107 replies to this topic

[Tesunie]

Zergling, on 30 March 2018 - 10:23 PM, said:

When I was playing my Uziel 2S a heap about 2 months ago, one of the builds I found to work reasonably well (or at least, less crappily than other Uziel 2S builds) was 1x UAC10 combined with 2x Light PPC.

It gave me a good amount of flexibility with range, I kinda liked the build.

I've actually been playing that basic build. AC10, two LPPCs and 2 (ER)MLs. Was thinking about trying to remove the lasers for maybe another LPPC, but I don't think it would be an improvement. I use those lasers a lot. I'd love to see how well the combo may work with a HPPC and an AC10... but I already know it wouldn't honestly fit inside a Uziel.

I'd be in that Uziel still if it wasn't for the events running. Sun Spider challenge, then FP challenges...one of which was Clan based... I'll get to use it again later though. (But I do like my Sun Spider with two UAC5s, a HML and two LRM15s. Seem to have to be extra sneaky with that mech to make it work well, with those squishy side torsos and all...)

[Zergling]

Tesunie, on 30 March 2018 - 10:34 PM, said:

I've actually been playing that basic build. AC10, two LPPCs and 2 (ER)MLs. Was thinking about trying to remove the lasers for maybe another LPPC, but I don't think it would be an improvement. I use those lasers a lot. I'd love to see how well the combo may work with a HPPC and an AC10... but I already know it wouldn't honestly fit inside a Uziel.

It can, but you'll only have 2 tons of ammo and no jumpjets with a 250LFE.

If you ran triple LPPC instead, you'd fit in another half ton of ammo and a single jumpjet.

Tesunie, on 30 March 2018 - 10:34 PM, said:

(But I do like my Sun Spider with two UAC5s, a HML and two LRM15s. Seem to have to be extra sneaky with that mech to make it work well, with those squishy side torsos and all...)

I found I liked 1x Gauss + 2x Large Pulse the most on the Sun Spider (although I could easily drop the extra heatsinks for a TarComp or something).

[Koniving]

Zergling, on 30 March 2018 - 09:26 PM, said:

LBX can't do bonus damage from crits unless they hit structure, so that sort of one shot kill is only possible if the "rear torso takes damage while shooting front torso" glitch/feature happened.

Am aware, given that those matches were plagued with those during the UAC versus LBX testing, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what happened which is why I mentioned it. After all I'd get rear damage while face to face in every single one of those matches as the Rifleman. So much so that I'd almost swear it was a feature of UAC/2s. Short of some other amazing feat, it seems inexplicable how the kill could have happened. But never the less it did, and with it went all hope for Solaris VII possibly fixing much of the damage vomit by reducing maximum heat significantly... as the build barely heated the guy up. Heck provided the weight, the speed to get in close, and the luck of the draw, it'd probably wipe a laser vomit meta out of the park.

Though UAC/10s tend to get really hot... which from testing seems to be largely due in part to ghost heat triggering on double taps of twin UAC/10s... the only issue was four UAC/2s and aggressive play. Having to be close to 600 meters to effectively be able to maintain consistent hits, the compounded issues of losing a massive amount of maximum heat, cooling power and speed on an already slow design when losing a side torso only exasperate the issue further. Trading two UAC/2s for twin AC/2s did wonders on mitigating that heat.

Night before last I was playing as a 41 kph Jagermech (engine cheapness) with twin LBX5 and twin RAC/2s. Did really well but without those nodes, could have easily gotten more kills and damage than I did. Still out of several matches it was the best one I had. But definitely never use LBX without the spread nodes. Though I know you're a big proponent of don't use them ever.

In our time in faction play, had some meh luck but when I rolled my Heavy Metal in there, got twin solo kills and 5 "kill most damage", which I know I didn't get with the other mechs as most of them barely managed 100 damage due to various reasons. Marauder did a bit better at the end, but 5 against 1 because the team went piecemeal one guy at a time through that gate. But LBX-10, RAC/2, 3 ML, 2 Streak SRM-2, between 800 and 900 damage. So while many might shun RAC and LBX, there's some merits to be had. I had tried the UAC/2, too hot. The AC/2 I used to use, still had to let off the DPS more than I would have liked. Single RAC/2 jams before it produces any serious heat and does decent damage in the mean time.

Far as Crabs and XLs, long as the enemies stay in front of you it's all good. Much like a Marauder, just twist 15 to 20 degrees to spread damage. Issue comes if they broadside you and for whatever reason you can't turn to face them. (Using a Rifleman, I had a situation where I was engaging people in front of me when I kept getting hit from behind, so I twisted just enough to turn my head, sure enough 2 mediums behind me sporting lasers and ACs. Then there's the assault and two heavies in front of me. Yep, nope, just straightened the torso, hit override and fired til I died. Ain't no way out of that, A similar situation where you "can't" turn would be the bait situation, where a squirrel runs by to get your attention away from a target you've almost killed which if you do then you are killed and if you don't turn, you will probably die just a little later than if you turned around.)

I personally avoid the suggestion of an XL Crab as...one why would you need it unless boating large lasers or using the hero? Two finances.... since a Crab is among the mechs I like to suggest to new players when considering many things including initial prep costs, well you avoid the 'extra' costs to give a new player the simplest bang for their buck as well as room to improve and build on later. So from my perspective the reason I nudge new players toward Standard engine Crabs is for how kind they are on the cbills. Solid mech, good speed, minimal costs to make viable in MWO's environment. Still prefer the Hunchback personally but that's because I like the more urgent 'umph' of Autocannons.

[Eisenhorne]

Pylorous, on 30 March 2018 - 07:04 PM, said:

So I ended up getting a standard Warhammer pack, and grabbed the Black Widow Hero while I was at it. Combing through build ideas right now. What are your faves? I'll probably pick up another chassis soon, but need to start grinding out c-bill and XP in the WHM for now...

OK, so black widow builds...

One of the best is the UAC10 + 2 UAC5 build, here: https://mwo.smurfy-n...0f82f4a0d477be8 Probably has the highest raw damage per second here, but you have to stare at the enemy the entire time, so it's kinda hard.

You could also run it with 2 UAC 10's, like this: https://mwo.smurfy-n...ebf0c3e48689618 It's a bit faster, but doesn't have as much firepower. I threw an AMS on it because I had some extra room, since I normally run this on a WHM-6R with 4 ML in the torso. A general rule of thumb I like to use with UAC's is that 2x of a smaller UAC is better than the bigger one. So 2x UAC 2 > 1x UAC5, 2x UAC5 > 1x UAC 10, etc.

One of the classics is the GuassHammer build, like this: https://mwo.smurfy-n...201971458bdaff1 The WHM-6R does it better, because you can actually take a little less armor / ammo, and have 4 ER mediums in the torso. You don't want to use the arms because you need to strip the armor off them to make room for heavier guns.

I'd probably go with the UAC 10 + 2 UAC5 one myself, because as far as I know it's the only Inner Sphere heavy that can run a build like that, making it pretty unique. The WHM-6R does the other builds better because of it's better torso hardpoints.

Edited by Eisenhorne, 30 March 2018 - 11:13 PM.

[Koniving]

Completely unrelated so I hope it doesn't attach itself to the earlier post.. I mentioned Nova Cats in passing and meant to give a shot of them... but then completely forgot.


These have quickly become a new favorite of mine. They perform exceptionally well, quite consistently, and are among the very few mechs I have named.
(The first is supposed to be Eviction Notice but limited character length).
Left to right.
4 LRM-15s + 2 ATM-6 + 2 ER ML.
2 ER PPCs, 3 LPL. (Slightly hot)
4 ER LL.

I love the reactions I get with the third one.

[Koniving]

I'll have to try some of the Uziel builds. I quickly learned that trying to use all the hardpoints...just wasn't gonna happen on the Uziel. Thing seems very fragile.

Surprised at a Gauss ER Large Laser combo for the sunspider. It makes sense it just is surprising.
Need to consider looking at the free hero Sunspider I was given. Just can't shake the "Its a fat Locust" vibe off.

[justcallme A S H]

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

Li Song has a mech lab.

Beyond that, not really. Metamechs was run by competition players, and once competitions began having money involved, they stopped sharing any of their top builds and any recent updates, despite saying that they are high end mechs, are pretty easily countered. This is because if you want to be at the top of a competition, you give away the less than stellar but still better than most builds... This ensures people will A) use them, and B ) be built exactly as you want them to be built so that C ) you can easily dissect them by exploiting the weaknesses you had built into them, so that D ) you can reap the rewards and the cash.

Many "low level" contributions are genuine, some, particularly by the highest end players, are cleverly described death traps.

Figure this to be true: SRMs, good. Multiple ACs, generally good-ish (fast kills for a bit of spammery). Laser vomit...unfortunately,king. There's few builds that beat it, one of them is apparently twin LBX-20 with lots of SRM-6s + Artemis. Encountered that once, never had a more humiliating one shot against an Annihilator.

.....To mention, the Annihilator is one of the IS's most heavily armored 100 ton mechs.
....One shotted.
By CT.
Holy.
****.

That was in a one versus one match, too.

Please take off the tin foil hat.

As a user with a custom title from PGI 'Welcoming Committee' you should not be...

1. Spreading likes and conspiracies
2. Giving knowingly and constantly wrong advice.
3. Accusing people of exploiting the game


All of this does not paint a good picture. Plus it's not accurate, it's just plain lies.

Hopefully other people report your post cause that stuff is just not good enough.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 31 March 2018 - 04:53 AM.

[justcallme A S H]

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

Am aware, given that those matches were plagued with those during the UAC versus LBX testing, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what happened which is why I mentioned it. After all I'd get rear damage while face to face in every single one of those matches as the Rifleman. So much so that I'd almost swear it was a feature of UAC/2s.

What happened in the UAC vs LBX games was you were decisively beaten. In fact the LBX2 we're that bad you didn't even win a game.
You should be admitting you got beaten and were comprehensively wrong... Not now trying to say it was a bug.

Once again, just misleading.

[Zergling]

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

Am aware, given that those matches were plagued with those during the UAC versus LBX testing, I wouldn't be surprised if that's exactly what happened which is why I mentioned it. After all I'd get rear damage while face to face in every single one of those matches as the Rifleman. So much so that I'd almost swear it was a feature of UAC/2s. Short of some other amazing feat, it seems inexplicable how the kill could have happened. But never the less it did

I've seen the occasional weird occurrence with front hits doing damage to rear, and I have a couple theories as to how it could occur.

1: Badly done rear torso hitboxes being visible from the front (IIRC, that has happened with a few mechs, not sure if the Annihilator is one of them)
2: Hitboxes lagging during torso twist, in a mech where torso twisting exposes rear torso (not sure if Annihilator is one of those either).
3: Legitimate bug in the hit registration system, where a frontal hit is registered as a hit to the rear.

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

Though UAC/10s tend to get really hot... which from testing seems to be largely due in part to ghost heat triggering on double taps of twin UAC/10s...

Could be, although I admit to being clueless when it comes to heat bugs.

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 11:07 PM, said:

Far as Crabs and XLs, long as the enemies stay in front of you it's all good. Much like a Marauder, just twist 15 to 20 degrees to spread damage. Issue comes if they broadside you and for whatever reason you can't turn to face them.

If the enemy is patient or an excellent snap shot, they'll be able to pinpoint a side torso from the front.
But most players don't have the skill to do that at range, even in Tier 1 matches.

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 11:22 PM, said:

I'll have to try some of the Uziel builds. I quickly learned that trying to use all the hardpoints...just wasn't gonna happen on the Uziel. Thing seems very fragile.

Surprised at a Gauss ER Large Laser combo for the sunspider. It makes sense it just is surprising.
Need to consider looking at the free hero Sunspider I was given. Just can't shake the "Its a fat Locust" vibe off.

I find the Uziel to be one of the most fragile mechs in the game; it honestly needs its structure quirks swapped to armor, then tripled in value.
And trying to find working builds for it has been... quite frustrating. I think energy based builds would work best with it, but only one variant has the hardpoints for it (and honestly 6 isn't enough).

Gauss is risky on the Sunspider thanks to how easily the side torsos are pinpointed, although if you have the D omnipods you can put the Gauss in the arms and negate that risk.
But I find it still works well, probably because I'm trying to minimise exposure times by hill and corner poking.

Edited by Zergling, 30 March 2018 - 11:45 PM.

[Toast3r]

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

Li Song has a mech lab.

Beyond that, not really. Metamechs was run by competition players, and once competitions began having money involved, they stopped sharing any of their top builds and any recent updates, despite saying that they are high end mechs, are pretty easily countered. This is because if you want to be at the top of a competition, you give away the less than stellar but still better than most builds... This ensures people will A) use them, and B ) be built exactly as you want them to be built so that C ) you can easily dissect them by exploiting the weaknesses you had built into them, so that D ) you can reap the rewards and the cash.

Many "low level" contributions are genuine, some, particularly by the highest end players, are cleverly described death traps.

Figure this to be true: SRMs, good. Multiple ACs, generally good-ish (fast kills for a bit of spammery). Laser vomit...unfortunately,king. There's few builds that beat it, one of them is apparently twin LBX-20 with lots of SRM-6s + Artemis. Encountered that once, never had a more humiliating one shot against an Annihilator.

.....To mention, the Annihilator is one of the IS's most heavily armored 100 ton mechs.
....One shotted.
By CT.
Holy.
****.

That was in a one versus one match, too.

This is amusing.

Have you ever talked to Gman (the creator of metamechs)? Have you tried asking why he stopped updating the site? The real reason is that real life happened, and he no longer plays the game like he used to. Updating such a large and informative site alone takes a lot of time (particularly with how many updates there are), and there's hardly enough traffic to make it a career.

Also, your accusation that high end players recommend bad builds to new players is hilarious. I'd come up with a rebuttal. You haven't actually shown any proof of that occurring, and I'm having a hard enough time stopping laughing in order to write this as it is.

[denAirwalkerrr]

Koniving, on 30 March 2018 - 06:12 AM, said:

Li Song has a mech lab.

Beyond that, not really. Metamechs was run by competition players, and once competitions began having money involved, they stopped sharing any of their top builds and any recent updates, despite saying that they are high end mechs, are pretty easily countered. This is because if you want to be at the top of a competition, you give away the less than stellar but still better than most builds... This ensures people will A) use them, and B ) be built exactly as you want them to be built so that C ) you can easily dissect them by exploiting the weaknesses you had built into them, so that D ) you can reap the rewards and the cash.

Many "low level" contributions are genuine, some, particularly by the highest end players, are cleverly described death traps

Probably you should browse MWO related sites to see how things actually are.

https://docs.google....h_gI/edit#gid=0

[Pylorous]

Eisenhorne, on 30 March 2018 - 11:11 PM, said:

OK, so black widow builds...

One of the best is the UAC10 + 2 UAC5 build, here: https://mwo.smurfy-n...0f82f4a0d477be8 Probably has the highest raw damage per second here, but you have to stare at the enemy the entire time, so it's kinda hard.

You could also run it with 2 UAC 10's, like this: https://mwo.smurfy-n...ebf0c3e48689618 It's a bit faster, but doesn't have as much firepower. I threw an AMS on it because I had some extra room, since I normally run this on a WHM-6R with 4 ML in the torso. A general rule of thumb I like to use with UAC's is that 2x of a smaller UAC is better than the bigger one. So 2x UAC 2 > 1x UAC5, 2x UAC5 > 1x UAC 10, etc.

One of the classics is the GuassHammer build, like this: https://mwo.smurfy-n...201971458bdaff1 The WHM-6R does it better, because you can actually take a little less armor / ammo, and have 4 ER mediums in the torso. You don't want to use the arms because you need to strip the armor off them to make room for heavier guns.

I'd probably go with the UAC 10 + 2 UAC5 one myself, because as far as I know it's the only Inner Sphere heavy that can run a build like that, making it pretty unique. The WHM-6R does the other builds better because of it's better torso hardpoints.

Thanks Eisenhorn. I've been hearing about a couple other builds too, one being 4xAC5 and the other is 2XAC5 +2XUAC5. I'll have to put one of them together and go run around QP for a while.

To everyone else, especially a few latecomers who haven't contributed anything to the thread's original intent; I'm surprised at the amount of bickering. This community is supposed to be one of the more relaxed and welcoming ones. Don't show new players the worst side of things. If you have something useful to contribute, please do. Otherwise, please take your arguments elsewhere.

[Koniving]

Toast3r, on 31 March 2018 - 12:18 AM, said:

This is amusing.

Have you ever talked to Gman (the creator of metamechs)? Have you tried asking why he stopped updating the site? The real reason is that real life happened, and he no longer plays the game like he used to. Updating such a large and informative site alone takes a lot of time (particularly with how many updates there are), and there's hardly enough traffic to make it a career.

Also, your accusation that high end players recommend bad builds to new players is hilarious. I'd come up with a rebuttal. You haven't actually shown any proof of that occurring, and I'm having a hard enough time stopping laughing in order to write this as it is.

Last I knew players contribute to the site in a similar way that players upload builds to Smurfy and give their own reviews, votes, etc.`. Why have people stopped uploading new builds?
Why have players stopped giving their own build theories and potential uses?

One player I trained uploaded a Hunchback build that was a slightly modified one of one that I use. He showed it to me, it had his own theory crafting and comments from others.

Has the site changed since then? If not, then the site should update like a forum whenever someone adds a new build.
Contributions from players new and old, skilled and novice, should still be happening then regardless of whether the creator takes a hiatus. Unless something changed.

[justcallme A S H]

Koniving, on 31 March 2018 - 04:22 AM, said:

Last I knew players contribute to the site in a similar way that players upload builds to Smurfy and give their own reviews, votes, etc.`. Why have people stopped uploading new builds?
Why have players stopped giving their own build theories and potential uses?

One player I trained uploaded a Hunchback build that was a slightly modified one of one that I use. He showed it to me, it had his own theory crafting and comments from others.

Has the site changed since then? If not, then the site should update like a forum whenever someone adds a new build.
Contributions from players new and old, skilled and novice, should still be happening then regardless of whether the creator takes a hiatus. Unless something changed.

As usual. You have no idea what you are talking about. Hopefully Pylorus sees through and gets actual (proper) answers.

Metamechs.com was GMans own project and probably did get some input from players around the place. Pretty sure he gave up around d the time of Skill Maze as real life and the fact skill maze made many good players give up. You did not submit your own builds there.

You are talking about Mechspecs.com... A site, which, generally have plenty of extremely bad builds on it. Stuff that fits right into what you tell new users incidentally. There are some good ones but they are usually few and far between. That site still exists and is not run by the elite in some conspiracy to mislead new players... You mislead them plenty well enough on your own.

For the good of the community please stop the mistrustful and misleading posts. You must know you're doing it.

Edited by justcallme A S H, 31 March 2018 - 01:42 PM.

[Koniving]

denAirwalkerrr, on 31 March 2018 - 01:28 AM, said:

Probably you should browse MWO related sites to see how things actually are.

https://docs.google....h_gI/edit#gid=0

Your sheet lists mechs and rates most of them specifically by a single build, and a single skill tree. If you have difficulty and lack of fun using the build, why not expand on say, other builds? Other skill trees?

Surprised you rated the Dragons so high, most people tend to rate them quite terribly, for a long time Meta Mechs had them among the worst mechs imaginable. So you get kudos for that.

Of the sample I tried, a few of them are pretty good; thought it was funny that one of them is almost identical to my own build from 3 years ago updated with a couple of new weapons. Some of these though, you've got left over tonnage (Yen Lo Wang) for no apparent reason, and unprotected ammunition (meaning that ************* is gonna explode in an absolutely terrible way which gives me an idea as to why you have it rated difficult and unfun. With several builds, that poor thing would be rated a fair bit higher but that basic 2012 metamech build basically was terrible back in the day let alone now.)

Why do the Temptest with 4 ML, 2 on the CT? I see you 'shield armed' the one side, but this means you have no cohesion between the lasers in case of having to deal with a fast threat. Almost like it is jinxed against lights (MRM hit detection against fast targets is terrible for me, don't know how it is for you).

The other Tempest build looks like mad fun. Would never give it to a newer player, but basically you've built a bomber.

The Protector build is perhaps the worst thing I had ever seen. It's a 75 ton Atlas, why would you make an Atlas K out of it? Then again Zergling said he had weird success with ER LL and Gauss. Just seems like an unnecessarily convoluted mess, and a terrible idea since its a long range peeking build with a mech that has the peaking ability of a tub of lard that's hurled at enemies. At least on the Sun Spider it makes sense, high points. Your build concept to judge the mech by is basically playing Limbo on a tall mech to snipe with. Who the hell snipes while standing up and firing from the goddamn hip!? It's a brawler damn it! Judge it for what it is! Turn it into a 75 ton Atlas and you'll find yourself rating it a LOT better.

The Boar's Head build is just a trivial bit of suicide. It was the first thing I did, and I quickly learned I was better off with 6 ML or 4 pulse lasers. I settled on 4 pulse lasers, a couple of tags to make sure that they performed well (invisible walls were terrible at the time). Hell just a minor tweak, and I got it to a 380 LFE, 55% efficiency (basically never have to stop shooting ever), and now you can completely ignore ghost heat. (Who puts endo steel in an assault mech?)

I give you La Malanche, it's a terrible mech. Design seems decent for it (by why so high on the head armor? In all the time the banshees have been out, never been headshot. Could have funnelled that to the arms). With its lack of turning/twisting ability, though, ya might want more rear armor...

And Misery, I agree it makes a great rushing mech.... But you have no defense against range, the positioning has got to be perfect, and with no bleed over for weapons you basically have an oven that relies on a quick kill to survive, it has no thermal endurance, you're relying far too heavily on the flukes of the mech's design to carry you after you shut down or on friends to protect you. Don't get me wrong it takes amazing abuse, but... literally if you don't play like this...


(That is sneak within 90 meters of the enemy completely undetected, get their attention with a volley of missiles, and say hi with an alpha to their head). Then that build...basically has the Misery completely useless.

And sure, I can pull that off...rarely... but most people can't. Why not suggest a build that takes advantage of the Misery as a weapons platform, in addition to being a battering ram? Weapons that can hammer in close while still being useful at more than say, oh I dunno 270 or less meters? Get the Misery in that close without softening the enemy first and you're just gonna get surrounded. It isn't a flamer stalker! It has no endurance. You can't pull that off easily and expect players of most skill ranges to be able do the same.

I'd ask that you both own the mechs in question or get a larger sample size before judging them... and try more builds. 3 at minimum. Preferably 5 to 7 for a decent sample size.

[Koniving]

Skaav, on 31 March 2018 - 04:34 AM, said:

Ur talking about Mechspeccs, not MetaMechs Mr. Welcoming Comittee, which is 100% playermade builds with no editorializing at all. But i can see how investing 20 seconds to open 2 pages in your browser can be too much work before spewing some nonsense.

Redacted

Thank you for the correction.

Probably because I've been helping people with the game since closed beta and was recognized for it, among many "helpful post of the month" for the first three years? Talked about as that guy that helped out among the moderators so that moderators I had never seen before would recognize me and randomly praise me (while leaving me scared shitless like "Why is a moderator sending me messages? Did I do something?" Nope, here's free time as a thank you for this or that.)
This is the first time I ever seen your name despite how long you've been here. Have you contributed any? Helped anyone? Turned people around from rage quitting and uninstalling when they just couldn't figure something out? Assisted a player in making the most of their purchase, or if they couldn't, in how they could get a refund on it? Been asked to become a moderator? (I turned it down.)

I haven't seen or used those sites since 2014, because back then the meta craze kept getting new players to rage quit the game. They would make a build with it and then couldn't figure out how to make it work, or couldn't meet the conditions required for it to work. Twin AC/20... and they try to snipe with it because of the lack of information on it. Well why aren't big cannons shooting farther, that's what they do... Yeah.. PGI made them big cannons. Their mech building source, usually a player just dropping the link to some random meta build that was "awesome" saying "Do this," with no real explanation. This would leave me on damage control trying to salvage players because some complete morons would give these builds without any explanation, without knowing that these new players would have NO skills or knowledge or know-how or that they might not even grasp the basic concept of "You're a set of legs with a turret." Just stuff that goes in one ear and out the other with the poor guys... Even today you canlook through some threads, person with a blue name posted 9 months ago, people are still spamming random tips and info, the guy hasn't been back yet he dropped the game with information overload and lack of engagement, no one asked him anything they just spammed tips and info to force the player along their line of thinking.

Players don't seem to consider that the new person is a person, whom is a different person from you or me., and that they may function differently, may find fun in different things. As an example, Yahtzee from No Punctuation finds games where you clean up corpses to be fun! Why? Who the hell knows? I don't find cleaning to be fun. But he does.

My point is I treat people like people, I try to help them like people. I give my opinions, I let them compare things, and they go with what they like. Not what I want them to have. Not what you want them to have. They will find what they enjoy and it will be whatever they want it to be. Not what we force upon them. As such sites like MetaMechs are unnecessary. Spamming builds that exploit the game's already terrible mechanics can suck the fun out of the game, making it a monotonous chore instead of a fun game to play and experience. It complicates and convolutes an already complex game with little depth to reward the effort it takes.

You don't walk into a Men's Warehouse to buy a generic one size fits all suit, complete with cuffs too loose, high waters showing your socks while you stand, shoulders too narrow and cramped, etc. You go there to get a suit tailor made to suit you. Why go into a help section to get a generic one size fits some mech design? You're there to get a mech design tailored to suit your needs, your skill level, your abilities. So why send them to a site to have them look at generic designs tailored to meet specific demands of OTHER individuals and not the specific needs/wants of the person looking for help?

Edited by poopenshire, 01 April 2018 - 04:43 PM.

[Bombast]

Skaav, on 31 March 2018 - 04:34 AM, said:

Ur talking about Mechspeccs, not MetaMechs Mr. Welcoming Comittee, which is 100% playermade builds with no editorializing at all. But i can see how investing 20 seconds to open 2 pages in your browser can be too much work before spewing some nonsense.

Redacted

Skaav, on 31 March 2018 - 04:34 AM, said:

Redacted

Can we start a petition to have Koniving's titles removed?

Edited by poopenshire, 01 April 2018 - 04:44 PM.

[Rogue Jedi]

Skaav, on 31 March 2018 - 04:34 AM, said:

Redacted

because he is the longest standing member of the new player help comunity and probably the most helpful persion who frequents this forum, this is from someone who (last 2 months not withstanding) has been trying to help people here reguraly since 2014, Koniving has been arround on this forum much longer than I have and has given helpful advice to probably more than 90% of people who have requested help here.

Like everyone (myself included) he does occaisionaly make mistakes but the vast majority of Koniving's posts are accurate and aimed at helping someone.

Edited by poopenshire, 01 April 2018 - 04:44 PM.

[Skaav]

Koniving, on 31 March 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:

Probably because I've been helping people with the game since closed beta and was recognized for it, among many "helpful post of the month" for the first three years? Talked about as that guy that helped out among the moderators so that moderators I had never seen before would recognize me and randomly praise me (while leaving me scared shitless like "Why is a moderator sending me messages? Did I do something?" Nope, here's free time as a thank you for this or that.)
This is the first time I ever seen your name despite how long you've been here. Have you contributed any? Helped anyone? Turned people around from rage quitting and uninstalling when they just couldn't figure something out? Assisted a player in making the most of their purchase, or if they couldn't, in how they could get a refund on it? Been asked to become a moderator? (I turned it down.)

One thing i also havent done is making up bugs to excuse how bad I am, as somebody titled "Welcoming Comittee".

My lack of content doesnt justify your bad advice, and people like you keep me away from this place.

I mean, Reddit is bad, no doubt, but its a heck of a lot better then these forums, where people come for help, and out of lazyness people like you, who basically shitpost as a serious profession, are put into places of power.

And lets stop deflecting btw, we are all here because you are saying good players are willfully misleading new players into bad builds, while you post some of the most horrendeous garbage mechs in the world.

How I can say that your Builds are garbage with certainty?

Well, I earned my title in game, not in these forums.

Edited by Skaav, 31 March 2018 - 07:56 AM.

[Xiphias]

Koniving, on 31 March 2018 - 05:20 AM, said:

Thank you for the correction.

I'd ask that you edit your previous post to make it clear that the narrative you were pushing earlier about meta mechs and comp players was/is completely false. Spreading misinformation benefits no one and it's particularly bad when it's new players you are giving these ideas.

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I haven't seen or used those sites since 2014, because back then the meta craze kept getting new players to rage quit the game. They would make a build with it and then couldn't figure out how to make it work, or couldn't meet the conditions required for it to work. Twin AC/20... and they try to snipe with it because of the lack of information on it. Well why aren't big cannons shooting farther, that's what they do... Yeah.. PGI made them big cannons. Their mech building source, usually a player just dropping the link to some random meta build that was "awesome" saying "Do this," with no real explanation.

First, metamechs has always been by a single player (GMan) which is what made it good. It was filtered and editorialized such that you knew it was coming from a competent source. While the builds on the site weren't an end all be all, they were/are a great starting point for building a good mech and by far the best resource the game had.

Further, metamechs went out of its way to explain have to build a setup mechs and the reason behind it, e.g. Building Mechs (Intermediary) and Building a Competitive Mech. While these are somewhat outdated now, they still have a lot of really good information. GMan even included LRM builds on his metamechs site, even though he admitted hates them. That's how unbiased he was in trying to make the site.

If you aren't knowledgable about the site (by your own admission) then don't talk about it and in particular, don't spread completely wrong and slanderous claims about it. It's okay not to know something, but it's not okay to act like you do when you really have no idea.

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As such sites like MetaMechs are unnecessary. Spamming builds that exploit the game's already terrible mechanics can suck the fun out of the game, making it a monotonous chore instead of a fun game to play and experience. It complicates and convolutes an already complex game with little depth to reward the effort it takes.

Metamechs is a tool and when it was current, the best at what it did (probably still is). It exists as a reference for players who choose to use it as to what builds/mechs are most effective in a given meta. Make no mistake, the meta exists regardless. What metamechs did was make it easier for new players to learn what the meta was. Good/competitive players already know what the meta is, other than for convenience they really don't need the site. What the site does is let new players much more quickly learn what good/competitive players already know.

In particular, the competitive builds section was a great tool. While not everyone wants to play competitive leagues, it's a huge hurdle to get into. The builds and strategies used can vary quiet a bit from standard solo play (FW to a lesser extent). Where are they going to learn the builds that are viable in comp? Here on the forums? From you? From watching hours and hours of competitive matches and trying to glean what builds are used?

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You don't walk into a Men's Warehouse to buy a generic one size fits all suit, complete with cuffs too loose, high waters showing your socks while you stand, shoulders too narrow and cramped, etc. You go there to get a suit tailor made to suit you. Why go into a help section to get a generic one size fits some mech design? You're there to get a mech design tailored to suit your needs, your skill level, your abilities. So why send them to a site to have them look at generic designs tailored to meet specific demands of OTHER individuals and not the specific needs/wants of the person looking for help?

You also don't walk into a Men's warehouse and have your suit made from scratch. You buy a mass produced generic suit in the size that's closest to you and then they make slight adjustments to it so that it fits you better. It's a exactly the same with something like metamechs. It lets you pick a "suit" for the role you want and then you can take that build and tailor it to fit you more exactly (e.g. adding 1 ton of ammo, heatsinks, AMS, etc). It's faster and more cost effective to have the base finished and then to make small changes than it is to start from scratch and design a completely new "suit" every time.

Rogue Jedi, on 31 March 2018 - 07:30 AM, said:

because he is the longest standing member of the new player help comunity and probably the most helpful persion who frequents this forum, this is from someone who (last 2 months not withstanding) has been trying to help people here reguraly since 2014, Koniving has been arround on this forum much longer than I have and has given helpful advice to probably more than 90% of people who have requested help here.

Like everyone (myself included) he does occaisionaly make mistakes but the vast majority of Koniving's posts are accurate and aimed at helping someone.

While I'll agree that Koniving tries to be helpful and that not all of the information he gives new players is bad, he also has positions that he tries to push that are simply wrong, and new players don't have the experience to discern between the two.

Worst is pushing false narratives like the idea that the competitive players are actively trying to sabotage new players by intentionally giving them bad builds with known weaknesses so that they can kill them more easily. This is patently false and does a real disservice to the competitive players who are investing a lot of time and effort in trying to help new players. It also tries to sow seeds of distrust in new players against competitive players giving advice. Advice that more often than not is going to go against the position that Koniving is pushing.

While it's great that the two of you are trying to help new players consistently you also run the risk of stunting new player's growth if you give them bad information.