139 replies to this topic

[Angel of Annihilation]

Alexander of Macedon, on 11 April 2018 - 10:43 AM, said:

IS can lose their tonnage advantage in FP as soon as clan 'mechs lose their exclusivity on half-slot FF+ES, two-slot XL, XL that can survive a ST loss, two-slot DHS, and decreased tonnage+slot requirements on all weapons.

IS gets more tonnage in large part because their tonnage is generally less efficiently used.

Oh don't start this BS. It just shows you don't have a clue about the game.

I own 99 IS mechs and 101 Clan mechs, pretty much a dead even split and I can tell you without a doubt that IS mechs don't have an issue competing.

Take my MAD 5D. I just reconfigured it. 3 x LPL, 2 x ER ML and 2 x SRM 4s. 18 DHS on a 300 Light engine. Grand total of 48 alpha. 1st QP match out, 3 Kills, 2 KMDD, 2 Solo Kills and nearly 80 damage. Guess what that is right in there with what my Clan Marauders IICs do except my Marauder IIC is armed with 3 HLL, 4 MPLs and 27 DHS on a bigger engine that allow it to run about 10 kph faster than my MAD 5D. That is a whopping 82 Alpha or nearly twice that of the MAD 5D so how the hell does my 75 ton IS MAD 5D put out the same numbers?

Easy. It is much more agile (nearly twice as Agile as the MAD IIC), doesn't have to deal with ghost heat (because the IS doesn't get a penalty for using 3 LPLs like the Clans do), runs much cooler overall despite having only 18 DHS (thanks to much cooler IS weapons), is able to fire its weapons much more often than the Clan mech (due to much shorter cooldowns and beam duration) and can utilize its firepower more effectively(again due to the shorter beam durations allowing for much more effective concentration of firepower).

Point is, you have to stop looking at the raw numbers and start looking at how the mechs perform in actual matches. The MAD 5D I have can react faster due to its better agility and has a hell of alot more up time on its weapons meaning I am able to take advantage of many more firing opportunities as they present themselves, opportunities I couldn't take advantage of on the Clan mech due to how much longer my weapons remain on cooldown. The result is I am firing more often with my IS mech and taking less damage so over the course of a match, my performance ends up equaling out between the two mechs despite the 10 ton different in weight and the fact the MAD IIC uses this supposedly, super, overpowered Clan Tech.

Honestly there is little that frustrates me more in this game than the playerbase's general inability to look past the raw numbers whenever they talk balance.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Lily from animove, on 11 April 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

if you build your mech crap yes it is.

Bad evasion. Show me, say, an IS 65-tonner that can mount a sustainable 60-80dmg laservom alpha with a 325-rating engine and 12-16 external DHS. The whole IS schtick is living long enough to get into close range and force clammers to ride the heat threshold or banking on your skill for better trades at extreme range. It's more reliable than it used to be, but it ain't great. Not that I expect rational discourse from Wolf loyalists as anything more than a rare treat.

Gotta love the irony of Assassin OP cries coming from people who spend half their time blaming imbalance on other people being bad, though. Memo dated a few months ago: shoot 'em in the legs.

[Lupis Volk]

InspectorG, on 11 April 2018 - 11:47 AM, said:

IN THE BROWN SEA, STUPIDITY IS OP...

FTFY

[Alexandra Hekmatyar]

process, on 11 April 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

IS/Clan balance theoretically happens at a 1v1 level, as in a 60 ton IS mech should be on par with a 60 on Clan mech. Frankly, no amount of balance will save you from a well-coordinated 12 Annihilator or 12 Assassin stomp, nor should it. In FW, teamwork is OP.

Kinda counts for every team that all has the same mechs and same builds.
Could prolly work out even on an ice fridge (ferret) rush.

[Yondu Udonta]

Viktor Drake, on 11 April 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Take my MAD 5D. I just reconfigured it. 3 x LPL, 2 x ER ML and 2 x SRM 4s. 18 DHS on a 300 Light engine. Grand total of 48 alpha. 1st QP match out, 3 Kills, 2 KMDD, 2 Solo Kills and nearly 80 damage. Guess what that is right in there with what my Clan Marauders IICs do except my Marauder IIC is armed with 3 HLL, 4 MPLs and 27 DHS on a bigger engine that allow it to run about 10 kph faster than my MAD 5D. That is a whopping 82 Alpha or nearly twice that of the MAD 5D so how the hell does my 75 ton IS MAD 5D put out the same numbers? Easy. It is much more agile (nearly twice as Agile as the MAD IIC), doesn't have to deal with ghost heat (because the IS doesn't get a penalty for using 3 LPLs like the Clans do), runs much cooler overall despite having only 18 DHS (thanks to much cooler IS weapons), is able to fire its weapons much more often than the Clan mech (due to much shorter cooldowns and beam duration) and can utilize its firepower more effectively(again due to the shorter beam durations allowing for much more effective concentration of firepower).

Good lord your bracket builds are giving me cancer. Of course your MAD-5D doesn't need to deal with ghost heat, because you didn't put 4LPL in the MAD-5D, whereas you placed 3 HLL on your MAD-IIC. Your MAD-IIC couldn't put out more damage than your MAD-5D because you have excessive face time (about 2 seconds of exposure trying to fire 3 HLL w/o ghost heat) so you take more damage or having to deal with ghost heat firing all 3 HLL in an alpha which reduces your overall DPS. Essentially you are comparing a trash build with a trashier build and saying hey they are even.

Edited by Yondu the Ravager, 11 April 2018 - 07:37 PM.

[PocketYoda]

What a ******* crock of ****..

[Lily from animove]

Alexander of Macedon, on 11 April 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Bad evasion. Show me, say, an IS 65-tonner that can mount a sustainable 60-80dmg laservom alpha with a 325-rating engine and 12-16 external DHS. The whole IS schtick is living long enough to get into close range and force clammers to ride the heat threshold or banking on your skill for better trades at extreme range. It's more reliable than it used to be, but it ain't great. Not that I expect rational discourse from Wolf loyalists as anything more than a rare treat.

Gotta love the irony of Assassin OP cries coming from people who spend half their time blaming imbalance on other people being bad, though. Memo dated a few months ago: shoot 'em in the legs.

wheres that sustainable one on clanside?

[Lupis Volk]

The IS has advantages. It's just they have so many god dam Davions that all those advantages are replaced with none existing plot armour.

Edited by Lupis Volk, 12 April 2018 - 12:46 AM.

[Monkey Lover]

Good IS mechs and Good clan mechs im finding close enough for balance.
They killed low end IS mechs when they basically removed quirks. At least the skill tree removed the requirements to buy them.

Clans are still better with some "not op" builds due to less weight weapons or mass hardpoints
examples
Lights with srms
machinegun builds
streak boats

But over all closest Clan v IS balance i think we have ever had.

[Nema Nabojiv]

Monkey Lover, on 12 April 2018 - 12:53 AM, said:

Good IS mechs and Good clan mechs im finding close enough for balance.
They killed low end IS mechs when they basically removed quirks. At least the skill tree removed the requirements to buy them.

Clans are still better with some "not op" builds due to less weight weapons or mass hardpoints
examples
Lights with srms
machinegun builds
streak boats

But over all closest Clan v IS balance i think we have ever had.

As a guy who uses streaks a lot, the reason why clan ones are good is their range. Its not a problem to find IS mech with all the hardpoints you want, but the range is too much of a limiting factor. No amount of IS streak DPS can remedy that.

I wish IS streaks had 360m range. That would have opened some interesting options.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Alexander of Macedon, on 11 April 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

Bad evasion. Show me, say, an IS 65-tonner that can mount a sustainable 60-80dmg laservom alpha with a 325-rating engine and 12-16 external DHS. The whole IS schtick is living long enough to get into close range and force clammers to ride the heat threshold or banking on your skill for better trades at extreme range. It's more reliable than it used to be, but it ain't great. Not that I expect rational discourse from Wolf loyalists as anything more than a rare treat.

Gotta love the irony of Assassin OP cries coming from people who spend half their time blaming imbalance on other people being bad, though. Memo dated a few months ago: shoot 'em in the legs.

Show me a Clan heavy with 180 points of health in the CT (My Dragon's health, Clan highest is Orion IIC with a point less, skill nodes required, neato how its 15 tons lighter and still stronger at least in health.), show me a clan weapon that fires 25 PPFLD, show me a clan weapon that does 15 PPFLD with no spread and no charge up, show me a clan laser that has more than 200m optimal range but a duration under 0.75 seconds, show me a clan mech that puts out 50PPFLD anymore, show me a Clan mech that can take 3 78 damage alphas right to the CT without spreading and live (welcome to being an Annihilator, or actually any IS 100 tonner since Anni actually has the lowest total HP, just best hitboxes), and show me a clan heavy mech that is running 78 damage alphas and still considered "sustainable" (My fully skilled Hellbringer shuts down if you fire twice back to back).

Each side has its own things that the other isn't capable of doing. Though you're making up clan advantages if you're calling their heavy mech glass cannons sustainable.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 12 April 2018 - 01:58 AM.

[Aidan Crenshaw]

You guys have several text modules set up and ready for this kind of recurring thread, don't you?

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 11 April 2018 - 01:08 PM, said:

you clearly havent uesed clan missiles then. The only good ones are atms and streaks at the moment. Lurms are lurms and SRMs fire clouds of missiles useless beyond 150 meters.

Actually, yes, clan SRMs need serious spread buff, especially since they are the only not lock on option. And also clan mrms.

Not when multiple waves of 12 Linebacker rush is a thing. So either nerf the Linebacker, or keep the CSRM spread as is. Even Mercstar finds it too cheesy to run more than one wave.

Edited by El Bandito, 12 April 2018 - 02:07 AM.

[Mcgral18]

Lily from animove, on 12 April 2018 - 12:25 AM, said:

wheres that sustainable one on clanside?

29 DHS 6 ERML Loki?

A lowly 42 Alpha, which can cool down very quickly
Typically, you drop DHS to mount a Large laser of personal flavor


I know I used it a fair bit, but that was many patches ago.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mcgral18, on 12 April 2018 - 02:15 AM, said:

29 DHS 6 ERML Loki?

A lowly 42 Alpha, which can cool down very quickly
Typically, you drop DHS to mount a Large laser of personal flavor


I know I used it a fair bit, but that was many patches ago.

Alexander specifically mentioned with an alpha between 60 and 80.

I remember loving the old 42 damage ERML build, but too many nerfs to ERML cooldown broke the sustained fire build so now its either high alpha or don't bring lasers. 6 MPL sorta replaces it though.

[Zergling]

Viktor Drake, on 11 April 2018 - 02:37 PM, said:

Take my MAD 5D. I just reconfigured it. 3 x LPL, 2 x ER ML and 2 x SRM 4s. 18 DHS on a 300 Light engine. Grand total of 48 alpha. 1st QP match out, 3 Kills, 2 KMDD, 2 Solo Kills and nearly 80 damage. Guess what that is right in there with what my Clan Marauders IICs do except my Marauder IIC is armed with 3 HLL, 4 MPLs and 27 DHS on a bigger engine that allow it to run about 10 kph faster than my MAD 5D. That is a whopping 82 Alpha or nearly twice that of the MAD 5D so how the hell does my 75 ton IS MAD 5D put out the same numbers?

Both of those builds are awful.

Edited by Zergling, 12 April 2018 - 02:41 AM.

[Nema Nabojiv]

El Bandito, on 12 April 2018 - 02:04 AM, said:

Not when multiple waves of 12 Linebacker rush is a thing. So either nerf the Linebacker, or keep the CSRM spread as is. Even Mercstar finds it too cheesy to run more than one wave.

Far less people are affected by linebacker rushes than tose affected by inability to do anything meaningful with clan srms in qp. It is a matter of priorities. I think there is no point to keep them as is just because someone sometimes uses cheesy builds in half dead gamemode.

[El Bandito]

Nema Nabojiv, on 12 April 2018 - 03:52 AM, said:

Far less people are affected by linebacker rushes than tose affected by inability to do anything meaningful with clan srms in qp. It is a matter of priorities. I think there is no point to keep them as is just because someone sometimes uses cheesy builds in half dead gamemode.

Except there are players that mostly play that half-dead game mode, as it actually offers something more than QP. We don't want it to be full dead, you see.

[B0oN]

Clans confirmed OP, nerf plox !

[Dragonporn]

Don't have any solid input on how it works in FW, but from ordinary matchmaking, things that strike me most about difference in IS vs. Clan are:
IS - extremely tough mechs, able to withstand insane amounts of damage even without Survival skill tree, choice of engine, more streamlined, easy-to-understand builds.
Clans - omni flexibility, which allows quite cheezy builds, able to dish out pretty insane alphas, melting or outright killing mech right there, along with huge weapon range advantage.

More prone to IS personally (aesthetically mostly), but I find both techs to be quite equal, generally in terms of fun, variety and builds. For me, both are equally effective anyway, I can't say that either of my Clan or IS mechs obviously overperforms one another.