116 replies to this topic

[Jubblator]

Machineguns should not do damage to armored components at all...period.

[kuma8877]

Jubblator, on 17 April 2018 - 03:16 PM, said:

Machineguns should not do damage to armored components at all...period.

If you have armor on your components, they don't. Or are you saying no damage to armor at all?

[mistlynx4life]

I haven't read the entire thread but we've had this discussion before: MG boats are very squishy. Yes, your armor will disintegrate before their hail of bullets... at close-range with steady Line of Sight. So they aren't OP because it's a very high risk for reward ratio. If you find yourself with single-digit armor across your rear and then upset that you died to 12MGs in your back, well, learn the lesson. Some people are bringing tiny 'mechs with lots of MGs and looking for squishy rear armor. Allocate armor accordingly and aim to kill with your back to the wall when necessary, and don't ever go off alone and act surprised that you got chewed up. I'm telling you right now: I'm a Lynx pilot and I actively seek out chunky loners and I'm completely content to take you to cherry CT even if it means I lose the duel. We aren't overpowered, we're unexpected.

[Angel of Annihilation]

mistlynx4life, on 18 April 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

I haven't read the entire thread but we've had this discussion before: MG boats are very squishy. Yes, your armor will disintegrate before their hail of bullets... at close-range with steady Line of Sight. So they aren't OP because it's a very high risk for reward ratio. If you find yourself with single-digit armor across your rear and then upset that you died to 12MGs in your back, well, learn the lesson. Some people are bringing tiny 'mechs with lots of MGs and looking for squishy rear armor. Allocate armor accordingly and aim to kill with your back to the wall when necessary, and don't ever go off alone and act surprised that you got chewed up. I'm telling you right now: I'm a Lynx pilot and I actively seek out chunky loners and I'm completely content to take you to cherry CT even if it means I lose the duel. We aren't overpowered, we're unexpected.

MGs are a hit scan weapon. All you need to get a steady line of sight is to be able to hold your cursor on the mech your firing at. Then the bullets magically "curve" to hit the mech. Maybe if you actually had to lead your target with MGs, maybe then 12 MGs wouldn't be OP.

[Requiemking]

Viktor Drake, on 18 April 2018 - 03:17 PM, said:

MGs are a hit scan weapon. All you need to get a steady line of sight is to be able to hold your cursor on the mech your firing at. Then the bullets magically "curve" to hit the mech. Maybe if you actually had to lead your target with MGs, maybe then 12 MGs wouldn't be OP.

And you need to be within 130 meters of your target in a mech made of plastic coathangers and old tin foil.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Requiemking, on 18 April 2018 - 03:21 PM, said:

And you need to be within 130 meters of your target in a mech made of plastic coathangers and old tin foil.

Have you ever really paid attention to just how hard it is to kill a light mech? I have seen light mechs run right through the entire murder ball, dropping arty strikes as they go, while 6-7 mechs are doing their utmost to kill it and then watch the light mech waltz away laughing. Trying versing the firepower of 6-7 enemy mechs in an Annihilator and tell me what happens?

The only time light mechs are in danger is if they are stupid and stand still like a moron, get ambushed while they are standing still like a moron or some random mech managed to catch them with a pair of heavy gauss rifles or some such. I mean yeah sure, eventually they will suffer the death of a thousand cuts because the 1 or 2 points of damage you might manage to do when your lasers as they run by will add up over time but light mechs are by far the hardest mech in the game to kill.

[Requiemking]

Viktor Drake, on 18 April 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

Have you ever really paid attention to just how hard it is to kill a light mech? I have seen light mechs run right through the entire murder ball, dropping arty strikes as they go, while 6-7 mechs are doing their utmost to kill it and then watch the light mech waltz away laughing. Trying versing the firepower of 6-7 enemy mechs in an Annihilator and tell me what happens?

The only time light mechs are in danger is if they are stupid and stand still like a moron, get ambushed while they are standing still like a moron or some random mech managed to catch them with a pair of heavy gauss rifles or some such. I mean yeah sure, eventually they will suffer the death of a thousand cuts because the 1 or 2 points of damage you might manage to do when your lasers as they run by will add up over time but light mechs are by far the hardest mech in the game to kill.

They really aren't. They are actually quite easy to kill if you know what you are doing. Especially since they don't have the armor or structure to survive more than a couple Splat alphas at most. Problem is, nobody brings Splat to QP anymore since the maps that were good for that style of play either got revamped to Sniper maps or don't support Incursion and Escort.

Edited by Requiemking, 18 April 2018 - 04:03 PM.

[mistlynx4life]

Quote

Have you ever really paid attention to just how hard it is to kill a light mech? I have seen light mechs run right through the entire murder ball, dropping arty strikes as they go, while 6-7 mechs are doing their utmost to kill it and then watch the light mech waltz away laughing.

In that scenario, don't shoot the Light. He's a distraction. If you're turning that many 'mechs in his direction, he's doing his job. Arties don't matter. But then I ask - where are *your* Lights? Why aren't they up front screening for this? Why are you so densely packed that nobody can get a clear shot? This isn't about overpowered Lights, this is about not using anti-Light tactics. You've just described my behavior half the time but I don't even use strikes, I just look to dance around and tie up five or six times my tonnage while my buddies blast open their rear components or they hit each other with friendly fire or overheat. And this has nothing to do with machine guns.

Quote

The only time light mechs are in danger is if they are stupid and stand still like a moron, get ambushed while they are standing still like a moron or some random mech managed to catch them with a pair of heavy gauss rifles or some such.

... or if they run out of ammo, which will definitely happen soon if they aren't exercising serious self-control. They aren't in danger standing still - sometimes standing still is what makes the opponent fire a shot they've been leading wide. It's unexpected. The only time Lights are in danger is when they encounter other Lights or some Streak Mediums. Which isn't typical behavior because most folks don't play anti-Light builds - it's easier to post on the forums about Lights and machine guns being OP.

[PocketYoda]

Andi Nagasia, on 15 April 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

2 seconds? i doubt that,
most of my mechs have only 8-6 back armor(yes if you see me in game, my back is pretty weak, )
that said even with x3Damage due to crits it would have a PIR 4-5 seconds to core our a 55Ton mech from behind,
a 75Ton mech would be 5-7 seconds, assuming you only hit Rear-CT, and they didnt twist at all during that time,

i would also like to point out that a VPR with 9 Heavy Smalls will do 58Damage in less than 2 seconds,
coring out most mechs its weight or lighter, and in 2nd alpha can kill a 75Ton Mech,
and thats without Crits, with Crits it'll do about 68-73damage per alpha,

ive run tests with the PIR seeing how long it takes for it to eat threw back armor,
what ive seen you need to ignore a PIR for it to get the best of you, which is the same for most mechs,
like i said before, stop panicking when fighting a PIR, just take your time and kill it,

Welp someone did the math in another thread and 12 armor was 3.9 secs with 12 mgs and a couple of lasers which is standard Piranha / MLX fair.. so 6 back armor would be very much 2secs

A viper is a lot slower, larger and easier to kill..

Also remember now MGs have had a tiny nerf only tiny though..

Edited by Samial, 18 April 2018 - 06:25 PM.

[Xiphias]

Viktor Drake, on 18 April 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

Have you ever really paid attention to just how hard it is to kill a light mech? I have seen light mechs run right through the entire murder ball, dropping arty strikes as they go, while 6-7 mechs are doing their utmost to kill it and then watch the light mech waltz away laughing. Trying versing the firepower of 6-7 enemy mechs in an Annihilator and tell me what happens?

The only time light mechs are in danger is if they are stupid and stand still like a moron, get ambushed while they are standing still like a moron or some random mech managed to catch them with a pair of heavy gauss rifles or some such. I mean yeah sure, eventually they will suffer the death of a thousand cuts because the 1 or 2 points of damage you might manage to do when your lasers as they run by will add up over time but light mechs are by far the hardest mech in the game to kill.

This is only the case because people can't aim. I have no problem killing lights most of the time and a good pilot with 2xgauss can easily cripple/kill a light in 1-2 shots. If a light is running through 6-7 mechs all focusing on it it just means that your team is terrible. Lights are constantly in danger of getting oneshotted by twin gauss or heavy gauss.

Lights are only the hardest mech to kill if your aim is poor. They might be the hardest to hit, but they have the least armor and the least weapons. That's part of why you don't see lights dominating in Solaris, when a light gets focused and the pilot can aim they die pretty quickly.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Samial, on 18 April 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

Welp someone did the math in another thread

Yes, "someone" did try to math it out ... with the Altas vs. Mist Lynx in Tourmaline as reference point.

Samial, on 18 April 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

and 12 armor was 3.9 secs with 12 mgs and a couple of lasers which is standard Piranha / MLX fair..

Interestingly enough his calculations came to 6 seconds which you now turn into 3.9s wich is kinda close to your then expressed assumption that in game it would be 4- 5 seconds with the lasers (still on that Atlas).
Now the funny thing was that I did actually test my PIR-1 against that particular Atlas with just mgs and then again with mgs + lasers. Both needed about 3 to 3.5 seconds to OPEN the Atlas' back ... it took another 1.5s to 2s till its med lasers were critted out and from there it took 2.5 to 3.5 seconds until the mech died ... all while both mechs standing completely still and the PIR being within optimal range for machine guns and its lasers with a perfect angle onto rear CT.

Samial, on 18 April 2018 - 06:19 PM, said:

so 6 back armor would be very much 2secs

More numbers pulled from your back side?

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 18 April 2018 - 10:37 PM.

[Jounin Astray]

I like the part where no one included lag in any of these calculations where you can one-shot these paper-armored lights. If they have a decent connection? Yes, they are in 'big' trouble...if they have a Wally-World stutter latency, then you're...you're probably about to die when they just make that mad-dash for you. I've seen a guy in a Piranha do that exact thing, just race toward Assaults with reckless abandon and 300+ ping. It was the most hilarious-yet-game-breaking thing I'd ever seen.


But don't mention that...

[Der Geisterbaer]

Jounin Astray, on 18 April 2018 - 10:24 PM, said:

I like the part where no one included lag in any of these calculations where you can one-shot these paper-armored lights. If they have a decent connection? Yes, they are in 'big' trouble...if they have a Wally-World stutter latency, then you're...you're probably about to die when they just make that mad-dash for you. I've seen a guy in a Piranha do that exact thing, just race toward Assaults with reckless abandon and 300+ ping. It was the most hilarious-yet-game-breaking thing I'd ever seen.

Ah, so now we're back to the "lag shield" that prevents Lights from being killed.
It's not as if there are server authoritive mechanisms at work to minimize "lag shield". And certainly "Wally World stutter latency" only works in one direction thus any light - and machine gun PIR in particular - will always hit targets without any problems even if the target is lagging like hell.

Jounin Astray, on 18 April 2018 - 10:24 PM, said:

But don't mention that...

Then how about actually doing just that? ~sigh~

[Jounin Astray]

Der Geisterbaer, on 18 April 2018 - 11:12 PM, said:

Ah, so now we're back to the "lag shield" that prevents Lights from being killed.
It's not as if there are server authoritive mechanisms at work to minimize "lag shield". And certainly "Wally World stutter latency" only works in one direction thus any light - and machine gun PIR in particular - will always hit targets without any problems even if the target is lagging like hell.



Then how about actually doing just that? ~sigh~

....Did I not..?

[Racerxintegra2k]

Its inconceivable to me that people still defend this mech. The Piranha 1 is a Cancer in this game. The combination of Torso mounted 12 machine guns makes it MUCH harder to kill than the Myst Lynx. It has laser backups and on top of that its much faster than the Myst Lynx. The Myst Lynx has risk vs rewards. The piranha is broken out right. No one has been able to give me a satisfactory response to how is it balanced to the Inner Sphere. Its not even Balanced to its clan counterparts.

PS: What i find totally funny is in Solaris 7 2vs2 they actually put the Kodiak-3 and Piranha-1 the 2 game breaking mechs for their respective times in the same division. Came across that combo last night with two great pilots. Good Luck with that one.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Racerxintegra2k, on 19 April 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

Its inconceivable to me that people still defend this mech.

At the same time I'm kinda "surprised" that people still make false claims about this mechs capabilities ... or rather straight up lie about what it can do.

Racerxintegra2k, on 19 April 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

The Piranha 1 is a Cancer in this game. The combination of Torso mounted 12 machine guns makes it MUCH harder to kill than the Myst Lynx.

Somehow my Mist Lynx regularly survives 3 full 4 x SSRM-4 alphas while my PIR-1 tends to bite the dust after the second one. Not to mention some Gauss + SSRM combos that my Lynx survived while the PIR died instantly.

Racerxintegra2k, on 19 April 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

It has laser backups and on top of that its much faster than the Myst Lynx. The Myst Lynx has risk vs rewards. The piranha is broken out right.

Let's see:

MLX typically 27km/h slower but still fast enough to run circles around assaults.
MLX more armor and structure
MLX jump capable and thus more maneuverable
MLX with stronger energy alphas for breaching armor proteced zones
MLX with superior FoV due to less obstructed cockpit.

Racerxintegra2k, on 19 April 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

No one has been able to give me a satisfactory response to how is it balanced to the Inner Sphere.

Maybe because that's yet another instance of moving goal posts? Let's just ignore the fact that the very premise of IS vs. Clan is that there are things that one side can while the other can't and just ask this: When did this "discussion" shift from "12 machine guns do insane damage" to "how is the PIR-1 balanced against IS?" exactly?

And where exactly is your proof? Because so far all we got from you are allegly "self-evident" claims about Piranhas being "cancer" or being "outright broken". The burden of (actual) proof for said claims is on you and not on those who don't share your POV.

Racerxintegra2k, on 19 April 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

Its not even Balanced to its clan counterparts.

I guess it never occurred to you that there are no "clan counterparts" to begin with. Both the MLX and ACH builds with 6 to 8 machine guns actually have a somewhat different role than the PIR and other mechs of the light weight class.

Racerxintegra2k, on 19 April 2018 - 03:23 AM, said:

PS: What i find totally funny is in Solaris 7 2vs2 they actually put the Kodiak-3 and Piranha-1 the 2 game breaking mechs for their respective times in the same division. Came across that combo last night with two great pilots. Good Luck with that one.

Yeah, your anecdotal evidence becomes outright hilarious when considering the accounts given by dedicated PIR-pilots on how the allegedly OP PIR-1 gets annihilated by pretty much every mech in the medium, heavy and assault weight classes in 1vs.1. ... which is a direct contradiction to what many assault pilots claimed prior to Solaris.

So keep on entertaining me with your claims about "OP" PIR and your lack of understanding as to why people "defend" that "cancer" of mech.

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 19 April 2018 - 05:32 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Requiemking, on 18 April 2018 - 04:03 PM, said:

They really aren't. They are actually quite easy to kill if you know what you are doing. Especially since they don't have the armor or structure to survive more than a couple Splat alphas at most. Problem is, nobody brings Splat to QP anymore since the maps that were good for that style of play either got revamped to Sniper maps or don't support Incursion and Escort.

Well lets see, I have been playing since closed beta, am Tier 1 and back when we actually had leaderboards, usually managed to get top 20 or even into the Top 10. That doesn't make me the best player in the game, far from it but I am by no means a poor player who can't aim at least at an above average level. The reality is that if a light mech is running around at high speeds, ducking and dodging, your not going to often connect with solid shots. Instead your bushing him with your lasers doing a couple points of damage at most per volley. If you have exceptional aim and are using Dual Gauss or maybe dual heavy PPC or something with a large amount of pin point damage, you may connect with a devastating strike to a running light mech but more often than not the average player will miss these hits and if the light is fresh, often even if you do smack them with a solid alpha, they can still shrug it off.

Also you mention Splat. So your saying that if someone used a specialized build, they have the capability to deal with light mechs. Well by your own admission, your saying without that specialized build, lights become more difficult to deal with. Additionally you say no one runs splat so your saying that in the current meta, there is no build commonly used that deals with light mechs well. That being the case, aren't you basically agreeing that lights are a problem for the current meta??

However now we are going far afield especially since I don't feel lights in general are an issue, rather just lights using mass MGs. In general I enjoy playing light mechs and have about 30-40 variants in my stable. On the other hand because of the fact I enjoy playing lights and have so many of them, I can honestly say, without a shadow of a doubt, that lights are exceptionally durable.

We are talking

mistlynx4life, on 18 April 2018 - 06:09 PM, said:

In that scenario, don't shoot the Light. He's a distraction. If you're turning that many 'mechs in his direction, he's doing his job. Arties don't matter. But then I ask - where are *your* Lights? Why aren't they up front screening for this? Why are you so densely packed that nobody can get a clear shot? This isn't about overpowered Lights, this is about not using anti-Light tactics. You've just described my behavior half the time but I don't even use strikes, I just look to dance around and tie up five or six times my tonnage while my buddies blast open their rear components or they hit each other with friendly fire or overheat. And this has nothing to do with machine guns.


... or if they run out of ammo, which will definitely happen soon if they aren't exercising serious self-control. They aren't in danger standing still - sometimes standing still is what makes the opponent fire a shot they've been leading wide. It's unexpected. The only time Lights are in danger is when they encounter other Lights or some Streak Mediums. Which isn't typical behavior because most folks don't play anti-Light builds - it's easier to post on the forums about Lights and machine guns being OP.

We really aren't talking tactics here. Tactics aren't the problem. It is the mass MGs that are the problem. I had it happen to my twice last night. Once in my Atlas and once is my Griffin. Went from somewhat beat up mech but with plenty of structure and weapons to carry on the fight for quite some time, to stripped of weapons and useless in mere seconds. On the Atlas I actually had a bit of armor on my CT left over but he stripped that and something like 80 points of structure in about 3-4 seconds flat and all I could do is stand there looking at him with zero weapons to fight back with. In both cases, once I realized I had no weapons to fight back with I just stood there and let the inevitable happen. Tons of fun, let me tell you.

Then on the flip side, a few matches later, I managed to sneak up on an enemy mech and within seconds, stripped his back armor and every weapon he had, pretty much before he even reacted. Didn't get the kill sadly but it doesn't matter much if he can't actually fight or participate any more. I am absolutely sure he was having a blast standing there weaponless within 5 seconds or so of taking fire from my PIR.

[mistlynx4life]

Quote

We really aren't talking tactics here. Tactics aren't the problem. It is the mass MGs that are the problem.

I'm already drifting back away from MWO so I have no real horse in this race but the problem is that people are separating the two, like you shouldn't be thinking about tactics when considering a build. Those people are upset every time the proverbial boat rocks and look for things to blame. You want an excuse to not face MG builds instead of finding a build/tactic that works against them, so the claim is made that MGs are OP. I have literally linked a thread where I stated explicitly how to kill the MLX-G and avoid even being a target for them. It's not hard. Solaris divisions are messed up, no doubt about it. If you're in a 1v1 against a MG build and don't want to lose, back up against a wall and wait for the tie or for the other pilot to get bored. That's how you win if you don't have streaks or good aim or latency or whatever. It's that simple.

LRMs are *wicked* OP... for tracking targets and hitting them at a distance. ERPPC is *wicked* OP... at poptarting and disabling enemy ECM. SRMs splat builds are *wicked* OP... for brawling up close. There are very easy counter-measures to each of those (cover/AMS, rush, don't rush, etc.). MGs are *wicked* OP... for opening up and destroying components at close range. The counter-measure is taking them head-on. If you can't do that, avoid them. That's it. That's all. It makes for a really boring game when everyone only wants to play the same way though, hence the frustration (believe me, I know - I've only played Lynxes in Solaris so far and I only saw one Light the entire time). Every example so far has been easy to explain because the person isn't using those tactics. You had no weapons to fight him with? Why? Bring them next time! Use your arms! You cannot separate the builds from the tactics for the MG 'mechs because the MGs are the defining trait of the tactics on both sides. The title of this thread is "How is 12 machine guns not op?" and the answer is "Because they are mounted on tiny squishy 'mechs that can't jump or sustain fire for very long so just keep them in mind when choosing your load-out and then dodge them or shoot them literally like every other 'mech in the game." And yet we keep seeing the same threads... lol

I thought maybe the conversation was going to vindicate all my trash talk about the Lynxes being better than the Piranhas for a minute there though, lol. I'll take my jump jets against your speed any day.

[Angel of Annihilation]

mistlynx4life, on 19 April 2018 - 06:40 AM, said:

I'm already drifting back away from MWO so I have no real horse in this race but the problem is that people are separating the two, like you shouldn't be thinking about tactics when considering a build. Those people are upset every time the proverbial boat rocks and look for things to blame. You want an excuse to not face MG builds instead of finding a build/tactic that works against them, so the claim is made that MGs are OP.

This is where your wrong. End of the day the game is supposed to be about balance. If it wasn't the Clans wouldn't have gotten so neutered, Ghost heat wouldn't have got added, JJs would have actually still allowed you to jump, KDK-3 wouldn't have had to be nerfed into the ground, etc. The problem with the whole mass MG things is that you shouldn't have to alter the entire game around one weapon and I am not sure why so many people can't figure this out. You shouldn't have to rebuild all your mechs just in case you run into a PIR or other mass MG Mech nor should the entire meta have to adjust for them either.

Also one of the biggest problems with MGs when used in combination of 6 or more is the sheer frustration factor induced when your on the receiving end. The blunt truth is If a mechanic is inducing rage or frustration, that mechanic needs to be changed and that is where we are with mass MGs. Sure it is fun as hell to strip out an enemy mechs weapon or take out an Annihilator in seconds with a tiny little PIR, I enjoy doing that too but despite enjoying my PIR with mass MGs, I at least can admit there is a problem.

The issues with MGs are twofold. One, the way the crit mechanic works. When you have say 2,3 or 4 MGs, the crit chance is reasonable and you will occasionally lose a component if you are getting hit by MGs in a stripped area. Actually when you get around 4 MG, the chance to crit gets a bit out of control but until recently you only had a few mechs mounting 4 or more MGs. However when you start getting 6, 8,10 or even 12 MGs, the crit chance nears 100% due to stacking. With that amount of MGs you will almost immediately strip out over component in any exposed section of mech which is just ridiculous.

The Second issue is the damage rate at which MGs damage the structure of the mech. Due to the way they work, MGs eat through structure at about 2-3 times the rate they damage armor. Basically once you hit structure each MG becomes about 3 times as effective meaning you can eat through 60-80 points of structure in an extremely short amount of time.

What needs to occur is there to be a diminishing return on crit stacking meaning mounting 12 MGs would only give you a relatively small percentage higher crit chance than mounting 4 would. The second thing that needs to occur would be for MG DPS to be reduced to its Raw DPS with no special chance to proc 2-3x times it normal damage amount like it does now and also shouldn't effect structure any more than Armor.

Another possible solution would be to change the MGs so they aren't hit scan and you actually have to lead your targets.

Honestly possibly a combination of all three or some other change would work but what isn't working is the way MGs are currently working. It just can't be near 100% effective at stripping every component out of an exposed section in just a few seconds, nor can it continue to be able to saw through 60-80 points of structure in those same few seconds.

And this is coming from a player who has vehemently criticized PGI for its Nerf, Nerf Again, Nerf Some More policies they tend to have. I never call for an adjustment or nerf but this time it is 150% obvious there needs to be one.

[Windscape]

Just going to say if youre one of the ones complaining that u cant shoot a light mech, uhhh git gud


Seriously, learn how to line your shots.

If you are bad and cant do a lot about it, make sure you are always checking your surroundings for lights and call out to your team that there is a piranha in a certain grid on the map.