572 replies to this topic

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 May 2018 - 01:07 PM, said:

That Gauss vomit is a "bigger problem" than laservomit. If you consider either to be a problem.

6 less damage decreases the IS / Clan "damage gap" without neutering nearly as many low-end builds.

More GH penalties on their own is exactly what people already shouted down.

Yeah? Well reducing weapon damage on the cERMeds is going to get shouted down if PGI proposes to do that too. Better not to argue ad populum I guess.

Now when you say Gauss, vomit I assume you mean laser vomit + gauss. Now I ask you, how does coupling clan meds and larges not help with the gauss vomit issue? Is 6 cERMeds and a gauss really that problematic?

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 30 May 2018 - 01:10 PM, said:

It also wouldn't hurt to boost non-heavy clan large lasers to a ghost heat max of 3 to compensate.

If they were unlinked, sure. At the minimum they would need to do that, though maybe not HLLs.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 May 2018 - 01:18 PM, said:

If they were unlinked, sure. At the minimum they would need to do that, though maybe not HLLs.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, similar to with heavy meds, leave clan heavy larges at 2 for ghost heat and bring other clan larges up to 3. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if clan mediums can trip clan large ghost heat.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 30 May 2018 - 01:15 PM, said:

Yeah? Well reducing weapon damage on the cERMeds is going to get shouted down if PGI proposes to do that too. Better not to argue ad populum I guess.

Now when you say Gauss, vomit I assume you mean laser vomit + gauss. Now I ask you, how does coupling clan meds and larges not help with the gauss vomit issue? Is 6 cERMeds and a gauss really that problematic?

I'm not arguing ad populum, I'm reminding you of what already happened regarding this exact issue. I could, instead, point to the fact PGI has linked weapons with GH once that I'm aware of, Gauss + PPC. (I wasn't around when GH was first introduced, feel free to cite other examples post-GH introduction). On the other hand, they have decreased the damage on weapons, especially lasers, especially Clan lasers, numerous times already, so there is precedent.

Most of my Gauss + laser 'mechs use Gauss + Medium class lasers. The sole exception I can think of is the Deathstrike. YMMV.

Jack Shayu Walker, on 30 May 2018 - 01:21 PM, said:

Yeah that's what I'm saying, similar to with heavy meds, leave clan heavy larges at 2 for ghost heat and bring other clan larges up to 3. That's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if clan mediums can trip clan large ghost heat.

Which was literally part of my alternative suggestion(s)

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 May 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

I'm not arguing ad populum, I'm reminding you of what already happened regarding this exact issue. I could, instead, point to the fact PGI has linked weapons with GH once that I'm aware of, Gauss + PPC. (I wasn't around when GH was first introduced, feel free to cite other examples post-GH introduction). On the other hand, they have decreased the damage on weapons, especially lasers, especially Clan lasers, numerous times already, so there is precedent.

Most of my Gauss + laser 'mechs use Gauss + Medium class lasers. The sole exception I can think of is the Deathstrike. YMMV.

Fiar enough. Well then I'll point out that the times at which they reduced clan laser damage were not well received with the possible exception of the clan medium pulse. I'll also say that their decoupling of cERPPCs and cGauss was a measure I was pleased to see.

Double Gauss double Peep was a problem. I don't really see cERMeds + gauss to be a problem.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I think it’s also worth pointing out that yes clan gauss vom is better than IS guass vom. However I would argue that it isn’t helpful to view balancing gauss/laser vom through the lens of narrowing the damage desparity between clan and IS now that Civil War is here.

Simply put Clans should be the kings of gauss vom; it’s their strong suit. IS on the other hand has strong suits that clans can’t touch like precision frontloaded alpha strikes with their Heavy Gauss, or efficient medium range damage with their MRMs.

On the other hand it is helpful to view laser vom through the lens of being game breaking, and on that end it may be prudent that something be done about the 78 damage laser alphas clans are currently sporting. Said alphas can be attained with a mear investment of 14 tons, plus whatever you want to spend on DHS.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 30 May 2018 - 05:24 PM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 30 May 2018 - 01:25 PM, said:

Which was literally part of my alternative suggestion(s)

Which is fine, but in that suggestion you went too far in suggesting that small lasers and medium lasers be de-linked. Good lord the Havoc I could wreck with that. To be honest with you, if I could make it happen and somehow escape the consequences and fallout from the player base I'd take your alternate suggestion.

My main liner is actually a Nova with 6 cERMeds and 6 cERSmalls. I compete with it in Solaris with great success and I can only imagine how devastating it could be if I could dole out 72 damage all in one burn. But I know that it'd be broken, and the outcry would be pretty loud, and if PGI didn't listen, Novas just like mine would become the meta and the QQ would be real.

It looks a lot more balanced than pairing larger and mediums together on paper, but believe me in practice it'd be a nightmare.

[Reno Blade]

So coming back to one suggestion from another post to reduce heat by about 20% and dmg by about 15% for all Clan lasers, but increase GH limit of cERLL and cLPL to 3x instead of 2x.

The HLL GH values:
- w/o penalty (dark blue): Base heat of 16, so without GH you could fire 3x HLL to generate "only" 48 heat
- w/ penalty (red): GH limit changed to 1x, so you already have the mentioned 5.7 additional heat on the 2nd HLL
- Before (light blue): the current GH values Base heat of 16 with GH multiplier of 4.5
- Low heat HLL (orange): new curve using 13 base heat instead of 16 and the current GH multiplier of 4.5 and max of 1x HLL limit, so you generate 4.68 extra heat on the 2nd HLL, but would be still below the current 2x HLL (without GH) with 30.68 heat instead of 32 heat.
(with a GH limit of 3x, the HLL would be at 39 heat for 3x HLL)


So my suggestion (lower heat and dmg, shared GH, but higher max limit for larges) from here could be an alternative:

Reno Blade, on 28 May 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

It may be even better to combine these ideas.

1a. Reduce damage by ~15% for each Clan Laser
1b. but also reduce heat by ~20% for each Clan Laser
Edit: smalls might even be buffed back a bit

2a. Combine GH groups of Large lasers to the other lasers (already combined med+smalls)
2b. Increase GH limit of larges to 3x

The expected result would be more builds with 3x Large + Gauss and less builds with 2x Large + 6x Med (+Gauss).
And also the 6 Meds + Gauss would be slightly weaker without forcing 4 meds only.
To have a lower total damage, but a broader aray of builds.

In addition, if you are willing to split your volley in multiple groups, you can still field builds with lots of laser, but need to split and you could even use builds with 6 larges (e.g. supernova stock) with a 3+3 combo volley, rather than having a 2+6 alpha vomit.

Edited by Reno Blade, 31 May 2018 - 02:30 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

I just know that I would be deeply displeased with the state of the game if they nerfed clan laser damage across the board by 15%, regardless of other buffs. Could enter QQ territory, might not; but I'd certainly stop funneling cash into the game. Reducing the damage like that power washes away the character of clan lasers to rectify an inter-faction power gap that no longer exists.

I don't see why we don't just nerf the specific weapon combonation that is unhealthy for the game: it's Heavy Large Lasers and pick your flavor of medium lasers.

[Reno Blade]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 31 May 2018 - 05:37 PM, said:

I just know that I would be deeply displeased with the state of the game if they nerfed clan laser damage across the board by 15%, regardless of other buffs. Could enter QQ territory, might not; but I'd certainly stop funneling cash into the game. Reducing the damage like that power washes away the character of clan lasers to rectify an inter-faction power gap that no longer exists.

I don't see why we don't just nerf the specific weapon combonation that is unhealthy for the game: it's Heavy Large Lasers and pick your flavor of medium lasers.

If you nerf only HLL, there will be no reason to take them over ERLL or LPL, or even just Meds.
You have to balance with each other weapon, not just a single one, or you will always just run around nerfing one by one... the thing that most people complain about 90% of the time when there is a change coming.

Nerfing all lasers will bring back all other weapons closer to this "over-performing" weapon class (because it's so damn easy to boat it and to play with it).

just ask yourself/anyone: is anyone using UAC20s over a bunch of lasers?
As long as the best weapons in the game - performance and skill wise (hitscan dot is easier than anything else) - are boated lasers, I am asking for a change.

Sure, the GH combination of Heavies + Meds will solve 80% of the vomit advantage, but it will not bring back the SRM/UAC20/LBX20 brawling where you have to invest a lot and have to be more skilled to hit than with 6 ERML + DHS.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Reno Blade, on 01 June 2018 - 09:28 AM, said:

If you nerf only HLL, there will be no reason to take them over ERLL or LPL, or even just Meds.
You have to balance with each other weapon, not just a single one, or you will always just run around nerfing one by one... the thing that most people complain about 90% of the time when there is a change coming.

Nerfing all lasers will bring back all other weapons closer to this "over-performing" weapon class (because it's so damn easy to boat it and to play with it).

just ask yourself/anyone: is anyone using UAC20s over a bunch of lasers?
As long as the best weapons in the game - performance and skill wise (hitscan dot is easier than anything else) - are boated lasers, I am asking for a change.

Sure, the GH combination of Heavies + Meds will solve 80% of the vomit advantage, but it will not bring back the SRM/UAC20/LBX20 brawling where you have to invest a lot and have to be more skilled to hit than with 6 ERML + DHS.

2 problems.

1) Clans would be at too much of a disadvantage if you cut laser damage across the board.

2) It would take clan lasers from more or less canon/balanced but in the spirit of canon -to- nothing even remotely resembling what clan lasers are intended to be.

And what are you hoping to achieve by making these sacrifices?

Don't let me straw man you, but from what I can see you're trying to diversify the clan meta through nerfs - not buffs - so that you get to see more equipment variety on clan mechs without running against the grain of your overall "Increase Time To Kill" initiative that you love so much. Is that about right?

Well personally I have no desire what-so-ever to see TTK increase, especially by way of nerfs. I use all sorts of builds in quickplay and I very much enjoy the tempo that the game currently has. If you take issue with the scarcity of clan ACs and SRMs, then I say try out the Med Large ghost heat pairing, and see if that fixes it. If not test out some buffs. Standard clan ACs need some actual noticeable advantages over their ultra cousins, and clan Ultra 20s need some spicing up so they can compete with their 10 and 5 counterparts. Clan SRMs could also do with a minor spread reduction.

Lastly, there is nothing meta-ruining about 6 cERMed + DHS builds. I can't even conceive how such loadouts could be construed as a problem. It's not an optimal set up on anything bigger than a Nova, and frankly a Nova shouldn't be packing ACs and SRMs in the first place.

[Erronius]

InnerSphereNews, on 11 May 2018 - 03:26 PM, said:

Skill Tree changes:

Survival Tree

• 
  
  • Reinforced Casing - Increased Benefit to -1.5 per node (from -1)

I'd missed this change, and was scratching my head in-game as to why it showed -1.5% but the text still says -1%. Didn't see it mentioned yet in the 20+ pages of laservomit/HLL debates.




This totally ruined the game for me, PGI pls fix