116 replies to this topic

[Requiemking]

fat4eyes, on 15 April 2018 - 09:01 PM, said:

To be fair, 9 heavy smalls ghost heat at 5, and at 4.5 tons is 50% heavier than 12 mgs, nevermind that their dps drops to around half once the heatcap is reached. MGs do too much damage to armor IMO, and because of that is outcompeting the small lasers at their job.

Machineguns do barely any damage to armor as is. Even HMGs take an inordinate amount of time to chew through armor, to the point where even most MLX-G pilots are packing 4 HSLs to burn through the armor before going to town with the MGs.

[Xetelian]

MechaBattler, on 15 April 2018 - 05:36 PM, said:

If you boat anything in the extreme it becomes an outlier. It's why we have ghost heat. I suggested this in another thread. But what if MGs had a bar like RACs do. Like an Ammo Feed Bar. The more MGs you have, the faster it fills. But past 4 MGs it increases the rate at which it fills. It could be a hard cap put your MGs on cooldown. Or it could effect rate fire or spread or both. But it would leave MGs still useful for mechs that can't boat them. And nerf mechs that are outliers.

Ghost mechanics for dealing with boating have gone over sooooo well in the past too.

[Vellron2005]

Player base: Piranha OP, please nerf!

PGI: Blanket nerf to Machine guns

Player base: o.0 PGI WTF?

Edited by Vellron2005, 15 April 2018 - 11:42 PM.

[Alan Hicks]

They are really good so what? Let the people use them until the new upcoming Nerf takes all the fun out of them, everyone knows the thing won't last forever.

[Curccu]

Vellron2005, on 15 April 2018 - 11:42 PM, said:

Some mediocre players getting touched badly by piranhas: Piranha OP, please nerf!
PGI: Blanket nerf to Machine guns
Player base to those who whined Piranha being OP: What did you expect, ghost heat to MGs? You asked for nerfs and PGI gave some...

FTFY

[Racerxintegra2k]

Requiemking, on 15 April 2018 - 09:07 PM, said:

Machineguns do barely any damage to armor as is. Even HMGs take an inordinate amount of time to chew through armor, to the point where even most MLX-G pilots are packing 4 HSLs to burn through the armor before going to town with the MGs.

Lets not forget besides the 12 machine guns the Piranha also has 3 energy slots to chew through armor.

[Darian DelFord]

I have tested extensively the 12 MG's against an atlas that is toro twisting while actively fighting me. It took 8136 rounds for me to kill him. I carry 9600 which is about average for MG Piranha's. I have repeated this test multiple times. Granted the results will be a tad different depending on mech and pilot. However I still used up way to much ammo trying to take on a fresh assault who knew how to fight.

MG's CAN NOT chew through armor as easily as people make it sound. Especially if the assault is fighting back.

Edited by Darian DelFord, 16 April 2018 - 04:07 AM.

[Racerxintegra2k]

Darian DelFord, on 16 April 2018 - 04:06 AM, said:

I have tested extensively the 12 MG's against an atlas that is toro twisting while actively fighting me. It took 8136 rounds for me to kill him. I carry 9600 which is about average for MG Piranha's. I have repeated this test multiple times. Granted the results will be a tad different depending on mech and pilot. However I still used up way to much ammo trying to take on a fresh assault who knew how to fight.

MG's CAN NOT chew through armor as easily as people make it sound. Especially if the assault is fighting back.

I see how that's a problem using most of your ammo to remove 5 times your weight from the enemy team.

[Seranov]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 April 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

I see how that's a problem using most of your ammo to remove 5 times your weight from the enemy team.

Okay, so that's the metric? I guess your assaults should have to expend ~1/5th or more of their total ammo to kill 20ton mechs, too, instead of the handful of ballistic rounds/missiles it takes now. I'd be down with that, would give me a reason to actually start playing the Piranhas I bought, but don't because I am a terrible Light pilot and know I will die instantly.

Edited by Seranov, 16 April 2018 - 05:58 AM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Xiphias, on 15 April 2018 - 07:24 PM, said:

Isn't this the same case for assaults like the MKII? The only reason they aren't doing massive damage every match is that they are the most dangerous thing on the battlefield and people know to focus them down. The fact that most of the time people are comfortable ignoring lights compared to almost any other target speaks volumes on the overall balance.

However Assaults are big, slow and clunky and that included the MK II. They are pretty easy to avoid and I never had any issues duking it out with even the KDK-3 back when it was the nastiest assault on the battlefield. I mean all you have to do with them is not stand in front of them and face tank it. A light mech with mass MGs though, you can't really out maneuver or hide from, all you can do is hope you either get lucky and score some good hits or they make a huge mistake.

DeadEye COTP, on 15 April 2018 - 07:49 PM, said:

You conveniently ignore everything that actually makes the Pirahna what it is, looking at raw dps numbers literally means nothing. It has the largest crit potential of any mech in the game. If you have any exposed component, which is incredibly likely for your back, you are instantly crippled in the first half a second. Go test it on any build that runs gauss and watch how laughably fast you crit it the second the component is exposed.

It's incredibly fast, and incredibly small which makes anything short of small/medium pulses or well placed ballistics useless. There hasn't been a light mech as potent as the Pir since before the Artic Cheater got nerfed.

You can make any argument you want and it makes no difference. Some of the best 1v1 pilots in the game, and PGI, both came together to decide it is the highest ranked light mech in Solaris along with the MLX which is the 2nd biggest boater of MG's.

(These same people almost exclusively run the PIR in QP... they must just be gluttons for punishment cause we all know these people just play to make their own lives hard and not go with the easiest killing machines)

See this is my biggest problem. Prime example was on Grim a few nights ago. I was in my MC MKII and went to engage a MAD IIC that was standing in front of me distracted.. I had mostly yellow armor at this time with orange on my right arm, in fact aside from the RA I was pretty fresh. Then this 6 MG Arctic Cheetah came up on my flank. Within seconds my right arm was gone. Before I could even swing my torso around on the light mech he managed to strip all my back armor and he also took out all the weapons on my RT and crippled my mech and of course when he saw me swing toward him, he just moved behind a rock before I could do 10 point of damage back on him. I then turned back to the MAD IIC and managed fire one volley at him before I found my LT and LA was stripped of stripped of weapons as well. This took all of 10-15 seconds to go from fresh deadly to useless. If it had been any other weapon on any other class of mech, it might have still taken my arm and ravaged my back armor but I would have still had the majority of my weapons intact.

Another example is while piloting my PIR with a 12 MG build. I came up behind this fresh Vindicator and within like 3 seconds I had stripped all his back armor and had torn him up so badly he couldn't fight back. He turned back to face me but I still had him downed and out of the match in less than 10 seconds. Was a Solo Kill and KMDD as well....10 seconds max. I just sat there marveling as I fired upon at at how fast he was losing structure and weapons. It looked like someone put him through the shredder. In fact that entire match was a marvel to me. I actually ran around bullying and corralling enemy mechs. I would open up on them with those 12 MG and mechs up to and including 100 ton Assault mechs would start twisting like mad and head for the nearest cover and I had a Wolfhound absolutely refuse to engage me. The second I came around a corner he would run away as fast as he could. The fact that my little 20 ton mech had such a dramatic impact on the enemy team just boggles my mind. Sure it was fun, but I can honestly say it isn't balanced.

[Mortalcoil]

Requiemking, on 15 April 2018 - 03:06 PM, said:

What exactly are they supposed to do? It's a glass cannon that boats 12 extremely short-ranged, ammo hungry weapons who's sole purpose is to empty your torso of weapons. It's sole advantage is speed, since it dies in pretty much one hit from a decent splat alpha.

only advantage... aside from having the highest heatless DPS int he game, aside from hit reg issues giving it the armor of an assault, aside from all of those MG's are in the torso's, aside from practically pin point, 0 travel time dps, and don't give me **** about Cone of fire on MG's, https://imgur.com/a/lYSje

[BTGbullseye]

Mortalcoil, on 16 April 2018 - 07:16 AM, said:

aside from practically pin point, 0 travel time dps, and don't give me **** about Cone of fire on MG's, https://imgur.com/a/lYSje

Yeah, they never did have a cone of fire, despite what people claim. At most, they hit 2 components if you're aiming at the point where they meet.

[Requiemking]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 April 2018 - 03:45 AM, said:

Lets not forget besides the 12 machine guns the Piranha also has 3 energy slots to chew through armor.

Which if said Piranha wants ammo he won't be using.

[Xiphias]

Viktor Drake, on 16 April 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

However Assaults are big, slow and clunky and that included the MK II. They are pretty easy to avoid and I never had any issues duking it out with even the KDK-3 back when it was the nastiest assault on the battlefield. I mean all you have to do with them is not stand in front of them and face tank it. A light mech with mass MGs though, you can't really out maneuver or hide from, all you can do is hope you either get lucky and score some good hits or they make a huge mistake.

Many (most?) assaults can also do significant damage out to 600m+, which from a range standpoint is harder to avoid that the ~200m range a MG can can engage. Assaults are easier to avoid, but harder to kill.

The fact that you avoid/focus assault mechs speaks to how much firepower they can put out and how dangerous they really are, a MKII will kill you faster than a Piranha, it's the more dangerous mech in that regard. There are also maneuvers that help against light (e.g backing up to a wall).

Really the issue is what you touched on in your last point, "all you can do is hope you either get lucky and score some good hits or they make a huge mistake." This is the problem, you don't need to get lucky to score hits on a Piranha, you just need to have a good aim. If you hit the Piranha it dies very quickly, the problem is that most players lack the skills to consistently hit it and rely on "luck shots".

Assault mechs on the other hand are more dangerous, but equally easy to hit and avoid, making them seem less good to many players.

This is why you see a large divide in opinions. Players that are able to consistently hit small fast targets like the Piranha generally don't consider them as powerful because they are easy to kill (glass cannons).

Similarly, these players consider assaults like the MKII more dangerous, because with a capable pilot they can kill you extremely fast and at considerable range (1-2 alphas can easily cripple most mechs). If the assault pilot has good aim it will kill you faster and farther away than a light will.

Players who have trouble hitting the Piranha will tend to over rate how strong it is. Similarly, players will worse aim will tend to underrate how effective assaults are.

A lot of what makes people complain about the Piranha is based in that they can't choose when to engage it rather than it being inherently stronger than all the other mechs.

I don't own Piranhas and I'm not weighing on on their balance discussion. The point I am trying to make is that even though the Piranha is strong, mechs like the MKII are significantly stronger and you see that in competitive play. Ignoring caps a comp team would almost always take a MKII over a Piranha simply because it has more firepower and more armor that makes it a more dangerous mech.

Mortalcoil, on 16 April 2018 - 07:16 AM, said:

only advantage... aside from having the highest heatless DPS int he game, aside from hit reg issues giving it the armor of an assault, aside from all of those MG's are in the torso's, aside from practically pin point, 0 travel time dps, and don't give me **** about Cone of fire on MG's, https://imgur.com/a/lYSje

Technically it doesn't have the highest possible heatless DPS in the game, the DW can beat it (I think 16.03 is actually the highest you can get). In more realistic terms something like this has a bit more DPS at 12.83 (14.83 with HMGs). Not a great build, but definitely in the realm of playability.

The idea that hitreg issues give Piranhas the armor of an assault is silly. If it's taking that much firepower it's an aim issue, not a hitreg issue. There are valid arguments that can be made against the Piranha, the idea that it has lot of effective armor is not one of them. I find them pretty easy to kill with most weapons unless I'm torso stacked and too close to them.

Spread argument aside, you do demonstrate that it takes a good 10s to burn through the back of that Atlas. Going from 8 to 12 MGs that ~7s to kill a mech from behind, hardly the "instant kill" that most people are arguing that it is,

[MechWarrior5152251]

Oh, this is one of those Table Top fanatics who thinks it should take 5 locusts to beat one Atlas...... This is a video game not a board game. No one would pilot the locusts if they were were worth 1/5th of a player.

[Requiemking]

MechWarrior5152251, on 16 April 2018 - 11:01 AM, said:

Oh, this is one of those Table Top fanatics who thinks it should take 5 locusts to beat one Atlas...... This is a video game not a board game. No one would pilot the locusts if they were were worth 1/5th of a player.

Exactly. He is as much an problem as a certain pair of pilots who think the game should be balanced around Assaults being the kings of the battlefield. I would say who they are, but thats name and shame, so no bueno there.

Edited by Requiemking, 16 April 2018 - 11:13 AM.

[Andi Nagasia]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 April 2018 - 03:45 AM, said:

Lets not forget besides the 12 machine guns the Piranha also has 3 energy slots to chew through armor.

you do understand the PIR only has 7tons free if you take the Max XL(you everyone takes on a 20Ton mech)
after 3Tons of MGs, and 1.5-3Tons of Lasers you only have 1-2.5Tons for Ammo, with is nothing for 12MGs,
so most of the time that MG PIR will not be taking lasers, infact they will strip arms for more Ammo,

a PIR with 4.5Tons of MG Ammo(no Back up weapons) can fire for only 75Seconds, not much really,
good PIR Pilots know to target things with their armor already gone, thats why PIRs get good damage and Kills,
because things are already opened up, the same reason Streaks give you great damage but not much else,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 16 April 2018 - 11:28 AM.

[Der Geisterbaer]

Andi Nagasia, on 16 April 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

you do understand the PIR only has 7tons free if you take the Max XL(you everyone takes on a 20Ton mech)

Actually the more common builds go for cXL-170 with all speed skill nodes to get to 148km/h. Arms and head are generally stripped to lower armor values as well until you get 8t of payload after installing the 4 required (double) heat sinks.

Andi Nagasia, on 16 April 2018 - 11:28 AM, said:

after 3Tons of MGs, and 1.5-3Tons of Lasers you only have 1-2.5Tons for Ammo, with is nothing for 12MGs,
so most of the time that MG PIR will not be taking lasers, infact they will strip arms for more Ammo,

Well, 3.5t of ammo, 3 cHSML and 12 machine guns perform decent enough - at least for me. Leave 2 machine guns out and add a light probe instead and things are just fine ...

https://mwo.smurfy-n...01dc0a077f95004

Edited by Der Geisterbaer, 16 April 2018 - 11:45 AM.

[Prototelis]

Viktor Drake, on 16 April 2018 - 06:19 AM, said:

Another example is while piloting my PIR with a 12 MG build.

This account has not played any lights since Season 16.

You're either playing an ALT and don't want us to see your actual stats or you're full of it.

[dario03]

Racerxintegra2k, on 16 April 2018 - 05:34 AM, said:

I see how that's a problem using most of your ammo to remove 5 times your weight from the enemy team.

1 pilot removed 1 pilot.