281 replies to this topic

[Eisenhorne]

yrrot, on 03 April 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

They're good against assaults when they get behind them. But that's also what light mechs should be good at. It's definitely annoying to have one on your back when you're already engaged.

The problem with it is that it outshines almost all other lights and a number of lighter medium mechs. How well does a mist lynx hold up against the piranha? Those nice, boxy arms full of guns are just asking to get crit out in a hurry. Meanwhile the piranha has a fairly slim torso that splashes damage that gets put on it and arms that are just there to be blown off.

Again, though, being the best of the weakest weight class doesn't mean it needs a nerf. It can just as easily mean that lights need some love and more incentive to play them. Of course, we'll see how crazy the game is when it's out for C-Bills.

As long as the flea is as viable as the piranha, fine, leave it alone.

[naterist]

Jman5, on 03 April 2018 - 08:14 AM, said:

Nerfing machine gun crit chance so that only the piranha can effectively crit is just a giant nerf to every single machine gun mech that isn't the piranha. Also you say let it keep its damage, but machine gun damage is HEAVILY based on crit chance. You alter crit chance at all and damage will go down. Crit seeking weapons like the machine guns do special extra damage to the mech (not just components) when they roll crit.

I'm just going to quote what I wrote up in the last piranha OP thread since you bring up the locust.



Anyone who is terrified of crit chance really needs to re-examine the builds they are running. Can you improve your crit-padding. Have you considered playing Inner Sphere mechs with max Reinforced Casing skills. IS gear has more hitpoints than Clan gear. If that's not enough there are mechs with reduced crit-chance quirks (there are 11 of them). Also invest in Seismic sensor skills to catch that sneaky piranha trying to backshot you.

Ya, so the problem isnt crit DAMAGE, its crits removing all weapons on an otherwise totally healthy mech. Its damage output isnt really at issue here. It isnt even THAT high when you think about it. They could just as easily double or triple all component health and id be happy.

[Darian DelFord]

The below will illustrate my point and I think some others. This is a match I have been waiting to get on video for a while in actual combat situation. So Escort mode was the perfect way to do this and it finally happened yesterday.

I personally have 12 MG's with 9600 rounds of ammo on my piranha. Everyone keeps say OP OP OP but yet I have not seen ONE video that shows a piranha going head to head with an assault mech that knows what he is doing... ie... backing into a corner.... covering lanes of fire.... so forth and so on. Most of the vids you see are Piranha's using their strengths vs the enemy mechs weakness... so with that in mind the below video

I started with 9600 rounds and ended with 5328 rounds and expended 4272 rounds.

In the fight I took out 2 turrets as well the the VIP mech with help. As you will see MOST of my shots land on target and SHOULD be counted.... I stress should because well PGI Hit Reg.

I did a total of 374 points of damage. Meaning each MG round is worth .0875ish ( extremely close estimate) damage.

With the above and 12 MG's that puts it at 1.05ish (again above) damage per MG round. Which puts it at the 12 DPS model that is touted around.

Now as you will see HOW close a light HAS TO BE to get maximum effect under 140 meters. So many assaults even in this thread think we can do this damage at 200 to 400 meters... Simply put Piranhas CAN NOT. For it to be put to maximum effect we have to be under 140 meters. Think about that for a second..... no seriously think about it.

Now Most builds using straight up MG's will have a maximum damage capacity of 840 points of stragiht MG Round damage.... UNDER 140 METERS. This means we have to be well within LOS and able to HIT everything that we aim at. Which lets face it, with the amount of movement that happens DOES NOT Happen.

Once again.... here is hard evidence that proves my point.... yet NO evidence is being shown to show that they are OP

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 April 2018 - 08:34 AM.

[GabrielSun]

DiabetesOverlord Wilford Brimley, on 03 April 2018 - 08:03 AM, said:

Just hide properly when I’m trying to hit you with a 80 point alpha.

See how that just shoot better mentally works?

I really don't know what point you're trying to make here. Did you just feel personally offended at my comment that people need to learn how to shoot if they can't kill a 24 armour mech? Maybe it pointed out a flaw in your ability?

You're commenting that it is flawed thinking to avoid getting shot and/or damaged while shooting other mechs, when it is the entire point of the game. If you can't shoot a light with your 80 pt alpha then you deserve to get wrecked by MGs while it literally stands there for up to 4 or 5 seconds while trying to crit your components.

[naterist]

GabrielSun, on 03 April 2018 - 08:40 AM, said:

I really don't know what point you're trying to make here. Did you just feel personally offended at my comment that people need to learn how to shoot if they can't kill a 24 armour mech? Maybe it pointed out a flaw in your ability?

You're commenting that it is flawed thinking to avoid getting shot and/or damaged while shooting other mechs, when it is the entire point of the game. If you can't shoot a light with your 80 pt alpha then you deserve to get wrecked by MGs while it literally stands there for up to 4 or 5 seconds while trying to crit your components.

What teir are you in were the pirahnas just stand still for 4-5 seconds, i wanna play in that teir too

[Big MO]

I disagree with nerf'ing the pirahna or even machine guns in general for that matter. It sucks to get stripped by them, but they are an effective counter to all of the ERLL, HLL/ERML boats running around that want to poke & fade with 80 point alphas and 4 back armor. If allowed, enough mechs like the pirahna can force a change to the meta, cause people to have to put some armor on their back, carry a streak launcher or a couple short duration pulse lasers instead of those extra heat sinks, invest in seismic or a UAV instead of max'ing the cool shots. Fix agility on the assaults, but leave the piranha right where it is - this game needs more than just mid-long range laser vomit.

[Mystere]

Bud Crue, on 03 April 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

Anyway, I guarantee the Piranha and/or Machine Guns will be getting a nerf. Deserved or not. Its coming.

And that sums up in a nutshell the very tragic life of this game and why it never achieved its full potential. Too much time, effort, money, and other very limited resources were spent on so-called "balance" above all else.

Hell! For all I know, it was probably deviously intentional. The more players constantly ***** and moan about balance, the bigger "excuse" there is to "fix" balance over working on anything else.

Edited by Mystere, 03 April 2018 - 09:22 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Seismic is useless if you're moving, which you really should be. It also only has a 200 meter range, and once the Piranha is in 200 meters of your back you're already dead.

So here you're talking about a moving target and a Piranha running at full speed that manages to stay on target with a single zone for at least a full 1.0X seconds with all his lasers (to inflict full laser damage) while doing a max of 6 - 8 points of machine gun damage which it spreads over at least all three torso zones if not arms or legs as well. The former damage only if cSML are used and the latter only if you have extended machine gun range to at least 260 max range.
The fun part there being that the more sucessful PIR-1 builds seem to favor cHSML or er-micro in addition to players like Darian DelFord who seem to forego lasers entirely.

Now a single ermicro will do about 0.8 damage at that 200m marker while the cHSML will be at about 1.3 and the pure machine gun version only doing those aforementioned 6-8 points over at least 3 zones.

So let's run those numbers against ...

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

... of course? Even if it has 12 back armor (high for an assault) the lasers the Piranha usually carries + the MG's will tear through it in less than a second, exposing the internals, which are then critted out in about another second.

... those 12 points of rear armor on CT and hopefully some 7 to 8 points on the side torsi and wonder how those typical PIR-1 setups manage to deal 12 points of damage to CT in under 1 second when even the strongest cHSML alpha at 200m only nets about 3.9 damage and of the 6-8 damage from the machine guns at (very very optimistic) best deal another 4-5 points on the CT at that range during a full second.

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Come on. A Piranha needs 2-3 seconds on your back to render you completely combat ineffective.

in order to manage that the PIR-1 has more or less to come to a stand still and the target must not move the slightest. While I have such occurances every once in a while, it's still rather rare.

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

If playing an assault mech, it takes me that long to turn around.

And during that kind of movement - even with a strong maneuvering PIR pilot - that PIR won't be able to even remotely stay on a single target zone nor will it be able to consistantly only hitting the lower armored back parts of your side and center torsi.

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Give it a second to actually realize I'm being killed, and I'm dead before I can move. Heavies have a better shot, but even if I see the Piranha heading towards my ***, and preemptively start to twist, it's usually game over unless the Piranha is a bad pilot.

If you actually are seeing that PIR closing in on you, it'll have next to zero chance of hitting your back armor without a significant amount of spread that includes arms and legs and at that point you hopefully have your arms with weapons unlocked and are prepared to keep moving and/or putting your back against a wall. Without arm weaponry you're a bit more SOL but keeping up the anchor turning / moving your back against a wall will still save you as long as your team didn't totally abandon you ... at which point it's their also failure and not necessarily just yours.

=> For a PIR-1 to develop its "scary" damage rates it has to reach 140m (and lower depending on built), must have a pilot that doesn't spread damage too much, manage to pretty much stay behind his target for several (not just 2 to 3) seconds under movement conditions ... and even then builds that aim a strong survival values more than often don't die that "glorious crit deweaponizing and killing" some in here have allegedly experienced even in scenarios where they didn't simply stand still for a prolonged time and/or neglected to watch their rear armor indicators while focussing just on a target in front of them.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 03 April 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[meteorol]

The Piranha is an excrescence of a way deeper problem that this game is plaqued by quite some time now:

Crit system and equipment hp do not lead to a fun experience. More so since the broad changes to equipment HP (can't really remember when that was).

A PIR critting out all weapons within literally one second once a component is opened is just an amplification of the general problem: weapons are destroyed way too fast. By all kinds of incoming damage, not just MGs. PIR just slaps the problem into everyones face.

It's not a fun mechanic. It heavily devalues structure as part of the HP pool. Losing a massive amount of firepower the moment armor is breached is just tedious.

I enjoy using all my armor, tanking mechs into low HP values, generally giving everything i can until i die. What i don't enjoy is tanking for two minutes because i have like 150hp of structure to work with but no weapons to fire back.

[Darian DelFord]

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Yes, but it's not just assaults that will die to Piranhas this way. Any heavy mech will also die very quickly to one, if it gets your back for a second or two. Given it's small size and speed, its not that hard to wait until your team engages and get behind something.

Which is exactly what the piranha was designed for and EXACTLY what lights are meant to do. This is in no way OP or to much. This is the light mech working EXACTLY the way they are suppose to. Also this is not a solo, this is a two on one scenario

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Seismic is useless if you're moving, which you really should be. It also only has a 200 meter range, and once the Piranha is in 200 meters of your back you're already dead.

Wrong on so many levels. While you are correct that seismic is useless while you are moving, most targets are not when they are targeted by a light. Also you are not dead under 200 meters.... look to the 2nd video that I posted. Seismic is an EXCELLENT early detection that a light mech is approaching... just because you MAKE A CONSCIOUS DECISION not to skill it up vs more PEW PEW does NOT make the piranha OP.

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

... of course? Even if it has 12 back armor (high for an assault) the lasers the Piranha usually carries + the MG's will tear through it in less than a second, exposing the internals, which are then critted out in about another second.

Incorrect, I suggest you actually test this, as I already have.

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Come on. A Piranha needs 2-3 seconds on your back to render you completely combat ineffective. If playing an assault mech, it takes me that long to turn around. Give it a second to actually realize I'm being killed, and I'm dead before I can move. Heavies have a better shot, but even if I see the Piranha heading towards my ***, and preemptively start to twist, it's usually game over unless the Piranha is a bad pilot.

Once again I suggest you actually test this before you state it as fact. I am sorry but when I play an assault (rare though it is) I am keenly aware of my back armor. The moment it is changing color I am moving and or turning depending on the situation. Granted I am light player and I know when its likely one will strike

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

True, but again, you only have 2-3 seconds to react and try to turn, or you will be combat ineffective as your torso weapons are ripped off.

Not true look above.

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Doesn't help if I can't see you, and even if I can, most of the heaviest weapons are torso mounted. The couple of lasers on my arms firing blindly below my cockpit as the Piranha hugs me to death won't save me.

There are only a handful of mechs that can not see a piranha and honestly the best defense if they are in front of you is to run into them.... trust me it will play havoc with them. IF they are behind and under you... turn around and back up.... this will alleviate the problem


Once again all my points stand.... Assaults make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to make themselves more vulnerable to light mechs in lieu of more PEW PEW. Yet want to come here and complain because of those choices they made and the lights merely caught them with their pants down.



Something else that just baffles me is the amount of armor that an assault can mount compared to when the game first launched.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 April 2018 - 10:13 AM.

[Helsbane]

[color=#959595]Once again all my points stand.... Assaults make a CONSCIOUS CHOICE to make themselves more vulnerable to light mechs in lieu of more PEW PEW. Yet want to come here and complain because of those choices they made and the lights merely caught them with their pants down.[/color]

I always skill up seismic, regardless of what weight class I'm in. Knowledge is power, and that makes seismic mandatory. Pants, on the other hand, are completely optional...

[Eisenhorne]

Darian, even in my warhammer I can't shoot a Piranha that's engaging me point blank with torso weapons, it's too close to hit. If it's supposed to be rock paper scissors, that lights beat assaults, then fine, whatever.

I disagree with a couple of your assertions, but I don't think we're going to come to common ground, so I'll just stop arguing that. The one thing I don't think you'll disagree with though is that the Piranha does the whole backstabbing thing better than any other light mech in the game. There is -no- other mech that has the speed, agility, and firepower of the Piranha. PGI can either give the Flea comparable firepower to balance IS vs Clan, and I'll just deal with them, or they can nerf the Piranha to be in line with the firepower of other light mechs. I know several players who regularly pump out ~1,000 dmg games with their Piranhas. They're good, and they'd do great in other light mechs, but it's a difference of 300-400 damage and 1-2 kills. This is not isolated, this is not them playing against potatoes, this is most games. The Piranha is just objectively better than all other light mechs at this role.

[Bud Crue]

Mystere, on 03 April 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

And that sums up in a nutshell the very tragic life of this game and why it never achieved its full potential. Too much time, effort, money, and other very limited resources were spent on so-called "balance" above all else.

Hell! For all I know, it was probably deviously intentional. The more players constantly ***** and moan about balance, the bigger "excuse" there is to "fix" balance over working on anything else.

I’m all for balance. But that isn’t what PGI seems to actually strive for. They push arbitrary changes fo no apparent reason that I can tell. I used to think it was to drive sales (e.g. the whole underlying OP release for $ then nerf for cbills) but then they went the opposite route with the Hellspawn and Thanatos so I no longer can even give them credit for that sort of cynical ploy. One could make the case for they nerf based on whining but here too they have notable instances of ignoring the whines. I mean consider the number of threads a few months back about the Deathstrike, or even the tepid nature of the Assassin nerf. So I no longer have any idea what the hell they are balancing or what the word balance even means in the context of this game.

I mean they (Paul, Chris and Russ) only ever really talk about two things: Chassis to chassis balance and tech balance. As to the later I no longer care. As to the former I think its a lie or at best a myth (Vindicators or Kit Foxes are roughly equivalent competitive-wise to Mad-IIcs or Annis? I think not, PGI however once claimed that the data shows they are). And speaking of myths, whatever happened to Paul’s once stated goal of every variant having a role that is of equvelance to every other mech in the game?

Nowadays with the “every month balance needs to be adjusted but trust us balance has never been better” approach to the game I just assume they are dinking with weapons values and mech quirks because they are just bored...or, ya know, playing darts. Maybe its just job security. It sure as hell has nothing to do with balance. Meh. Enjoy the Piranhas while they last, but they won’t last forever. That I am sure of.

Edited by Bud Crue, 03 April 2018 - 10:26 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

The Piranha is just objectively better than all other light mechs at this role.

Which begs the question whether or not it's actually the other light mechs - the least played weight class - should be buffed instead of nerfing that particular mech variant?! The funny thing is: Next to nobody seems to have problems with the other PIR versions.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 03 April 2018 - 10:27 AM.

[MechaBattler]

You boat something enough it becomes ridiculous. That has always been the case in MWO. But we shouldn't nerf individual weapons or the mechs. That leads to useless weapons or bad mechs.

[yrrot]

That's probably because only the MG boat can completely ignore heat. The all laser variant has to deal with ghost heat as well. It's the best variant of the highest DPS light in the game.

[Darian DelFord]

Eisenhorne, on 03 April 2018 - 10:19 AM, said:

Darian, even in my warhammer I can't shoot a Piranha that's engaging me point blank with torso weapons, it's too close to hit. If it's supposed to be rock paper scissors, that lights beat assaults, then fine, whatever.

I disagree with a couple of your assertions, but I don't think we're going to come to common ground, so I'll just stop arguing that. The one thing I don't think you'll disagree with though is that the Piranha does the whole backstabbing thing better than any other light mech in the game. There is -no- other mech that has the speed, agility, and firepower of the Piranha. PGI can either give the Flea comparable firepower to balance IS vs Clan, and I'll just deal with them, or they can nerf the Piranha to be in line with the firepower of other light mechs. I know several players who regularly pump out ~1,000 dmg games with their Piranhas. They're good, and they'd do great in other light mechs, but it's a difference of 300-400 damage and 1-2 kills. This is not isolated, this is not them playing against potatoes, this is most games. The Piranha is just objectively better than all other light mechs at this role.

Your killing me her all the while proving my point. Correct me if I am wrong (I have not played a WH since they came out) but EVERY variant of a WH has arm weapons... specifically energy weapons (suppose to be PPC"s if I remember right). So again you are making a conscious decision to buff your torso weapons in lieu of possibly anti light weapons in the arms, or any weapons in the arm... and saying you can't target a light because your torso weapons will not be able to target them...... Please tell me you see the irony in this?


Overall I will agree the piranha is in the top 3 lights for backstabbing if not the top 1. However the Locust and the cheetah as well as the WH can give it a run for the money if you are strictly going with backstabbing. Over all performance with ALL things a light mech must do to be successful I would put it 4. For the main reason is the MG variant is useless outside of 175 meters.

In regards to pumping out 1000 points of damage regularly? How did they get their 1000 points of damage. The first video that I posted shows me over 1k damage.... But it was not ALL MG damage. The problem is we do not know HOW they got that damage. I have seen light pilots do well over 4k damage in faction play.... but they also have multiple artis and airstrikes availiable.

This is why I posted that first video. There is not a doubt in anyone's mind that the MG"s did all that damage. It is impossible with the amount of ammo that I carry to do more than 860 points of damage. So these 1000 point games people keep talking about are being caused by something else.... NOT MG rounds. (Ammo Amount does play in here)

Der Geisterbaer, on 03 April 2018 - 10:27 AM, said:

Which begs the question whether or not it's actually the other light mechs - the least played weight class - should be buffed instead of nerfing that particular mech variant?! The funny thing is: Next to nobody seems to have problems with the other PIR versions.

BTW just a hint..... If skilled correctly the IS has one of the best light hunters in the game..... that is the OXIDE even after the re scale..... It would suck for anything else..... but it would waste just about anything other than a quirked Urbie and maybe a WH.



I agree whole heartily on this.... All the other light mechs need a buff save a very specific few. Hell just undoing the rescale would help.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 03 April 2018 - 11:01 AM.

[Mister Glitchdragon]

No need to nerf anything if PGI'd fix hit reg. These threads would be replaced with "PIR Too Squishy!"" if hits registered correctly.

[justcallme A S H]

Samial, on 03 April 2018 - 06:20 AM, said:

Anyway if nothing is done i'll get some payback on my fleas...

Ahhh... No you won't.

[Darian DelFord]

Mister Glitchdragon, on 03 April 2018 - 10:49 AM, said:

No need to nerf anything if PGI'd fix hit reg. These threads would be replaced with "PIR Too Squishy!"" if hits registered correctly.

Hit Reg is a heck of a lot better than it used to be.