333 replies to this topic

[Xiphias]

Throe, on 05 April 2018 - 10:07 AM, said:

All this talk of jobs. You're not really wrong, and yet Nema Nabojiv is still correct in that you win as a team or lose as a team. Lights can be very effective at chasing away other Lights, and if your team's Assaults are getting harassed by a fast Light the *only* thing that can *chase* it away is another fast Light. The best Mediums can hope to do is kill it while it's there, and you won't have a very large window to do so against "zoom and boom" Lights.

If we want to get technical, there are mediums that can keep up with lights (e.g. Cicada, Ice Ferret, etc). Obviously generalities aren't going to apply in all cases. Sometimes it is a good idea for light mechs to screen against other lights.

The main point I want to make is that often times it isn't a good idea for light mechs to be chasing away other lights. Lights are often far away when assaults call for help and can't quickly get back/have to sacrifice a good position to do so. Having lights stay with the assaults is also usually a bad idea because it severely limits the lights from using their inherent advantage of speed.

Mediums/heavies can easily make a light run away and even if they don't chase it, doing any significant damage will likely cause it to run away. Actually chasing a light mechs is pretty dangerous for lights since it's easy to run into the enemy team that way. Overall, I think there is a general misconception that lights should be killing other lights and protecting assaults and I think that idea is wrong. It's like trying to use a rock to beat a rock in RPS, not really a good strat.

[Dimento Graven]

Xiphias, on 05 April 2018 - 10:06 AM, said:

Absolutely, lights can manuever to get behind you based on where you move. Guess what if you run straight for the center of the map that's a choice the team is making.

If you're in a slower 'mech you're trying to move to your team as quickly as possible, as again, they've more often than not left you behind, so yeah, you're attempting to meet your team so you can participate in the battle and share armor.

If you're attempting to move in such a way as to avoid lights completely:

A: You're not helping your team, you may never reach the battle until it's too late.
B: Considering that lights can move upwards THREE TIMES the speed, and can cover THAT MUCH MORE GROUND than a slower 'mech it's a pointless exercise anyway.

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Yes, and?

You can't play the 'git gud' card because people can't see through solid objects.

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Okay, so the light has made an effort to move to a position it can get behind you. Now you know what those locations are and you also know the locations the lights can't be (because you could see them if they were). Now you can check those locations periodically to make sure you aren't about to get backstabbed. I don't see the problem with this. If a light is adjusting its movement to avoid being seen why can't you adjust yours to avoid getting backstabbed?

Except you're ignoring the fact that, AGAIN, limited turning ability prevents most 'mechs from being able to see behind them and becasue the light gets to take advantage of 3 times the speed and all the cover available can pop out at LESS than 90 meters leaving ZERO time for the assault to PROACTIVELY prevent getting shot in the ***.

It is 100% easier for the light to come up behind and shoot a larger 'mech unawares than it is for the assault to do his job of damaging the enemies AND getting to the battle, AND sharing armor, AND constantly checking behind him for the inevitable 12mg/laser butt gank.

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What is it you want? The incursion mode radar sweep so that you can just see where all mechs are at all times and just focus on shooting what's in front of you all the time? I think having the ability to flank and having to make choices adds a lot of depth to the game. There are ways to prevent lights from getting behind you or detecting them if they do, even without seismic. Seismic just makes it easier. What you are complaining about is having to invest skill points to get an extremely powerful ability.

As opposed to the near 'free pass' mode lights get in just running up behind assaults who can't turn as fast, or far enough, or aim low enough to effectively fight off a single light in a BALANCED manner, let alone MORE than one.

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I disliked the introduction of seismic, it was totally broken when first added to the game (400m while moving or something). Even after nerfs it was still taken with radar dep as the best module by a long shot. Where it stands now I'm okay with it. If you want the benefits you have to invest significantly in the sensor tree. I think that's totally fair. You just shouldn't get that kind of advantage for little to no cost.

Little to no cost? It required investment in CBILLS and experience and loss of the very few module slots we were allotted.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Throe, on 05 April 2018 - 10:07 AM, said:

All this talk of jobs. You're not really wrong, and yet Nema Nabojiv is still correct in that you win as a team or lose as a team. Lights can be very effective at chasing away other Lights, and if your team's Assaults are getting harassed by a fast Light the *only* thing that can *chase* it away is another fast Light. The best Mediums can hope to do is kill it while it's there, and you won't have a very large window to do so against "zoom and boom" Lights.

Generally most lights are bad at anti light duties. Wolfhounds and Urbanmechs could be decent anti light mechs, but they have better jobs to be doing. The mediums generally are those that protect against lights, as they are generally playing fire support next to assaults anyway, and a light isn't going to be able to kill anyone if everyone is following the buddy system.

[FupDup]

Dimento Graven, on 05 April 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

Little to no cost? It required investment in CBILLS and experience and loss of the very few module slots we were allotted.

All modules required C-Bills and XP, and since those resources can be gathered infinitely for no real money it's not exactly some kind of steep opportunity cost. It's just an inconvenience, and only a one-time inconvenience if you did the smart thing and swapped modules between your mechs instead of buying a new one for every variant.

Of all the modules, the only mech module that had similar effectiveness as Seismic Wallhack was Radar Derp. Since every mech had two mech module slots when mastered you didn't even have to choose between those two (take both all day every day). Every other choice was clearly inferior, other than maybe Target Decay on an LRM boat.

[roekenny]

M Jordanus Sicarius, on 05 April 2018 - 08:44 AM, said:

If I ever see a Piranha in a game, I will immediately call it out and try to get my team to kill it before it can do any serious damage. Am literally more scared of them than any other mech.

You obviously not faced a urbie those things give lights nightmares. Assault armor packing medium firepower with it's head on a swivel. You just don't fight them unless they are very badly damaged.

Dimento Graven, on 05 April 2018 - 09:35 AM, said:

Disagree.

I find ridiculous that effectively a VW with a bunch of 9 millimeter pistols are supposedly capable of driving up behind and M1 tank and nearly instantaneously blowing it to crap...

Forgot the part where that M1 has had all is armor blown to kingdom come and all it's delicate and fragile hydraulics and electronics on clear display. https://mwo.gamepedi...-_A_Brief_Guide might help if you know where and how the scary PIR-1 boogieman touched you to become a pile of molten slag.

edit full forum post on the matter
https://mwomercs.com...-a-brief-guide/

Edited by roekenny, 05 April 2018 - 10:40 AM.

[Duncan Aravain]

Nightbird, on 05 April 2018 - 09:49 AM, said:

People that use history seldom understand it.

For example, specialized tank killers were only 10-20% the weight of they heavy tanks they prey on.

As a side note, could you please direct me to a site that confirms this? All my info states that dedicated tank killers were mostly built on MBT chassis, had upgraded guns and frontal armor, and usually sacrificed a turret mechanism and non frontal armor, although had very similar tonnage. It wasn't until the advent of guided missle use or wheeled at guns in the 70-80s that TDs lost significant weight. Thanks from a history buff.

Edited by Duncan Aravain, 05 April 2018 - 10:35 AM.

[Nightbird]

There's been enough complaining that I'm pretty sure a nerf is coming. However, the people who can't figure out how not to get back stabbed today will still be back stabbed tomorrow and the day after. C'est la vie of a potato

[Nightbird]

Duncan Aravain, on 05 April 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

As a side note, could you please direct me to a site that confirms this? All my info states that dedicated tank killers were mostly built on MBT chassis, had upgraded guns and frontal armor, and usually sacrificed a turret mechanism and non frontal armor, although had very similar tonnage. It wasn't until the advent of guided missle use or wheeled at guns in the 70-80s that TDs lost significant weight. Thanks from a history buff.

MBT: M1 Abrams USA 60-72 tons https://en.wikipedia.../wiki/M1_Abrams
ATGM: M1134 USA 15+ tons https://en.wikipedia...Missile_Vehicle

Nevermind, you wanted older examples? Really? In a game placed 1000 years in the future? If you want to look at WWII examples, then yes, tank destroyers were larger.

Edited by Nightbird, 05 April 2018 - 10:52 AM.

[Mystere]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 05 April 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

No other mechwarrior game in the series had any of those things, seems somewhat unrealistic that they'd just add them into this one.

Considering the advances made with CPUs, GPUs, and game engines over the last two decades or so, it's not entirely unrealistic to expect a modern-day Mechwarrior game to have more innovative features that previous ones.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Duncan Aravain, on 05 April 2018 - 10:33 AM, said:

As a side note, could you please direct me to a site that confirms this? All my info states that dedicated tank killers were mostly built on MBT chassis, had upgraded guns and frontal armor, and usually sacrificed a turret mechanism and non frontal armor, although had very similar tonnage. It wasn't until the advent of guided missle use or wheeled at guns in the 70-80s that TDs lost significant weight. Thanks from a history buff.

America was the one that mostly had tank destroyers that weren't just defensive. The ones that lost the turret mechanism and had upgraded frontal armor were german and russian TDs mostly, they were used defensively and basically sat as AT guns that could move themselves if needed. They were mostly used simply because it was cheaper to have a tank without a turret than with a turret and because germany was going broke in the war and russia mostly just mass produced low quality stuff anyway.

American tank destroyers like the M10 and Hellcat were based around moving quickly, having low armor, being stealthy, and having a big gun. They're pretty much the embodiment of light mechs in MWO.

Mystere, on 05 April 2018 - 10:39 AM, said:

Considering the advances made with CPUs, GPUs, and game engines over the last two decades or so, it's not entirely unrealistic to expect a modern-day Mechwarrior game to have more innovative features that previous ones.

Its unrealistic when its a free to play to be fair.

[Darian DelFord]

Sheesh, the amount of assaults and heavies that want to make it even easier to kill a light over how easy it is now...... rear facing weapons..... more armor..... more structure....... greater turning arcs....... more speed...... The last thing we need are assaults that can face their rear arc in less than 2 seconds. Most can still see their 6 quicker than they should be able to.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 05 April 2018 - 10:28 AM, said:

Wolfhounds and Urbanmechs could be decent anti light mechs, but they have better jobs to be doing.

Like what? They're not fast enough to do piranha things and dont have enough range to do poking like cheetas. And lights trading damage in the main line is more of a waste than chasing lights. Never hold my shots if I see them doing it.

[Throe]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 05 April 2018 - 10:07 AM, said:

Due to the way armor in the battletech universe works, you don't actually want bigger guns. The most optimal approach actually is machine guns. Battletech armor is ablative, meaning it just chips off after each hit rather than being penetrated like modern day armor. This means that a light mech with 12 MGs such as the piranha wears away armor very quick. For example, 12 MGs in tabletop would do 24 damage in one shot while an AC20 only would deal 20.

MGs in MWO don't work the same as they do in Tabletop, which is precisely as it should be. In any case, unless I'm mistaken, all 12 shots from those MGs in Tabletop would have different randomly determined hit locations, where the AC/20 might only have 5.

Contrast that to MWO, where the pilot can accurately place all shots in the same spot, and MG damage against armor is reduced for very good reason.

[FupDup]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 April 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

Like what? They're not fast enough to do piranha things and dont have enough range to do poking like cheetas. And lights trading damage in the main line is more of a waste than chasing lights. Never hold my shots if I see them doing it.

Range is dependent on the build. For example, my 3 ERML + UAC/2 Urbie definitely qualifies as a mainline poker. That loadout is not going to be very good at nailing tiny fast Piranhas.

And really, enemy mechs like the Piranha normally hide for the first part of the match until a lot of people are damaged. If you're only using an Urbie for pure anti-light duty and not shooting bigger enemies you'd be spending a lot of the match doing absolutely nothing.

Throe, on 05 April 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

MGs in MWO don't work the same as they do in Tabletop, which is precisely as it should be. In any case, unless I'm mistaken, all 12 shots from those MGs in Tabletop would have different randomly determined hit locations, where the AC/20 might only have 5.

Contrast that to MWO, where the pilot can accurately place all shots in the same spot, and MG damage against armor is reduced for very good reason.

The AC/20 would have only one hit location, it does not spread damage at all. The MGs would definitely spread all over though, outside of really good luck. You could use MG Arrays to reduce the spreading around, allowing up to 4 MGs to combine into a single Super MG (i.e. array of 4 MGs does 8 damage to one spot).

[Throe]

[deleted by user]

Edited by Throe, 08 November 2018 - 06:00 PM.

[Nightbird]

FupDup, on 05 April 2018 - 10:52 AM, said:

Range is dependent on the build. For example, my 3 ERML + UAC/2 Urbie definitely qualifies as a mainline poker. That loadout is not going to be very good at nailing tiny fast Piranhas.

And really, enemy mechs like the Piranha normally hide for the first part of the match until a lot of people are damaged. If you're only using an Urbie for pure anti-light duty and not shooting bigger enemies you'd be spending a lot of the match doing absolutely nothing.


The AC/20 would have only one hit location, it does not spread damage at all. The MGs would definitely spread all over though, outside of really good luck. You could use MG Arrays to reduce the spreading around, allowing up to 4 MGs to combine into a single Super MG (i.e. array of 4 MGs does 8 damage to one spot).

Light duelists like the locust-1e or any streak boat can kill a piranha quickly. Urbie... not the right choice for the job anyways

[Throe]

[deleted by user]

Edited by Throe, 08 November 2018 - 06:00 PM.

[FupDup]

Throe, on 05 April 2018 - 10:54 AM, said:

This is not always true in tabletop. A quick read of the Sarna article on AC/20s will tell you that much. AC/20s in MWO do have a single shell(for IS anyway), but that functionality in TableTop is limited to a different weapon type referred to as "Rifles"(similar to the Gauss Rifle, for example).

Multi-shell ACs are a lore element that does not affect TT gameplay. All ACs, regardless of lore burst size, allocate their damage into a single location in TT unless you're using some advanced rules that give you the option to spread it out over multiple targets (forgot which rulebook that was in though).

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Nema Nabojiv, on 05 April 2018 - 10:46 AM, said:

Like what? They're not fast enough to do piranha things and dont have enough range to do poking like cheetas. And lights trading damage in the main line is more of a waste than chasing lights. Never hold my shots if I see them doing it.

Wolfhound moves the same speed as cheetahs and the same damage as the prenerf CSPL cheetah while retaining more armor and range. They fill the same old role and do Piranha things better than the Piranha in many cases due to being able to just shoot quick and have extremely low facetime. Not only this but they ownzone any lights that did decide to sit back doing nothing but attempting to protect fatmechs.

Urbanmechs can pretty much just fight any mech they want and assist the mediums by being a pocket medium. Also can get in pokes on heavier mechs at closer ranges. Basically it should be doing more than *just* defending against lights, but it should look to do that when possible, but so should any mech when they have a clear shot on one.

Throe, on 05 April 2018 - 10:50 AM, said:

MGs in MWO don't work the same as they do in Tabletop, which is precisely as it should be. In any case, unless I'm mistaken, all 12 shots from those MGs in Tabletop would have different randomly determined hit locations, where the AC/20 might only have 5.

Contrast that to MWO, where the pilot can accurately place all shots in the same spot, and MG damage against armor is reduced for very good reason.

I'm simply stating that in tabletop, and lore in general, MGs are pretty much the best weapon from a DPS/Ton standpoint, and that MG boating lights in MWO *should* be effective.

[Krivvan]

naterist, on 05 April 2018 - 09:52 AM, said:

All these people tryin to brainstorm reasons to justify pirahnas higher than average scores.

You're assuming it has higher than average scores.

Some other people's results suggest that the Piranha actually has average scores. It just has more variance with higher highs and lower lows.

Dimento Graven, on 05 April 2018 - 10:26 AM, said:

If you're attempting to move in such a way as to avoid lights completely:

A: You're not helping your team, you may never reach the battle until it's too late.
B: Considering that lights can move upwards THREE TIMES the speed, and can cover THAT MUCH MORE GROUND than a slower 'mech it's a pointless exercise anyway.

Then how do all the good assault players do it?