22 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

I was just thinking about this mech, thought I *may* have been able to bring it back out with Solaris, but its stuck up in Div2.

So I started thinking about when it was actually a decent mech like two years ago. Not really meta, but a decent brawler. You could load the thing up with a bunch of CSPLs or either CERSLs and a couple UAC10s and have some fun out in the queues with a relatively fast assault mech that carries the payload of a 75 ton mech of the same speed.

Since then its gotten bigger, its agility has been cut down to about a third of what it once was, its firepower for the CSPL build is 2/3rds what it once was, its CERSLs have 25% more duration than before and longer cooldowns, its UAC10s have much longer jam times and higher jam chances, but oh it got a +15 left and right torso armor buff IF you don't bring an omnipod that can put anything in the few mounts the mech gets that aren't the gorilla arms.


Why does PGI still think this mech is so good that it needs to be Div2 with the KDK-3 and not get any worthwhile quirks or agility buffs or really anything going for it. Even the recent jump jet buff of 10% more thrust "to bring them in line with the other classes" really doesn't feel as though they've brought it in line with other classes of jump jets, rather 1 class 1 jumpjet seems to be equal to a class 4 rather than 4 of them like the weight of the thruster, and the weight of the mech they're lifting, demands. Also the MASC of the mech just seems so slow now that it has such low base agility to boost with the MASC.


(not to mention the Timber Wolf still being regarded as the top mech, seriously how old is PGI's data, hopefully Solaris will be some sort of wake-up call for their mech vs mech balance)

[Requiemking]

Ol' Gigantor may have gotten a beating in some areas, but it's still got more agility in it than most Heavies. Other mechs have gotten it far worse since the Rescale.....

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2018 - 04:46 PM, said:

Ol' Gigantor may have gotten a beating in some areas, but it's still got more agility in it than most Heavies. Other mechs have gotten it far worse since the Rescale.....

Really kinda hate the constant blanket nerfs and over arching grand changes that ruin many mechs at once. Rescale, Engine Desync, Countless weapon nerfs, jump jet nerfs, agility nerfs by chassis rather than variant. PGI makes a huge quirk system so they can easily pinpoint specific chassis for adjustment and yet still manage to nuke the entire stable in a single patch repeatedly.

[Requiemking]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 23 April 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:

Really kinda hate the constant blanket nerfs and over arching grand changes that ruin many mechs at once. Rescale, Engine Desync, Countless weapon nerfs, jump jet nerfs, agility nerfs by chassis rather than variant. PGI makes a huge quirk system so they can easily pinpoint specific chassis for adjustment and yet still manage to nuke the entire stable in a single patch repeatedly.

Engine Desync was only needed because Assaults like the Kodiak became the dominant mechs after their primary predators, the Light mechs, got hit with the gigantic anti-Light nerf known as the Rescale. If the Rescale hadn't happened, or had been done properly, then Engine Desync wouldn't have happened.

[El Bandito]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

Engine Desync was only needed because Assaults like the Kodiak became the dominant mechs after their primary predators, the Light mechs, got hit with the gigantic anti-Light nerf known as the Rescale. If the Rescale hadn't happened, or had been done properly, then Engine Desync wouldn't have happened.

No, engine desync happened because big XL engine was clearly triumphing over small non-XL engines. Who cares about XL death if the big XL engine gives you enough agility to torso twist easily? Which made big XLs just as good as smaller Std engines in terms of sruvivability, but opened up more firepower options. Not to mention that Assaults with large engines, such as KDK-3 was able to turn on a dime, thus negating any mobility advantage smaller mechs have on it. The engine desync was absolutely necessary.

PGI did botch it up with their post desync values on certain mechs though.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

Engine Desync was only needed because Assaults like the Kodiak became the dominant mechs after their primary predators, the Light mechs, got hit with the gigantic anti-Light nerf known as the Rescale. If the Rescale hadn't happened, or had been done properly, then Engine Desync wouldn't have happened.

And this is where the quirk system comes in. Just throw neg quirks on the KDK-3 mobility if it is a problem in particular instead of nerfing EVERY assault mech in the game, every UAC in the game, and every other kodiak variant in the game.

Also I remember at the time of the desync and rescale people thought it would be a good thing thinking PGI would be sane and base both off of good mechs, or at least average mechs, but instead PGI goes the exact opposite and we have every mech balloon up and slow down (and people still complain about not being able to hit things up to Linebackers).

El Bandito, on 23 April 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

No, engine desync happened because big XL engine was clearly triumphing over small non-XL engines. Who cares about XL death if the big XL engine gives you enough agility to torso twist easily? Which made big XLs just as good as smaller Std engines in terms of sruvivability, but opened up more firepower options. Not to mention that Assaults with large engines, such as KDK-3 was able to turn on a dime, thus negating any mobility advantage smaller mechs have on it. The engine desync was absolutely necessary.

PGI did botch it up with their post desync values on certain mechs though.

This brings me again to the point where I'm saying that PGI constantly nerfs skill. STD engines were more durable, but the weakness of XL could be accounted for by using its benefits assuming the pilot was skilled enough to torso twist well. Now pilots can't overcome the weaknesses of an XL with any sort of skill and it becomes somewhat pointless to use an XL when an STD/LFE engine of a small size offers durability and equal firepower at the cost of only top speed.

[El Bandito]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 23 April 2018 - 07:14 PM, said:

This brings me again to the point where I'm saying that PGI constantly nerfs skill. STD engines were more durable, but the weakness of XL could be accounted for by using its benefits assuming the pilot was skilled enough to torso twist well. Now pilots can't overcome the weaknesses of an XL with any sort of skill and it becomes somewhat pointless to use an XL when an STD/LFE engine of a small size offers durability and equal firepower at the cost of only top speed.

Except TT skill is not really deep, anyone with decent experience can do it, which made Std engines obsolete. XL right now is still useful for boating big of firepower, while moving at acceptable speed, such as my 6xERLL Battlemaster-1G, or 2xGauss Warhammer-6R.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2018 - 07:20 PM, said:

Except TT skill is not really deep, anyone with decent experience can do it, which made Std engines obsolete. XL right now is still useful for boating big of firepower, while moving at acceptable speed, such as my 6xERLL Battlemaster-1G, or 2xGauss Warhammer-6R.

I'd assume only about 50% of the playerbase torso twists decently. I've had so many people try torso twisting so far that they expose their back that I've lost count, and even more who don't even do that. I've also mostly just given up on high speed, usually I go in the 50s for assaults and 60s for heavies that can change their engines. Generally 60's enough to keep pace with the assaults for my heavies, and Annihilator only goes 48 so I don't really need more speed on my assaults.

[Requiemking]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2018 - 06:29 PM, said:

No, engine desync happened because big XL engine was clearly triumphing over small non-XL engines. Who cares about XL death if the big XL engine gives you enough agility to torso twist easily? Which made big XLs just as good as smaller Std engines in terms of sruvivability, but opened up more firepower options. Not to mention that Assaults with large engines, such as KDK-3 was able to turn on a dime, thus negating any mobility advantage smaller mechs have on it. The engine desync was absolutely necessary.

PGI did botch it up with their post desync values on certain mechs though.

However, the issue of Assaults out-turning Lights only became an issue after all but 5 Lights got ballooned in size and took a corresponding mobility profile nerf, which in turn reduced their agility to dump truck levels.

Edited by Requiemking, 23 April 2018 - 07:43 PM.

[El Bandito]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2018 - 07:27 PM, said:

However, the issue of Assaults out-turning Lights only became an issue after all but 5s Light got ballooned in size and took a corresponding mobility profile nerf, which in turn reduced their agility to dump truck levels.

I am not only concerned with Lights, but also the Mediums. Fast Mediums should also be able to dance around Assaults.

[Troa Barton]

How is that mech any higher than Div 5?
We need a negative division to throw away trash mechs for salvage.
Melt it down for the 3rd place trophy Duncan!

[Requiemking]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2018 - 07:41 PM, said:

I am not only concerned with Lights, but also the Mediums. Fast Mediums should also be able to dance around Assaults.

True, and again, the issue of large-engined Assaults dominating the game so completely only became an issue after the Rescale, which in turn made Engine Desync necessary. If the Rescale had been done properly, or not at all, then Engine Desync would have been unnecessary, and thus would not have happened.

[El Bandito]

Requiemking, on 23 April 2018 - 07:45 PM, said:

True, and again, the issue of large-engined Assaults dominating the game so completely only became an issue after the Rescale, which in turn made Engine Desync necessary. If the Rescale had been done properly, or not at all, then Engine Desync would have been unnecessary, and thus would not have happened.

Nah, big engined Assaults dominating the game happened every since 5xLPL BLR-2C/BNC-3M became a thing. Then KDK-3 and MAD-IIC were released and sealed the deal.

[Mystere]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 23 April 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

Even the recent jump jet buff of 10% more thrust "to bring them in line with the other classes" ...

I tried out my Heavy Metal with a full complement of JJs. That "buff" was an utter joke.

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 23 April 2018 - 04:36 PM, said:

(not to mention the Timber Wolf still being regarded as the top mech, seriously how old is PGI's data, hopefully Solaris will be some sort of wake-up call for their mech vs mech balance)

Another complete joke.

Edited by Mystere, 23 April 2018 - 11:42 PM.

[Requiemking]

El Bandito, on 23 April 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

Nah, big engined Assaults dominating the game happened every since 5xLPL BLR-2C/BNC-3M became a thing. Then KDK-3 and MAD-IIC were released and sealed the deal.

It wasn't as big a deal prior to the Rescale because Lights were small enough and agile enough to exploit the fact that all the Meta builds of the time rarely used any hardpoint that was below chest height on the major mechs, save for the Black Knight.

[Angel of Annihilation]

The Executioner is still one of my favorite Assault mechs in the game, especially now that they added ST omnipods with lots of high mounted energy points. It runs 69 kph with tweak and can break 90 kph with MASC enabled which by the way can be enabled for a much longer period of time due to recent changes. It also has JJ which by the way have been buffed quite substantially with recent changes as well, meaning the mech can actually do something resembling jumps again. You can also mount absurd amounts of energy weapon firepower still. I run mine with 6 x MPL, 3 x ER SL and 1 x HLL for up to 75 alpha damage (60 Alpha without Ghost heat). It also has better than average hit boxes. Further it has the movement profile of a much lighter mech which is to say it has extreme agility for a 95 ton Assault mech.

Its disadvantages are its sheer size and much of its firepower is still stuck down in its knuckle dragger arms and the fact that to get any sort of decent firepower, you tend to have to mount smaller, much shorter ranged energy weapons due to lack of free tonnage an critical space. I also think it tends to be a mech with a high skill floor as you have a ton of moving parts to deal with. You got to be able to manage MASC, JJs and general movement, combined with a short to mid ranged, fast paced brawling style of combat, in a mech damn near as large as an Annihilator.

While I love my Executioner, when I play it, it takes nearly every ounce of concentration and effort I can muster in order to make it perform at a high level which unfortunately isn't relaxing at all. It I am in the right mood, I love to take it out and wreck face with it but if I am home from a long days work, worn out and just wanting to get some fun relax time in, the Executioner stays in the stable.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Viktor Drake, on 24 April 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

The Executioner is still one of my favorite Assault mechs in the game, especially now that they added ST omnipods with lots of high mounted energy points. It runs 69 kph with tweak and can break 90 kph with MASC enabled which by the way can be enabled for a much longer period of time due to recent changes. It also has JJ which by the way have been buffed quite substantially with recent changes as well, meaning the mech can actually do something resembling jumps again. You can also mount absurd amounts of energy weapon firepower still. I run mine with 6 x MPL, 3 x ER SL and 1 x HLL for up to 75 alpha damage (60 Alpha without Ghost heat). It also has better than average hit boxes. Further it has the movement profile of a much lighter mech which is to say it has extreme agility for a 95 ton Assault mech.

Its disadvantages are its sheer size and much of its firepower is still stuck down in its knuckle dragger arms and the fact that to get any sort of decent firepower, you tend to have to mount smaller, much shorter ranged energy weapons due to lack of free tonnage an critical space. I also think it tends to be a mech with a high skill floor as you have a ton of moving parts to deal with. You got to be able to manage MASC, JJs and general movement, combined with a short to mid ranged, fast paced brawling style of combat, in a mech damn near as large as an Annihilator.

While I love my Executioner, when I play it, it takes nearly every ounce of concentration and effort I can muster in order to make it perform at a high level which unfortunately isn't relaxing at all. It I am in the right mood, I love to take it out and wreck face with it but if I am home from a long days work, worn out and just wanting to get some fun relax time in, the Executioner stays in the stable.

There's a lot of synergy missing from that build, and synergy is what I love. A lone HLL negates any benefit of the MPLs, the ERSLs can't be fired with the MPLs and have longer durations than them, and in the end even the alpha strike through ghost heat only barely goes above the alpha of the generic laser builds all while having less range. Even going for the average laser alpha build you're faced with low mounts for the majority of your weaponry.

Then comes the whole issue of if its going to be a poking mech why not just bring a lighter and more agile mech so that you just take less damage in the first place since you don't have to expose as much to get shots off and you can get back to cover quicker. All the locked equipment positions and ferro instead of endo don't help it much either. With some agility quirks to make up for the massive weight of that 380xl maybe it could be a bit better.

[Mystere]

Viktor Drake, on 24 April 2018 - 02:26 PM, said:

It also has JJ which by the way have been buffed quite substantially with recent changes as well, meaning the mech can actually do something resembling jumps again.

How is it I am just not feeling the JJ improvements in my Heavy Metal? Or does the MASC actually help the JJs on the EXE?

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mystere, on 24 April 2018 - 04:01 PM, said:

How is it I am just not feeling the JJ improvements in my Heavy Metal? Or does the MASC actually help the JJs on the EXE?

I noticed the jump jets were better than they once were, but not really "good". They've moved from 8 tons of them giving you the ability to hover in place to 8 tons of them giving you the ability to jump over medium sized pebbles with a running start.


Also looking at the mobility stats of the Executioner I realize that it actually has *higher* mobility stats than the Hellbringer aside from decel. I had honestly gotten far too used to the Dragon with its mobility being about double that of the Hellbringer.

[Samantha Rbnsn1990]

I tried to like this stupid thing, I really did.

But it's just lacking somehow. It's 95 tons but it performs like a Summoner.

At least it has that auto-destruct mechanism.