107 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Pylorous, on 29 March 2018 - 04:26 PM, said:

Why do none of the trial mechs have AMS? Its crazy how much I'm getting ripped up by missile boats

There are some that do... but they may not be in rotation at the moment...

PGI really should rotate the trials more often. Once a month would probably be good (every patch).

Metus regem, on 29 March 2018 - 07:15 AM, said:

Now where did I say that I recommend bracket builds or stock builds for new players? The dragon I showed was one that I currently use, but it is built with weapon synergy in mind from the UAC/10 and LL.

Q: Wouldn't a PPC (maybe even a Snubnose) pair up even better than a LL? AC10 requires leading. The LL doesn't. Though they do share similar ranges. But a PPC and AC10 has very similar velocity, meaning almost the same amount of lead required, with very similar ranges...

I say this as I've recently been using a PPC and AC10 Uziel to good effect. Actually better effect than when I had an AC10 and 4 ERMLs...

Koniving, on 29 March 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

Sorry got distracted, booting up now.
"High end players" think that LRMs are a useless joke weapon, and chastize players that use them (because they get killed by the LRMs...)
Though they will claim that those are wasted tons and terrible weapons..

So if "no one would ever use LRMs"... why carry AMS?

Trust me. I hear this all the time. Still surprising T1 players with my own LRMs... Just needing to be sneaky about it. And their normal lack of AMS pleases me...

Koniving, on 29 March 2018 - 05:02 PM, said:

Seems there's an issue that needs to be brought to PGI's attention... if players can't see themselves in groups in order to ready up.

It's a known bug form about a patch ago. Best solution has been to log out and restart MW:O. Seems to clear the problem up when it happens...

[Horseman]

Koniving, on 29 March 2018 - 04:41 PM, said:

"High end players" think that LRMs are a useless joke weapon, and chastize players that use them (because they get killed by the LRMs...)
Though they will claim that those are wasted tons and terrible weapons..

Let's be fair... the reason that stigma got attached in the first place is that they're the go-to weapon for too many players whose skill levels are a useless joke.

Quote

So if "no one would ever use LRMs"... why carry AMS?

It shoots down SRMs, SSRMs and ATMs.

[Zergling]

SRMs and ATMs are the reason for AMS, not LRMs. LRMs can be countered hilariously easily just by knowing how to break LOS; there is no need for AMS.

LRMs actually work fine at the bottom Tiers, because so few players know how to effectively defend themselves against them.
But they are discouraged even so, because a novice player that relies upon them will never learn important skills like 'how to aim', and will then struggle once they reach higher Tiers and are facing players that know how to render their weapon ineffective.

Like, I find it incredibly amusing when I'm taking heavy LRM fire as I poke in and out of cover; I take practically zero damage from the LRMs, and I know that I'm absorbing the attention and weapons fire from at least one enemy player to utterly no effect on my own combat ability.

Edited by Zergling, 29 March 2018 - 11:59 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Zergling, on 29 March 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:

SRMs and ATMs are the reason for AMS, not LRMs. LRMs can be countered hilariously easily just by knowing how to break LOS; there is no need for AMS.

it is true it can be easy to counter indirectly fired LRMs however if someone is firing them with their own lock it can be much harder to evade them ^{(especialy because they are likely to be closer thus you get less reaction time)}, also this thread is in the New Player Help forum, new players are likely to take a while to figure out and get competant at breaking locks, so newer players ^{(especialy those on their first 25 matches who are by far the most likely to be using Champion Mechs)} will get far more benefit from AMS than someone who has been playing for a while.

AMS does not work well against SRMs in my experiance, although of course other peoples experiances will vary.

to counter LRMS

1) break Line Of Sight and about 2 seconds later the missiles will stop tracking ^{(assuming you do not have Radar Deprivation skills unlocked, and the player targeting does not have Target Decay unlocked)}, 2 seconds is long enough for LRMs to travel 320m or for ATMs to travel 400m, so if the missile boat is inside 500m you may not have enougth time for the lock to be broken

2) put something between you and the missiles (e.g. a building, cliff edge, cave roof)

3) AMS ^{(it will destroy some of the incoming missiles, 1 AMS can shoot down about 5 missiles from a volly of LRMs if you are standing still, if moving away from the missiles the AMS has more time to work and thus can kill more missiles, and muitlple AMS multiplies the ammount of misisles destroyed, there are quite a few Mechs able to mount 2 AMS, a few able to mount 3, and one varient of the Piranah can mount 4, for the full list check out the following tread https://mwomercs.com...t-multiple-ams/)}

4) get under freindly ECM ^{(again breaks locks, again is likely to take 2 seconds for the lock to be broken unless you have unlocked relevent skills skills)}

5) unlock Radar Deprivation skills, used in conjunction with breaking L_^ineO_^fS_^ight or getting under ECM cover can speed breaking of the locks, with all Radar Deprivation nodes unlocked the lock breaks instantly unless the enemy has Target Decay^{(Target Decay isanother skill which can be unlocked, the direct counter to radar deprivation, radar deprivation reduces the time you remain targeted after you break line of sight or get under ECM, Target decay increases the time the shooter can hold the lock)}

I suspect Zergling's advice was based upon having Radar Deprivation unlocked when the enemy does not have Target Decay, which is not something a new player in trial Mechs can control.

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 30 March 2018 - 04:22 AM.

[Pylorous]

My immediate reaction to taking missile fire is to break LOS and try to find something to hide behind, but I often take at least a few shots before I can break lock. Also, can't a spotter mech feed the missile boats with targets, thus making it much harder to break LOS?

Many thanks to Koniving for hanging out last night and explaining a bunch of things to me. I think I have my list narrowed down to about 6 mechs right now. They are: Battlemaster, Rifleman, Jagermech, Bushwhacker, Warhammer, and Marauder. I think I want to buy one with C-bills, and possible spend a little cash to buy a Hero version (or maybe a whole 4 pack) of a second one. All of those mechs except for the Battlemaster and Jagermech are on sale right now. So here's the next question: What are your opinions of the hero versions of those mechs, and if you were going to pick one to buy with c-bills and one to buy with cash, which would you do? The key points I want are survivability, decent speed, good ranged damage, and I want to lean towards ballistics, though I'm not opposed to energy weapons, just have to get used to dealing with heat. Thanks!

Edited by Pylorous, 30 March 2018 - 04:40 AM.

[Horseman]

If you are to pick up a full pack, I would strongly recommend the Marauder - got all C-Bill variants, and recently obtained a Bounty Hunter II, so far it looks decent. The 3R is a workhorse for Faction Play Invasion (UAC/20 + 4ML or 4 MPL, very good brawler)

[Pylorous]

Another quick question - it look like metamechs hasn't been updated in quite a while. Is there another site besides Smurfy's that lays out some builds and explains the theory behind them like metamechs did?

[Koniving]

Zergling, on 29 March 2018 - 11:53 PM, said:

SRMs and ATMs are the reason for AMS, not LRMs. LRMs can be countered hilariously easily just by knowing how to break LOS; there is no need for AMS.

LRMs actually work fine at the bottom Tiers, because so few players know how to effectively defend themselves against them.
But they are discouraged even so, because a novice player that relies upon them will never learn important skills like 'how to aim', and will then struggle once they reach higher Tiers and are facing players that know how to render their weapon ineffective.

Like, I find it incredibly amusing when I'm taking heavy LRM fire as I poke in and out of cover; I take practically zero damage from the LRMs, and I know that I'm absorbing the attention and weapons fire from at least one enemy player to utterly no effect on my own combat ability.

You're describing a situation using a relatively fast mech. Not every mech is fast. Not every mech has maxed the mobility tree. This is in addition to full on radar deprivation and assuming the enemy doesn't have target decay (which if they don't, they shouldn't be running LRMs OR long-range use of ATMS to begin with).

In fact many mechs haven't even touched the mobility tree, they spam firepower and survival, and thus cannot quickly pop in and out of cover.

This agility is the exception, not the norm.

Edited by Koniving, 30 March 2018 - 06:07 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

Pylorous, on 30 March 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

Another quick question - it look like metamechs hasn't been updated in quite a while. Is there another site besides Smurfy's that lays out some builds and explains the theory behind them like metamechs did?

There's really no equivalent, but a good player recently put together this list: https://docs.google....t#gid=868162679

He's ranked a bunch of builds into tiers, and while some are debatable, it's a good basis to go off of.

Of the 6 mechs you've listed, Battlemaster, Rifleman, Jagermech, Bushwhacker, Warhammer, and Marauder:

Battlemaster hero is good on hot maps because of a special quirk, but otherwise not so great.
Rifleman hero is decent but nothing special.
Jagermech hero is not great, only 2 ballistics and the best thing a jager does is dakka.
Bushwhacker hero is OK, but nothing special compared to other variants.
Warhammer hero is very good, it can do builds other warhammers can't (4x ballistics in torso).
Marauder hero is good, a straight upgrade on most other marauder builds. Like the warhammer hero more tho.

[Koniving]

Pylorous, on 30 March 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

Another quick question - it look like metamechs hasn't been updated in quite a while. Is there another site besides Smurfy's that lays out some builds and explains the theory behind them like metamechs did?

Li Song has a mech lab which may or may not have build theory info, I'm not sure.

Beyond that, not really.

Quote

Edit: Metamechs MechSpecs was run by the community with its often higher rated builds pumped by competition players, and once competitions began having money involved, some builds despite saying that they are high end mechs, are pretty easily countered once you know where their equipment and flaws are. I believe this is because if you want to be at the top of a competition, you give away the less than stellar but still better than most builds... This ensures people will A) use them, and B ) be built exactly as you want them to be built so that C ) you can easily dissect them by exploiting the weaknesses you had built into them, so that D ) you can reap the rewards and the cash. Every edge you can get to get to the top. There's a reason that some athletes test positive for steroids and chemical performance enhancements in the Olympics; a lot of pride and money rides on such competitions, and when MWO had a big prize... just put it together.

Many "low level" contributions are genuine, some, particularly by the highest end players, are cleverly described death traps.

Edit: Though builds from MetaMechs have caused a number of problems with new players and rage quitting in the past, (mostly due to the way more experienced players would blindly throw them in and pump them as the only way to play without any explanation as to how to actually use them or consideration as to how compatible they are with the new players' current level of skill and playstyle or whether the builds are team or solo builds... NOT directly because of the site itself), I had incorrectly associated it to be the other popular but less often mentioned build site MechSpecs that is community run, where anyone can post any build, rate, them, give their own info on them, etc.

Both sites have caused their issues (indirectly), however deliberately misdirecting players into easy to kill mechs is not something that Metamechs had done and I digress it did not deserve that incorrect association. This post has been edited to correctly reflect the name of the site I was actually talking about, with MetaMechs struck through.

Furthermore, potential malicious intent by competitive players seeking advantages by sharing builds that they know the weakness to on MechSpecs.com has been reworded to reflect that it is an opinion and suspicion. Many players share their builds for the good of the community, however some players value their stats above all else and the easiest way to preserve them, is to have an edge. Sharing builds that people will blindly copy is the easiest way to have that edge, especially when winning real money is involved.

Quote added for emphasis on the correction.
---

Figure this to be true: SRMs, good. Multiple ACs, generally good-ish (fast kills for a bit of spammery). Laser vomit...unfortunately,king. There's few builds that beat it, one of them is apparently twin LBX-20 with lots of SRM-6s + Artemis. Encountered that once, never had a more humiliating one shot against an Annihilator.

.....To mention, the Annihilator is one of the IS's most heavily armored 100 ton mechs.
....One shotted.
By CT.
Holy.
****.

That was in a one versus one match, too.

Edited by Koniving, 31 March 2018 - 12:22 PM.

[Koniving]

Also note builds are ranked into tiers by preference of the person or people ranking them.

Not all builds work the same for all people. For example, Zergling's methods and tactics generally work for me, but mine do not work for him.

Another high end player has pumped out a plethora of suggestions of UACs, but while that works for many players, it didn't work for a different new player due to the designs being too hot, requiring some strict conditions to be met in order to be guaranteed success without shutting down next to enemies, etc, and being forbidden the XL engine in favor of an LFE ended up putting the player in situations where they can't escape, drastically slaughtering that poor player's stats. A few changes to what was "terrible" by that advising player, and things turned around. Cool enough to engage as necessary and fast enough to get the **** out of dodge when **** goes bad.

Why did that high end player's suggestion flop so bad? That player plays team matches, in group play, with HELP from other players. The one he advised? A solo player in pugs, with uncooperative team mates, as such there's no one to protect him when he shuts down. Getting so close to make the most out of the UACs brought him into situations where he couldn't get out of. Sure, he never jammed to the point of not being able to fight, but... if he did survive more than two encounters, he was out of ammo in addition to the lack of speed. This doesn't matter if you have an organized team behind you. But if you don't... it matters.

And a lot of these "high end" players don't seem to realize this.

(Most players tactics can work for me, so long as the mechs aren't going too fast with travel-time weaponry. I'm a bit of a jack of most trades.)

[Koniving]

Oh, since there's a faction play event going on, which is generally easier than group play but harder than solo play... Pylorous do you have Teamspeak or Discord? Gonna use my phone as an alternative headset today since I don't know where my wife put the actual headset. (Considering it was up high, I think the excuse "Baby rawrs found it so I put it up" was just to keep me from talking to players while she slept.

Anyway I need to finish the Capellan tree here for unlocks, and I figure you can use the opportunity to 'grind' for some free mechbays and cbill bonuses as well as get to experience what having 4 lives is like.

God she's so cute. She's stomping around like a mech. Not even two years old yet.

[Horseman]

Pylorous, on 30 March 2018 - 05:49 AM, said:

Another quick question - it look like metamechs hasn't been updated in quite a while. Is there another site besides Smurfy's that lays out some builds and explains the theory behind them like metamechs did?

Not really. Some units run their own build repositories in their forums, usually outside of general public access. Metamechs is out of date due to Civil War update and if my memory serves their skill tree guides are (tbh as most of those out there) on the terrible side as well.

Pylorous, on 30 March 2018 - 04:38 AM, said:

Many thanks to Koniving for hanging out last night and explaining a bunch of things to me. I think I have my list narrowed down to about 6 mechs right now. They are: Battlemaster, Rifleman, Jagermech, Bushwhacker, Warhammer, and Marauder. I think I want to buy one with C-bills, and possible spend a little cash to buy a Hero version (or maybe a whole 4 pack) of a second one. All of those mechs except for the Battlemaster and Jagermech are on sale right now. So here's the next question: What are your opinions of the hero versions of those mechs, and if you were going to pick one to buy with c-bills and one to buy with cash, which would you do? The key points I want are survivability, decent speed, good ranged damage, and I want to lean towards ballistics, though I'm not opposed to energy weapons, just have to get used to dealing with heat. Thanks!

Another note: You will want a Bushwacker anyway, since Faction Play Scouting requires a medium mech. Which one is debatalbe - some folks run the P2 with 2xLB10+4xML or P1 as a SRM or SSRM boat. I have the latter (SSRMs), as well as an X2 with 2xUAC10 + 2xML (that's 50 points of burst damage on the variant with highest turn rate and fastest torso tracking).

Edited by Horseman, 30 March 2018 - 09:17 AM.

[Koniving]

An example of how what works for one doesn't work for another.
I hear so many do well with the Bushwacker.

I...can't get that thing to work and all but given up on it. The only chickenwalker I can't get to do anything that I want.

I won't oppose the suggestion of the Bushwacker, I have seen it do very well.
...just not in my hands.

I can kill them, but I sure as hell can't use them. Will have to try and give them another chance soon.

(Then again people loved the SHK.. I did not like it, it felt inferior to the Hunchback in every way that mattered. But at least I could make a Shadowhawk work.)

(And that was before quirks, and before the SHK's nerfs.)

[Horseman]

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 08:50 AM, said:

I...can't get that thing to work and all but given up on it. The only chickenwalker I can't get to do anything that I want.
I won't oppose the suggestion of the Bushwacker, I have seen it do very well.
...just not in my hands.
I can kill them, but I sure as hell can't use them. Will have to try and give them another chance soon.

BSW-P1 with 6xSSRM-4, TAG,BAP and LFE270 - no finesse, just raw aggression. Your main concern is positioning and moving through cover where possible (since your range is so short), and woe to anything that gets in your range.

[Rogue Jedi]

Like Koniving I had trouble finding a Bushwacker build which worked for me, which I consider a great shame, I have fond memories of that Mech from earlier Mechwarrior and Mechcommander games

In this game "best" is highly subjective, the best Mech or weapon(s) for you depends on your persional playstyle and preferances, for me best IS Medium is a choice between Griffin, Crab and Cicada ^{(depending on team makeup, map, game mode and weather playing group or solo)}, I can do pretty well with ether, and am less likely to have a bad game in one of those compaired to the other IS medium chassis I have tried ^{(and I think the only IS Medium I have not yet tried is the Kintaro).}

Again for Clans I cannot say there is a "best" medium, I enjoy most and am probably best in Viper, Shadow Cat and Stormcrow, each is built for a completely diferant role.

At current there are about 90 Mech chassis to choose from, and each has at minimum 4 varients ^{(and several with 6+ varients)} meaning probably 400+ varients to choose from, sure some are objectively "better" due to superior quirks or specific pieces of equipment they can bring or arguably superior hardpoints but for those Mechs with an advantage in that certain role there are still going to be alternatives which outclass it in some way so is arguably superior for that role ^{(e.g. the Griffin 2N has ECM, 4 missile hardpoints and 2 energy, the Griffin 3M has the same number of energy and missile hardpoints but no ECM, however thanks to only having 1 E hardpoint on the left it can sacrifice the left side without realy loosing anything, while if the 2N lost its left side it has lost the ECM and 2 missile hardpoints, effectively making the 3M it a lot more durable, and certainly giving it much higher staying power so which is better, I think 3M but plenty would say 2N, nether is wrong)}

Edited by Rogue Jedi, 30 March 2018 - 09:30 AM.

[Eisenhorne]

You guys having trouble with bushwackers, have you tried running any of them with double large ballistics? The double LBX 4 ML P2 build that Horseman mentioned is amazing. You can make a very good 2 UAC 10 build as well. 2 AC10's is also decent, and I've had some fun with a 2 LBX10 / Snub nose PPC build as well. If you want longer range fire, you can even do things like 3 AC5's on the X1, 2 light gauss rifles, or 3 UAC2 builds. The BSW is great as an SRM brawler, but also very powerful as a medium ballistics boat.

[Pylorous]

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 06:33 AM, said:

Oh, since there's a faction play event going on, which is generally easier than group play but harder than solo play... Pylorous do you have Teamspeak or Discord? Gonna use my phone as an alternative headset today since I don't know where my wife put the actual headset. (Considering it was up high, I think the excuse "Baby rawrs found it so I put it up" was just to keep me from talking to players while she slept.

Anyway I need to finish the Capellan tree here for unlocks, and I figure you can use the opportunity to 'grind' for some free mechbays and cbill bonuses as well as get to experience what having 4 lives is like.

God she's so cute. She's stomping around like a mech. Not even two years old yet.

I can set up teamspeak, no problem. I'll probably be on a bit later tonight, wife and I are going to finish up Season one of Westworld, but doing some faction play sounds great. Also, your daughter is adorable.

[Koniving]

"Boom! Boom! Boom! RAWR!"

Sounds good. Got some matches in to try and get some funds. Gonna take a break and play some Battletech (the PC game.) Today's high end for damage was 881 with 1 kill, 2 kill most damage dealts (meaning I did most of the work and someone got them), 3 Savior Kills (when your efforts help player that's about to be slaughtered and prevent his death) and 7 total assists. Four LRM-15s, 2 ATM-6s, and 2 ER MLs. Nova Cat, Night Gyr's little brother.

Had an interesting run with the Power House (roughneck hero 2) stock... It's... it baffles me. I mean it does okay but... Actually I think you were watching using Steam's Watch-thingy. No, no that was the slower-than-molasses 41 kph Jagermech build you watched. (Both of these matches happened to be on the same map, Frozen City so I was kinda mixed up there). (Side note the only reason the Jagermech was that slow is I was cheap on the engine, rather than a proper sized engine of the XL or LFE variety I went with a tiny standard engine due to.. well customizing so many mechs and changing them up often runs ya broke.)

Anyway the Power House looks pretty cool from the cockpit perspective, but the weapon placement has virtually no cohesion. Ironically it would make a great Battletech mech... but a terrible MWO mech as is. I can build around the issue though. Just need the XP to work the skill tree (out of global skill points to use on anything so I have to run this thing to upgrade it).

Out of the two Roughneck heroes, I think the more symmetrical Reaver is on the better side. More... cohesive and less complicated. That said I do think that Power House has a bit more potential.. But this comes at a complexity that either requires simplification (lock the arms, don't bother using them) or a more advanced pilot (one that can manage 4 or more weapon groups or Mixed weapon groups.)

So I'll be around.

Edited by Koniving, 30 March 2018 - 10:23 AM.

[Horseman]

Powerhouse does well with a large ballistic (UAC10, AC20, UAC20) in one shoulder, MRM 30 or 40 in the other, LFE 270-285 (depending on your exact load), Light Ferro. Currently using UAC20 (4.5t ammo), MRM 30 (3t ammo), LFE 280