39 replies to this topic

[LordNothing]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 10 May 2018 - 02:29 AM, said:

Sounds good to me. Lets XLs be more durable but not *too* durable for benefits they provide in weaponry (or speed if someone was still using them for that).

just enough to soak up another smallish alpha. somewhere in the 15-30 extra points to the sts, maybe another 5-10 points on the ct. and there would be a weight class multiplier so no immortal sts on lights. and its not free armor, you have to allocate tonnage if you want to use it.

[Stridercal]

So let's **** up the mech lab too while we're at it, because "whaaaaaaa XL engines have tradeoffs WHHHAHAAHAAHAHAHAHA..."

PGI, if you even consider doing some stupid change like this, you'll lose the few hardcore BT nerds you still have.

[Angel of Annihilation]

There IS XL has already has a balancing mechanic, it is called quirks.

Seriously, there is a reason IS mechs generally have tons and tons of armor and structure quirks and that is because they were originally added to compensate for the inherent vulnerability that IS XL engines have. Consequently, because these quirks are there to compensate for the durability issues of the IS XL engine, these quirks become VERY POWERFUL when you are mounting Standard or LFE engines instead of XL engines.

So any change to the IS XL engine means structure and armor quirks get removed across the board. Also if you change the IS XL engine, then there is no point to using a LFE so an entire technology becomes irrelevant.

Also if you change the IS XL, all of a sudden you have every IS mech mounting an XL engine which means the entire IS line up of weapons would need to be nerfed to compensate for the buff the new and improved IS XL engine would get. Basically IS weapons would have to get the Clan treatment of massively long burn times, burst ACs, extreme heat, long cooldowns, etc.

But hey you get improved IS XL engines. I mean it doesn't matter that every IS mech in the game no matter what engine is mounted would have to receive massive nerfs right?

[Andi Nagasia]

@Viktor Drake
Armor and Structure Quirks arnt really their to balance IS-XL,
as they would have to be extreme to do so, and such would skew the balance with LFEs / STD Engines with them,

most of the time Armor and Structure Quirks are their to balance Bad Geo or weapon Placement,
such as low arms on a nova, or a long nose on a crab, they are rarely used to balance equipment,

please note if IS OmniMechs are released, Armor / Structure Quirks would be used to balance Engines,
as all OmniMech are unable to change their engines, and as such they would have to use them for balance,

Edited by Andi Nagasia, 10 May 2018 - 10:45 AM.

[process]

It's a novel concept, but I think it's more complicated than it needs to be. The more practical challenge that is PGI is already super slow to make hitbox adjustments, and this idea basically increases that responsibility by 25%.

HP quirks are more straightforward, though I would do it differently than how it's current implemented. For instance, let's say we figure out Dragons take CT hits 20% more often than a baseline mech. The CT HP should be increased 20%, proportionally divided by armor and structure -- 2:1. So that's 16 more armor and 8 more structure. I also think dynamic geometry should factor in, like conditional missile boxes; they shouldn't count as their own components, but again add +armor and +structure to the component they host in.

XL engines have their own benefits such that they shouldn't be a factor in determining hitboxes and general mech balance.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 May 2018 - 10:45 AM, said:

@Viktor Drake
Armor and Structure Quirks arnt really their to balance IS-XL,
as they would have to be extreme to do so, and such would skew the balance with LFEs / STD Engines with them,

most of the time Armor and Structure Quirks are their to balance Bad Geo or weapon Placement,
such as low arms on a nova, or a long nose on a crab, they are rarely used to balance equipment,

please note if IS OmniMechs are released, Armor / Structure Quirks would be used to balance Engines,
as all OmniMech are unable to change their engines, and as such they would have to use them for balance,

Andi I do appreciate your thoughts but I recall pretty specifically that when armor and structure quirks first started showing up, the primarily showed up on the STs of mechs that weren't XL friendly. They might not be so focused on that right now but originally it seemed pretty apparent that was the original intent behind those armor and structure quirks. Of course that was back when Clan mechs were actually OP and had zero penalties applied when losing a ST. Also you don't have to have extreme quirks to balance the IS vs Clan XL, you just need a bit more durability on the ST because generally speaking on a Clan mech you already know that popping a ST isn't going to take it down so you don't shoot for the ST, you always shoot for the CT. On an IS mechs you really don't know what engine they are running so it was really a 50/50 choice whether to go for the XL check and an easy kill or go for the more direct choice and just shoot CT. As long as you have that scenario going on, when you look at the Magic Spreadsheet of Balance that PGI uses, TTK between an IS mech and a Clan mech would show up as pretty even with just 10-15 armor or structure added to the ST.

However, that is an old, old debate from probably 3 years ago so I will drop that discussion right now.

In any case, adding 15 armor to a ST whether it is to balance XLs or not, still goes a long way toward improving the life Span of your typical IS mech when using an XL engine because on average it just takes much, much more firepower to pop a ST on a IS mech than it does on your typical Clan mech.

Further whether or not anyone agrees about the structure and armor quirks as a balancing factor for XLs, my other points were very valid. Changing IS XL to function like Clan XL would absolutely render LFE obsolete. Additionally it would give most IS mechs probably 3-5 tons of extra weight to use for weapons and other equipment. Right now this extra weight allowance is balanced by the XL vulnerability but if the vulnerability is removed, it is just a straight up buff to every IS mech in the game. Since right now where are somewhat at parity with IS vs Clan balance, that would mean a mass nerf to IS weaponry.

Now I am not saying that changing the IS XL and then mass nerfing IS quirks and weapons wouldn't ultimately be a good thing but I think there are alot of people other there that want/expect an IS XL change while not touching anything else on the IS side and this can't happen if we want balance. Honestly it goes back to what I always say, "Be careful of what you wish for cause the result might not be what you really want".

[Andi Nagasia]

naturally we want to figure a way to balance IS-XL to C-XL,
but we also dont want to invalidate the LFE, so the question is how do we?

[Brain Cancer]

The proper solution is giving all engines HP, meaning they can be effectively critted to death simply by hitting internals enough.

Make ST destruction still have appropriate effects (2/3 HP for LFE/CXL 100% for ISXL) but this way Clan engines are also vulnerable to significant damage not merely from destroying a ST, but exposing the engine in two place. It'd narrow the kill gap considerably. CXL can even be given fewer HP than ISXL/LFE, making it more vulnerable to critting even if it can survive a ST loss.

[process]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 May 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

naturally we want to figure a way to balance IS-XL to C-XL,
but we also dont want to invalidate the LFE, so the question is how do we?

I've advocated for setting LFE as effectively the default, giving IS-XL modest +structure bonuses to the side torsos, and IS-STD more substantial +armor bonus to the CT. Similarly, Clan XL is the default and gets nothing, and Clan STD get a smaller +armor bonus.

This is on top of the armor/structure quirks to compensate mech hitboxes and geometry.

Edited by process, 10 May 2018 - 01:20 PM.

[LordNothing]

Stridercal, on 10 May 2018 - 07:29 AM, said:

So let's **** up the mech lab too while we're at it, because "whaaaaaaa XL engines have tradeoffs WHHHAHAAHAAHAHAHAHA..."

PGI, if you even consider doing some stupid change like this, you'll lose the few hardcore BT nerds you still have.

the hardcore bt nerds have their own game now. why do they got to keep messing with mah mechwarrior?

and honestly its not waaaah. its a peice of technology thats been filling up my pile of unused inventory. unless its a for a light or fast medium i just dont use xls anymore and havent since my collection of lfes has gotten respectable. i also find its the thing i sell when i need cbills, replacing lerm racks as my favorite thing to hawk. when a peice of kit falls this short it needs a buff.

Edited by LordNothing, 10 May 2018 - 01:49 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

naturally we want to figure a way to balance IS-XL to C-XL,

easy make ISXL survive side torso destruction.

that is the only real solution.

and then buff LFE and STD accordingly

[Grus]

I can't post the angry cat NO from my phone... I'll have to wait till I get home. Butt... NO.

[Grus]

Andi Nagasia, on 10 May 2018 - 01:09 PM, said:

naturally we want to figure a way to balance IS-XL to C-XL,
but we also dont want to invalidate the LFE, so the question is how do we?

that's the issue.. you're trying to balance something that isn't supposed to be balanced! In no way shape or form should the IS XL survive st loss. If you want to bring an XL on your build on w/e mech that's your choise. Understand that if you do you need to be a better pilot and position correctly to minimize st loss.

This topic is just like the people that cry about bringing PPC/ LRM only builds and can't kill another mech in thier dead zone... or cry about being in a assault and a light legghumping them to death.. put some guns in your arms ffs.

[Grus]

It makes about as much sence to try and balance a P-51 to a F-22...

[Brain Cancer]

Grus, on 10 May 2018 - 03:23 PM, said:

It makes about as much sence to try and balance a P-51 to a F-22...

...which is basically what Paul did when he had the bright idea to "balance" Clantech to IS tech 1:1.

...something tabletop couldn't do in decades of play. You might be able to have done things 5:8, but 1:1 was taking what was designed to be as unbalanced as possible and jamming them together in the name of equality.

[The Lighthouse]

Grus, on 10 May 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

that's the issue.. you're trying to balance something that isn't supposed to be balanced! In no way shape or form should the IS XL survive st loss. If you want to bring an XL on your build on w/e mech that's your choise. Understand that if you do you need to be a better pilot and position correctly to minimize st loss.

This topic is just like the people that cry about bringing PPC/ LRM only builds and can't kill another mech in thier dead zone... or cry about being in a assault and a light legghumping them to death.. put some guns in your arms ffs.

Yes, and the better pilots hence do not use IS mechs with XL torso death. They chose Clan XL by picking Clan mechs, or go LFE if possible.

I am still surprised people are still pushing the idea "stop blame mechs git gud" after Solaris came out, it became extremely obvious that skills alone can only get you so far.

Edited by The Lighthouse, 10 May 2018 - 10:33 PM.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

The Lighthouse, on 10 May 2018 - 10:19 PM, said:

Yes, and the better pilots hence do not use IS mechs with XL torso death. They chose Clan XL by picking Clan mechs, or go LFE if possible.

I am still surprised people are still pushing the idea "stop blame mechs git gud" after Solaris came out, it became extremely obvious that skills alone can only get you so far.

And with Solaris coming out practically everyone picked IS mechs because LFE+armor quirks is superior to Clan XL and absolutely blows away IS XL. Pretty much CXL wins when given time to poke, Solaris and coordinated brawl pushes take that time away. CXL is a god of quickplay and comp though, not so much faction play and Solaris.

Pretty much nothing is more durable than one of those IS mechs with monstrous durability quirks that is also deadsiding. Taking only 40% damage (or 20% if the enemy manages to hit the arm nub) to a center torso with around 200 hitpoints. The CT alone takes 500 points of damage to destroy, the side takes over 100, the arm takes a little under 100, so all together approximately 700 damage to take down a good IS heavy that is deadsiding. Dragon (about 180 CT health, not 200) is a beast, and there's always the other side to do a little bit of damage soaking if the CT is about to go.

Just imagine how much damage Annihilator just absorbs.

Reference on damage transfer:


edit: did the math, my Annihilator has 239 CT health, that goes up 2.5 times due to 40% damage taking to a total of 597.5 damage that the CT can take through the side. Side torsos are 165 points that have to be shot through before that. Arms are 125 health but its unlikely someone will destroy them before the ST.

So simply by turning to the side the Annihilator takes 762.5 damage to kill. If he spreads a little under 20 damage to the arm then that's 10 alpha strikes from a Hellbringer before this monster goes down. The other side torso can also then take 2 alphas and still live. This means that in theory with minimal arm damage an Annihilator can survive an entire team of Hellbringers firing 78 damage alpha strikes at it.

Absolutely scary potential.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 11 May 2018 - 04:31 AM.

[Grus]

The Lighthouse, on 10 May 2018 - 10:19 PM, said:

Yes, and the better pilots hence do not use IS mechs with XL torso death. They chose Clan XL by picking Clan mechs, or go LFE if possible.

I am still surprised people are still pushing the idea "stop blame mechs git gud" after Solaris came out, it became extremely obvious that skills alone can only get you so far.

see you say this but i still use XL in plenty of my IS mechs to great effect... my Deathknell has a XL, all my locust have a XL my jenners ASSASEN CATAS.. there are plenty of good builds that use xl just fine, you just have to "gitgud" i guess. lol

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Grus, on 11 May 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

see you say this but i still use XL in plenty of my IS mechs to great effect... my Deathknell has a XL, all my locust have a XL my jenners ASSASEN CATAS.. there are plenty of good builds that use xl just fine, you just have to "gitgud" i guess. lol

Everyone acknowledges that XLs work decently enough in lights and light mediums since people often go for legs on those targets anyway. On targets where people generally shoot the torsos then LFE becomes far superior and even on lights such as the Wolfhound LFEs are somewhat popular.

[Christophe Ivanov]

While most are quick to discount this idea, like some say, we should test it out and see how it goes? When was the last time we did any public testing anyway? Let's give this a try before discounting something that has not been tried yet.

Edited by Christophe Ivanov, 11 May 2018 - 10:30 AM.