right now. UACs spread the damage so wildly I hardly even bother to dodge them. LB-x are even less useful against a target with a single point of armour on it at any range other than point blank (though I may be too general on this one). What are we supposed to do now, jump-stomp them? Just allow cross-tech and let us boat the stone-age IS tech already!

This post of mine will soon turn 3 years old, and the only thing that has changed is the state of LB-x, praise be for that at least. And yet the proposed solution remains the same, because the cumulative convolution of balancing efforts has made other ways of adjustment pretty much impossible. I can see no other way to put an end to this problem. And if someone claims that everything is balanced now, then what do you lose? Because if you have something to lose that others do not have then this is not balanced anymore, no son.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Sniper09121986, on 26 March 2018 - 11:11 PM, said:

This post of mine will soon turn 3 years old, and the only thing that has changed is the state of LB-x, praise be for that at least. And yet the proposed solution remains the same, because the cumulative convolution of balancing efforts has made other ways of adjustment pretty much impossible. I can see no other way to put an end to this problem. And if someone claims that everything is balanced now, then what do you lose? Because if you have something to lose that others do not have then this is not balanced anymore, no son.

This is pretty much how it goes when people whine asking to nerf whatever kills them. You get people who whine over nerfing LRMs, LRMs get nerfed and are useless compared to other options. People boat ballistics, they get nerfed and no one uses them over other options. People brawl with SRMs and those get nerfed. People use pin point frontloaded damage alphas and those get nerfed, people use lasers and those get nerfed.

All of these weapon types have been nerfed and only the lasers are able to really survive at the moment, and that's because torso twisting also got nerfed, so laser boating is practically relatively buffed and having any skill at the game to be able to torso twist damage away or pinpoint enemy components is nerfed.

Gauss gets honorable mention as just being useful in being paired with lasers when you can't fit any more lasers on the mech without ghost heat.

[Dogstar]

Wow the forum is really awash with fake tears today. Maybe clans should git gud?

[JohnnyWayne]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 28 March 2018 - 01:42 PM.
ad hominem, replies removed

[Formosa The God]

Dogstar, on 28 March 2018 - 04:23 AM, said:

[Redacted]

Your wrong, you USED to be right, but now your wrong, IS mechs are easy mode, they are literally point and click now, Clan forces you to move to stay out of the Brawl with IS and if you get that wrong you have lost.

Edited by draiocht, 28 March 2018 - 01:49 PM.
Quote Clean-Up

[Bud Crue]

Formosa The God, on 28 March 2018 - 04:56 AM, said:

Your wrong, you USED to be right, but now your wrong, IS mechs are easy mode, they are literally point and click now, Clan forces you to move to stay out of the Brawl with IS and if you get that wrong you have lost.

Man, I don't know. My MK-IIs, Mad-IIcs, Hellbringer, Timber, Ebon, Hunch-IIc, and Phaket are all pretty much "point and click"; literally. Oh hell, Piranhas practically define this.

Hmm...I hate going here, but perhaps Russ and Chris are really right after all?
Perhaps balance is just so good that both sides are now "easy mode" or at least have some variants that seem like that. I mean I kinda feel like there are a couple mechs on the IS side that are like this too: Damn near any of the dual HG Annis, Cyclops and even Maulers; MRM spamming IV-4s (you mother ******* are going to get my favorit mech nerfed and for that I loath you), Energy vomit Warhammers, etc.

Such scarry times we live in that I have to admit that there are some mechs on both sides that seem really easy to play.

[Formosa The God]

Bud Crue, on 28 March 2018 - 06:06 AM, said:

Man, I don't know. My MK-IIs, Mad-IIcs, Hellbringer, Timber, Ebon, Hunch-IIc, and Phaket are all pretty much "point and click"; literally. Oh hell, Piranhas practically define this.

Hmm...I hate going here, but perhaps Russ and Chris are really right after all?
Perhaps balance is just so good that both sides are now "easy mode" or at least have some variants that seem like that. I mean I kinda feel like there are a couple mechs on the IS side that are like this too: Damn near any of the dual HG Annis, Cyclops and even Maulers; MRM spamming IV-4s (you mother ******* are going to get my favorit mech nerfed and for that I loath you), Energy vomit Warhammers, etc.

Such scarry times we live in that I have to admit that there are some mechs on both sides that seem really easy to play.

Yep and thats the good thing to me, both my Clan and IS mechs are usable now in different ways, my IS mechs are soooo much simpler to use due to less weapons, less heat, one tap dakka etc.

where as my clan ones require a slight amount of thought, higher heat, longer burns, sucky dakka.

I am not complaining though, each side has its stand outs, the Battlemaster for IS is in my opinion the best sniper mech in the game, with the Marauder IIC being the best assault, swings and roundabouts.