352 replies to this topic

[OrmsbyGore]

kuma8877, on 06 April 2018 - 06:08 PM, said:

None of those platforms imparts any real speed benefits to the velocity of the round. Apaches kill armor just fine from a hover, and A-10's and Harriers providing close air support aren't exactly speeding around the battlefield all top gun like.

And how long do you think something with ablative armor stands in front of that weathering the storm? Now imagine MG's that actually weigh a 1/2 ton and what that could do.

OK, but history shows us that as weapon systems advance, so do defenses against it, so it is entirely possible that the futuristic sci-fi armor may very well make giant machine guns ineffective against armor.

I'm not telling you which weapon would have which value, I'm just saying that it's silly to base balancing decisions for a video game based on a FICTIONAL universe on what current technology can do.

[Mystere]

VonBruinwald, on 08 April 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

Sorry Myst, but I'm behind Dogstar on this one.

And that's perfectly fine given I never said "everyone".

[Dogstar]

VonBruinwald, on 08 April 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

Sorry Myst, but I'm behind Dogstar on this one.

Thank you.

[Scyther]

@Nightbird:

Quote:
"No one thinks the DPS on the Piranha is high, people think the DPS against exposed components is too high. Going over base DPS to the extent you did is where you tripped up."

I take it that me saying "the numbers I posted are simply normal, base damage, and do not take into account the multipliers that apply once armor is gone", or pointing out that the numbers are taken from Smurfy builds, was too subtle?

[kuma8877]

MadBadger, on 08 April 2018 - 09:12 AM, said:

All the yadda yadda about 'balance by potatoes', 'whiners got it nerfed' is foolish.
1) PGI doesn't pay attention to the forums.
2) There are 10x as many 'potatoes' in the player base as 'leets'.
3) There are likely 5x as many players in tiers 3-5 as tier 1-2.
4) It's been pointed out that Chris was looking at MGs long before 'the whining' started.
5) Knowledgeable players who did the math pointed out how deadly 'massed MGs' would be even before some of these mechs were in the game.

Players talk about the 'whining potatoes' (which isn't even a factor to PGI) and yet they are whining just as hard that their new toys are being taken away.

Sorry to rain on your parade guys, but the stats speak for themselves:

IS
LCT-1V ...... 4B(LA/RA) 1E(CT) .... 5.46dps/200+cool 154kph/0jj
SDR-5K ..... 4B(LA/RA) 1E(CT) .... 5.46dps/300+cool 135kph/6jj
OSR-1P ..... 4B(LA/RA) 2E(CT) .... 6.92dps/163cool . 130kph/4jj
UM-R60 ..... 4B(RA) .... 2E(LA) ..... 6.93dps/83cool .... 97kph/3jj (2xMPulse since tonnage allowed)
EMBER(H).. 4B(LT/RT) 4E(LA/RA) 9.60dps/96cool .. 118kph/5jj
HUGINN(H) 4B(LA/RA) 2M(LT/RT) 9.73dps/100cool 130kph/2jj (2xSRM4 w/2.5 tons ammo)
-----------------------------

CLAN
PIR-1 ........ 12B(LT/RT) 3E(LA/RA/CT) .. 14.5dps/116cool 146kph/0jj
PIR-A ......... 8B(LT/RT) 3E(LA/RA/CT) ... 10.89dps/77cool 142kph/0jj
CIPHER(H) .. 6B(LT/RT) 9E(6 in LT/RT) .. 9.22dps/67cool 146kph/0jj (6xC-ER-MicroL in torso, 3E unused)
MLX-G ........ 8B(LA/RA) 4E(LA/RA/RT) .. 10.98dps/93cool 113kph/6jj (4xC-ER-MicroL)
ACH-E ........ 6B(LA/RA) 3E(LT/RT) .......... 9.46dps/72cool 130kph/6jj (3xC-SmPulse)
FURY(H) ...... 6B(LA/RA) 2E(CT) .............. 8.98dps/83cool 139kph/4jj (2xC-MedPulse)

Clan/IS imbalance? ✔
High damage with little to no heat issues? ✔
Extremely fast mechs with hit reg issues? ✔
Crit-seeking damage with multiplier? ✔

If you didn't see this coming then you've obviously been playing some other game for the last 4 years.

Note:
-All mechs with max armor, best upgrades (Endo, Ferro, DHS), XL Engines, JJ where available.
-Standard machine guns with 3 tons ammo, no AMS, Energy weapons with best match to MG range
(SMPulse for IS, C-HvySml for Clan, except where noted)
-Some armor reduced to fit the last ton, usually 4-8 points off head.
-Used Smurfy for DPS, Cooling Efficiency, Speed numbers.

While I appreciate the thought put into this, it fails where the rubber meets the road. On paper, the high DPS of the 1 looks to be the strongest, but in reality, of the loadouts available to the chassis line, it isn't. The blended L and B variants are the best for being active the whole game and allow you to put more mechs down in a larger variety of situations. Boating in either direction (B or L) actually shoehorns the PIR into more of the niche of backstabbing or late game kill securing (where others have already done the lion's share of work for you) role.

Let's also not forget that the PIR itself has a substantial physical nerf in the form of very low cockpit visibility and inherent tunnel vision that, as far as I know, no other chassis has to deal with anything remotely similar.

[Nightbird]

MadBadger, on 08 April 2018 - 10:37 AM, said:

@Nightbird:

Quote:
"No one thinks the DPS on the Piranha is high, people think the DPS against exposed components is too high. Going over base DPS to the extent you did is where you tripped up."

I take it that me saying "the numbers I posted are simply normal, base damage, and do not take into account the multipliers that apply once armor is gone", or pointing out that the numbers are taken from Smurfy builds, was too subtle?

You missed the part where, none of those IS builds are remotely viable, due to hitboxes not suited to strafing, torso pitch, and speed, before we even get to the DPS problem There were too many issues to point out, I just picked one, which was if you wanted to compare DPS numbers do it for exposed components

Edited by Nightbird, 08 April 2018 - 10:47 AM.

[kuma8877]

OrmsbyGore, on 08 April 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

OK, but history shows us that as weapon systems advance, so do defenses against it, so it is entirely possible that the futuristic sci-fi armor may very well make giant machine guns ineffective against armor.

I'm not telling you which weapon would have which value, I'm just saying that it's silly to base balancing decisions for a video game based on a FICTIONAL universe on what current technology can do.

While I could agree with you in a general sense, the problem is, you have the base game (BT) that defines universal rules in the fiction. In this case, according to the rules that define mech combat in the BT universe, mech mounted MG's are as effective at range, as AC2's against that same future armor. So, regardless of whatever weapon system we use to extrapolate our thought experiment out into the future with, the fact remains, that in this fictional universe, MG's are combat effective against mechs, armor and infantry.

Edited by kuma8877, 08 April 2018 - 10:50 AM.

[Dogstar]

kuma8877, on 08 April 2018 - 10:40 AM, said:

Let's also not forget that the PIR itself has a substantial physical nerf in the form of very low cockpit visibility and inherent tunnel vision that, as far as I know, no other chassis has to deal with anything remotely similar.

*COUGH* Shadowhawk *COUGH*

[kuma8877]

Dogstar, on 08 April 2018 - 10:51 AM, said:

*COUGH* Shadowhawk *COUGH*

Fair enough, but I thought there was still more vertical view even there. Still not as bad as viewing through the toilet paper roll that is the PIR viewport.

Edited by kuma8877, 08 April 2018 - 10:54 AM.

[Dogstar]

Yeah the PIR is pretty bad, adn it's certainly been a while since I've played a shadowhawk too.

If only PGI were as keen to remodel old mechs as they are to mess with the balance.

Although if they remodelled as badly as they balance then maybe we're better off where we are...

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

OrmsbyGore, on 08 April 2018 - 10:32 AM, said:

OK, but history shows us that as weapon systems advance, so do defenses against it, so it is entirely possible that the futuristic sci-fi armor may very well make giant machine guns ineffective against armor.

I'm not telling you which weapon would have which value, I'm just saying that it's silly to base balancing decisions for a video game based on a FICTIONAL universe on what current technology can do.

People just bring up IRL guns because people have some stupid idea that mgs can't damage armor and that battletech MGs are firing .22 or something when battletech MGs in lore are actually big guns that deal considerable damage to battletech armor, so people generally show comparisons to IRL autocannons and rotary autocannons to give people an example of what they should think of when they hear machine gun in a battletech sense.

One guy compared a piranha to a VW with 9mm handguns, when really the MG would be the size of the VW itself.

[Scyther]

@Nightbird:

See, this is where the fallacy of "I am tier 1, therefore my opinion is good" runs into problems.

Quote:
"You missed the part where, none of those IS builds are remotely viable, due to hitboxes not suited to strafing, torso pitch, and speed, before we even get to the DPS problem"

The first point below the mech list was "IS/Mech imbalance", which showed that the Clan mechs were much superior, and the cause of actual imbalance. That said, a Locust, Osiris, Spider or Ember build with machine guns is perfectly viable, just less so than the clans. Most of them have their weapons in the arms, so torso pitch not a factor. The Piranha has all its' MGs in its torso, that hasn't limited it overmuch. The Urbie I agree is probably limited by speed from being fully effective with MGs.

Quote:
"There were too many issues to point out, I just picked one"

Basically you are saying you couldn't actually point anything else out, so you just pretended there were 'lots of things' wrong. Those are plain, simple, Smurfy build numbers. Nothing fancy. Fast light, short range weapons, high damage - use speed to locate an outlier mech, get in behind it, rip it to shreds before it responds. If things get hot, use speed and JJs to gtfo. Pretty much what most lights have always done (except the few sniper/spotter builds), except (some of) these mechs are much more deadly at it.

Quote:
"which was if you wanted to compare DPS numbers do it for exposed components"

You can't accurately compare DPS for exposed components because the crits are RNG based, and somewhat dependent on how much component/structure is there to hit. Thus, you compare base damage numbers as I did, which also shows you just how efficiently that build can strip the armor to expose the internals. No point showing exposed damage only if you can't expose a section in the first place.

Really, if you are going to debate a lost point, at least put a minimally viable effort into it.

Edited by MadBadger, 08 April 2018 - 11:24 AM.

[CMDR Sunset Shimmer]

So, it seems the agreement in this thread is "Yes, there IS a problem with MG's, IE the Crit system is currently abused by them."

yet people are sitting here laughing, going "it was fun while it lasted." ect...

instead of actually handing the information to PGI, instead of trying to work with them to fix the weapon, you're all just content with abusing the mechanic until it get's nerfed.

So good, I'm glad MG's are getting nerfed, I'm glad Lights are getting a kick to the balls again, because each and every one of you who have abused this mechanic, have pushed this.


****, I'll be so glad when MW5 comes out and I don't have to deal with people like this anymore.

[Nightbird]

Yes, you're right about everything in a game you haven't played in a year. xD

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

>talk about viable IS lights
>Wolfhound-2 not mentioned

[Nightbird]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 08 April 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

So, it seems the agreement in this thread is "Yes, there IS a problem with MG's, IE the Crit system is currently abused by them."

yet people are sitting here laughing, going "it was fun while it lasted." ect...

instead of actually handing the information to PGI, instead of trying to work with them to fix the weapon, you're all just content with abusing the mechanic until it get's nerfed.

So good, I'm glad MG's are getting nerfed, I'm glad Lights are getting a kick to the balls again, because each and every one of you who have abused this mechanic, have pushed this.


****, I'll be so glad when MW5 comes out and I don't have to deal with people like this anymore.

No one knows how OP the Piranhas are, no one has posted any stats. I personally find the Piranha to be weaker than the Cheeta today.

MW5 will be fun for a few days, but it's more fun to play against real people. No one cares about winning against AI, it's just about enjoying the story once or twice.

[Battlemaster56]

CMDR Sunset Shimmer, on 08 April 2018 - 11:21 AM, said:

So, it seems the agreement in this thread is "Yes, there IS a problem with MG's, IE the Crit system is currently abused by them."

yet people are sitting here laughing, going "it was fun while it lasted." ect...

instead of actually handing the information to PGI, instead of trying to work with them to fix the weapon, you're all just content with abusing the mechanic until it get's nerfed.

So good, I'm glad MG's are getting nerfed, I'm glad Lights are getting a kick to the balls again, because each and every one of you who have abused this mechanic, have pushed this.


****, I'll be so glad when MW5 comes out and I don't have to deal with people like this anymore.

Again with that word, what it being abused? Crits their strong yes... when the you or the enemy is open up and exposed to mg fire.

And quote me a few "abuser" of the crit mechanic please I want to know who abusing it. And don't you think people tried unless Chris comes on the forums right now and tell us what the main problem of mg's and how they going to address it, I'm gonna put your claim in the loony bin.

And goodbye then, can I have your stuff please?

Edited by Battlemaster56, 08 April 2018 - 11:29 AM.

[JediPanther]

And now any mech that uses or used mgs gets a new nerf. Sorry Ember,Spider 5k,lct-1v, and Raven 4x. You have been found OP yet again and now must suffer the wrath of Crybabies of ***-aults' Nerf Strike yet again.

[FupDup]

JediPanther, on 08 April 2018 - 11:38 AM, said:

And now any mech that uses or used mgs gets a new nerf. Sorry Ember,Spider 5k,lct-1v, and Raven 4x. You have been found OP yet again and now must suffer the wrath of Crybabies of ***-aults' Nerf Strike yet again.

I'm assuming that only Clan MGs are on the chopping block because there currently aren't any IS mechs that can carry more than 6 of them.

But yes, there will be some collateral damage either way such as the Viper and Shadow Cat.

Edited by FupDup, 08 April 2018 - 11:41 AM.

[Nightbird]

No IS mech should be running MGs anyways, there's no good platforms. You need agility, so not the Firestarter, and a humanoid shape to not get one shot from the side so not the Huggin, and weapons in the STs so you don't lose them when shielding as you're running within 100 meter of enemy mechs, so not the Spider.