352 replies to this topic

[kuma8877]

ApexSun, on 09 April 2018 - 12:17 PM, said:

Gee, my money was well spent on the PIR. First the Thanatos and now this. Hey PGI, do you understand why mechpack sales are likely going to ****?

The Thanatos actually got buffed though because it was so bad (after the fact). It's better today than it was upon release.

[dario03]

Nightbird, on 09 April 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

I said it last page, I'll say it again. Balance based on performance. If stats say the Piranha is overperforming the Cheeta, nerf it. If not, don't.

Specifically the Cheetah? Or mechs in general?

[kuma8877]

Nightbird, on 09 April 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

I said it last page, I'll say it again. Balance based on performance. If stats say the Piranha is overperforming the Cheeta, nerf it. If not, don't.

But you (PGI) have to define how it could be outperforming it and in what roles. The PIR isn't as versatile as the Cheetah (or the same weight for that matter). To have an expectation that the PIR-1 wouldn't outperform the Cheetah or MLX in MG usage would be a bit nutter if you ask me. It obviously should outclass other mechs in their usage as it has the ability to carry more of them as defined by BT and that defines the PIR's purpose.

As per lore, the Piranha is a dangerous mech when part of a pack (the team can play that role rather than a Star of other PIR's), and absolutely devastating to other mechs when they give up their back. This is how the PIR is described in BT, why do you (generalizing here) think some us wanted it? Because it was supposed to be a formidable light to add to the game, and it is just as described.

Edited by kuma8877, 09 April 2018 - 04:53 PM.

[gooddragon2]

Good news for me I guess. I never use machine guns and I've died to them a few times. Any nerf to them is probably just pure upsides for me.

[Damnedtroll]

kuma8877, on 06 April 2018 - 05:50 PM, said:

The GAU-8 30mm, from the A-10, only weighs in at 619.5 lbs. The GAU-12 25mm (from the Harrier) only weighs 270 lbs. The M230 30mm (Apache) weighs a hefty 127 lbs.... ALL of these will put holes through heavy armor today.

In battletech, a weapon system is build to be useful for centuries,...and foremost it's a game !

Edited by Damnedtroll, 09 April 2018 - 05:10 PM.

[Nightbird]

kuma8877, on 09 April 2018 - 04:49 PM, said:

But you (PGI) have to define how it could be outperforming it and in what roles. The PIR isn't as versatile as the Cheetah (or the same weight for that matter). To have an expectation that the PIR-1 wouldn't outperform the Cheetah or MLX in MG usage would be a bit nutter if you ask me. It obviously should outclass other mechs in their usage as it has the ability to carry more of them as defined by BT and that defines the PIR's purpose.

As per lore, the Piranha is a dangerous mech when part of a pack (the team can play that role rather than a Star of other PIR's), and absolutely devastating to other mechs when they give up their back. This is how the PIR is described in BT, why do you (generalizing here) think some us wanted it? Because it was supposed to be a formidable light to add to the game, and it is just as described.

General quick play stats is sufficient, how PGI balances is a mystery sometimes. I don't think there are any roles other than killing in MWO anyways, certainly no real reconnaissance roles.

[kuma8877]

Nightbird, on 09 April 2018 - 05:23 PM, said:

General quick play stats is sufficient, how PGI balances is a mystery sometimes. I don't think there are any roles other than killing in MWO anyways, certainly no real reconnaissance roles.

There aren't really defined roles per se in the current state of MWO, but in the context of removing mechs from the field, the method/type of offensive engagement capabilities/range is itself a definable role (brawler, skirmisher, sniper, flanker, backstabber, etc) as is the application and type of countermeasures carried (anti missile, anti lock (ecm), stealth) . In other words, the number of possible combat sustainable lethal loadout combinations either mech can field needs to be accounted for when discussing OPness.

The Cheetah can be made very lethal (and is) at all ranges with a large variety of weapon types and can utilize both ECM, AMS and actually functional JJ's to boot. The PIR has mini dakka and little laser combos (with no weight for heat control) with a silly dash of AMS thrown in while being forced to close the gap to get to potential victims. Honestly, i's hardly a comparison other than they fall in the light category together.

Damnedtroll, on 09 April 2018 - 05:09 PM, said:

In battletech, a weapon system is build to be useful for centuries,...and foremost it's a game !

Make sure to read the whole thread to see the larger point I'm trying to make.

Edited by kuma8877, 09 April 2018 - 06:47 PM.

[Nightbird]

kuma8877, on 09 April 2018 - 06:42 PM, said:

The Cheetah can be made very lethal (and is) at all ranges with a large variety of weapon types and can utilize both ECM, AMS and actually functional JJ's to boot. The PIR has mini dakka and little laser combos (with no weight for heat control) with a silly dash of AMS thrown in while being forced to close the gap to get to potential victims. Honestly, i's hardly a comparison other than they fall in the light category together.

Actually, the Cheeta is the same type as the Piranha, the close range brawler. While the Piranha is slightly faster and is smaller, the Cheeta is more mobile with JJs and stealthier with ECM. Both get in very close for the kill.

I know people try to put mid-long range things on the Cheeta, they don't work.

[topgun505]

The problem was the PIR being introduced in the first place. I would have thought it would have been blindingly obvious to anyone that that mech would make balancing MGs essentially impossible. Make the MG usable on the PIR-1 but not overpowered? But if you do that, then any mechs that can't boat 6 or more would find MGs useless. Leave the MGs alone, and the PIR becomes a OP crit-monster that overshadows any other light. Really it isn't the mech as much as just the sheer quantity of hardpoints. About the only way you can fix it without making MGs worthless is you either have MGs do essentially 0 damage to armor so that you have to take some other weapons as well that can melt the armor so your MGs can then be effective (or else you just have to use a MG-boat to do nothing but scavenge open mechs) .... or you have to give the PIR such huge negative quirks that it finally balances out.

[SeventhSL]

topgun505, on 09 April 2018 - 07:55 PM, said:

The problem was the PIR being introduced in the first place. I would have thought it would have been blindingly obvious to anyone that that mech would make balancing MGs essentially impossible. Make the MG usable on the PIR-1 but not overpowered? But if you do that, then any mechs that can't boat 6 or more would find MGs useless. Leave the MGs alone, and the PIR becomes a OP crit-monster that overshadows any other light. Really it isn't the mech as much as just the sheer quantity of hardpoints. About the only way you can fix it without making MGs worthless is you either have MGs do essentially 0 damage to armor so that you have to take some other weapons as well that can melt the armor so your MGs can then be effective (or else you just have to use a MG-boat to do nothing but scavenge open mechs) .... or you have to give the PIR such huge negative quirks that it finally balances out.

Yes!! This is why I supported the FireMoth. It was so obvious the Piranha's crazy amount of hard points was going to cause issues but people voted for it so PGI gave them what they asked for.

[Vellron2005]

Looks like classic PGI to me..

One mech needs nerfs. Nerfing the weapon it uses is the solution.

Nuke them all and let the gods sort them out approach as per friggin' usual..

Guess my Myst Lynx's 5 minutes in the spotlight are over..

Oh well..

[Jackal Noble]

SeventhSL, on 09 April 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

Yes!! This is why I supported the FireMoth. It was so obvious the Piranha's crazy amount of hard points was going to cause issues but people voted for it so PGI gave them what they asked for.

So the MG boating dillema becomes a hitreg one?

[Battlemaster56]

JackalBeast, on 10 April 2018 - 12:03 AM, said:

So the MG boating dillema becomes a hitreg one?

Atleast he and no one else vote for the Howler, because that mech would never even sell well or even bw consider to be used unless given fod quirks to balance out problems.

[Darian DelFord]

The funny thing is.... The Piranha the Cheetah and the Myst Lynx can all be dealt with so easily. People just don't want to do it.

[Dogstar]

Darian DelFord, on 10 April 2018 - 04:21 AM, said:

The funny thing is.... The Piranha the Cheetah and the Myst Lynx can all be dealt with so easily. People just don't want to do it.

You and others keep saying this but it's not true, it's just a logical fallacy, and it doesn't get any truer when you keep repeating it.

Some pilots, in some situations, have no trouble dealing with OP lights. Other pilots, in other situations, are complete toast.

From the level of ire on the forums it seems that more players are getting toasted than is sensible.

[Mystere]

Nightbird, on 09 April 2018 - 04:27 PM, said:

I said it last page, I'll say it again. Balance based on performance. If stats say the Piranha is overperforming the Cheeta, nerf it buff the latter. If not, don't.

FTFY as I am really sick of the nerf race to the bottom.

[Darian DelFord]

Mystere, on 10 April 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

FTFY as I am really sick of the nerf race to the bottom.

You and me both....... my poor Jenners

[Nightbird]

Mystere, on 10 April 2018 - 07:23 AM, said:

FTFY as I am really sick of the nerf race to the bottom.

To explain, in my mind, the Cheeta today is on par with the best of assaults, heavies, mediums in its ability to greatly and consistently steer your team to victory.

Edited by Nightbird, 10 April 2018 - 09:17 AM.

[Requiemking]

Nightbird, on 10 April 2018 - 09:04 AM, said:

To explain, in my mind, the Cheeta today is on par with the best of assaults, heavies, mediums in it's ability to greatly and consistently steer your team to victory.

Here is the issue with a lot of balance decisions in game. There are a couple of factions of incredibly loud/butthurt Assault pilots who seem to be under the impression that, because they pilot a 100 ton, 30 million Cbill, fully tricked-out Assault mech, they should be able to completely stomp the battlefield without fear of anything save another Assault mech. These players hate the fact that a Light can harm them, let alone kill them, and as such they constantly whine and scream about Lights being OP. They often bring up TT and MW4 as reasons for why Lights should suck, without even understanding why Lights were the way they were in those games.

Edited by Requiemking, 10 April 2018 - 09:12 AM.

[Kaeb Odellas]

Do we have any information as to the nature or extent of these nerfs?