572 replies to this topic

[Saivost Rast]

Lily of Thrace, on 17 May 2018 - 02:19 AM, said:

Wait, so... the changes to Clan lasers and Mad Cat Mk2s were removed, but... IS stuff still got hit with the "balance" club?
I'm sorry, I saved money on my weekly shopping by cutting my purchases down to £7 just so I'd have more money to spend on this game this week, but after this, I think I'll use the money for something else this week and in future.
Also, I want my horns back, or removed and given an MC refund, though I doubt either of them is in the cards.
Rita Repulsa just isn't the same without her oversized horns.

TheNostalgicSlav, on 17 May 2018 - 03:30 AM, said:

I like how all of the Clan changes were removed and it was stated that "Oh we need to possibly test this on the PTS" but still went ahead with the 'balance' on the IS side. If the PTS is so needed, maybe both sides could use it just for fairness sake.
I'm going to reference the patch notes and the thinking that was stated in the patch notes about the Annihilator. The entire point of the Annihilator is to be a battering ram and a sudden death to anything that tries to engage it 1v1. The entire point of the Annihilator is to excel in a typical 1v1 situation and to be focused my multiple mechs. Even then an LRM or an ATM boat could easily do significant damage to it. Piranhas delete anything that show their backs to, that includes Annihilators and also the popular Dual Heavy Gauss builds carry the risk of them being critted out on top of the long cooldown between spurs of damage, which only reinforces the fact that it was meant to be taken down by a multiple of people, which severely decreases it's lifetime and optimal engagement outcome. It's big, it's mean and a major target.

Also, you say that you don't want to reduce the HP of the Atlas....so you decrease the CT armor quirk and redistribute it into the STs, which contradicts that statement. Not only because of the reduction, but because the CT is the mostly targeted part of the Atlas, the majority of the hitbox on the Atlas is the CT and hence this only serves to once again reduce the tanking power of a already quite underpowered mech compared to other options in the same class. While the overall value change is negligible, it's still worth pointing out.

I did agree with the proposed change to the Clan lasers before that magically got pulled the day after the notes were released. It made sense since the Clan lasers are superior to IS lasers in pretty much every way. Damage, range. Even the longer cooldown isn't really an issue since it kind of helps with the heat management and just tells you to hide behind cover for a while before you can poke again. And to do all that without a penalty for firing a high number of them at the same time is quite astounding. As a primarily an assault/heavy player, I am more afraid to engage a laser boat Hellbringer or a similar clan laser boat heavy or medium than a Kodiak. The pinpoint damage alpha that happens in such a short time cannot be competed against with Ballistics or Missiles due to their nature and IS Lasers simply perform worse in a poking match.

I am also a bit upset about the resizing of the horn bolt-on for the Firestarter. It was goofy and didn't really hurt or benefit anyone except being just a fun thing that in my opinion actually made the Firestarter cooler. And I do hope the Black Knight will receive the ability to equip a sword in the hand like the Centurion does. It just makes sense to do that.

Was quite looking forward to spending some MC...but I think I'll hold and wait and see what happens with this whole 'Clan' thing.

I can't agree more with the above posts. If the lasers deal needed further testing then the IS nerfs probably needed more too, yeah? I mean, has anyone looked at the relative armor between Locusts and Jenners? Let me know if you also see something off there...
Anywho, I've dumbed absurd amounts of money into this game since day 1, and I can't help but feel like PGI is not using those funds in a way that will actually better our game.

[XV25]

SOOOOO terrible to wait 3 min to start solaris...
WaitWarrior online is annoying.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

13loodwraith, on 18 May 2018 - 10:31 PM, said:

"Oh PGI, you nerfed our clan lasers too much wanh wanh. Now I cant 80+ alpha with only 1 second exposure wanh wanh. I wil never learn to use multiple weapons groups, how could you? Wanh wanh. I might actually have to expose my mech long enough for the enemy to shoot me wanh wanh" get a grip you filthy freebirths and stop being cowards. Split your weapons up, cycle them more often, grow a pair, and fight like a real mechwarrior.

Lol, you have MRMs, your credibility is Nil.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Bottom line is restricting clanners to 4 cERMeds makes the cERMeds BAD. That's an open and shut case. The trouble is people who are tired of dying to Heavy Large + cERMedium laser spam don't really give a flying duck if clan mediums become garbage can tier for a while. Never the less it'd be bad balancing and I'm glad PGI had the sense this time to pull the changes.

Seriously, the best solution going forward with clan lasers is probably to couple the large laser heat group with the small and medium heat group. Clan laser vom isn't even that dangerous to lights, mediums, or spry heavies, its the sluggish heavies and Assaults that are suffering and they're suffering from the double heavy large 6/4 ERMed siege engines like the Mad Cat Mk.II and Hellbringer.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 28 May 2018 - 07:18 AM, said:

Seriously, the best solution going forward with clan lasers is probably to couple the large laser heat group with the small and medium heat group. Clan laser vom isn't even that dangerous to lights, mediums, or spry heavies, its the sluggish heavies and Assaults that are suffering and they're suffering from the double heavy large 6/4 ERMed siege engines like the Mad Cat Mk.II and Hellbringer.

I'd rather PGI either;

1. Nerf Clan ERML to 6 damage
To compensate;
decrease duration to 1.075s (14% reduction, same as 7 -> 6)

2. Link Large & Medium class Clan lasers
To compensate;
Unlink Medium & Small class Clan lasers
Increase Clan Large class laser GH cap to 3 (so GH limit = 4, in PGI speak)
Restore LPL to 13 damage
Restore MPL to 8 damage
Increase SPL to 5 damage (not 6, not yet)

[admiralbenbow123]

Personally, this is how I would nerf clan laser vomit: put clan large lasers (both er and heavy) and clan medium lasers (both er and heavy) into the same heat penalty group, which is similar to PGI's gauss+ppc nerf.

Edited by admiralbenbow123, 28 May 2018 - 08:09 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 28 May 2018 - 07:33 AM, said:

I'd rather PGI either;

1. Nerf Clan ERML to 6 damage
To compensate;
decrease duration to 1.075s (14% reduction, same as 7 -> 6)

2. Link Large & Medium class Clan lasers
To compensate;
Unlink Medium & Small class Clan lasers
Increase Clan Large class laser GH cap to 3 (so GH limit = 4, in PGI speak)
Restore LPL to 13 damage
Restore MPL to 8 damage
Increase SPL to 5 damage (not 6, not yet)

cERMed does not need a damage nerf and I'd rather not set PGI on the course of making a complex pass like this because they're going to want to put their own spin on it so as to be able to claim it was their idea. Further, no, 6 cERmall + 6 cERMed alpha strike is not okay, especially if you've lowered medium burn time.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Well, we know PGI will do something. I'd rather have 6 damage Clan ERMLs (still better damage than IS MLs, I don't see them complaining) than a GH limit of 4 on Clan ERMLs & MPLs.

No lowered Clan ERML burn time in suggestion #2.

6 Clan ERML + 6 Clan ERSL = 72 damage @ 200m for 12E slots, 12 crit slots, 9 tons, 1.25s and 58.8 heat

6 Clan ERML + 2 HML = 78 damage @ 400m for 8E slots, 12 crit slots, 14 tons, 1.55s and 69.8 heat

6 Clan ERML + 2 Clan LPL = 66 damage @ 400m for 8E slots, 10 crit slots, 18 tons, 1.25s and 57.8 heat

Imagine, if you will, we had a 12E IS 'mech;
6 IS ERML + 6 IS ESML = 49.5 damage @ 200m for 12E slots, 12 crit slots, 9 tons, 0.9s and 40.2 heat

My point? Gief Raptor / Komodo / Black Hawk-KU naow.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 28 May 2018 - 08:58 AM.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 28 May 2018 - 08:58 AM, said:

Well, we know PGI will do something. I'd rather have 6 damage Clan ERMLs (still better damage than IS MLs, I don't see them complaining) than a GH limit of 4 on Clan ERMLs & MPLs.

No lowered Clan ERML burn time in suggestion #2.

6 Clan ERML + 6 Clan ERSL = 72 damage @ 200m for 12E slots, 12 crit slots, 9 tons, 1.25s and 58.8 heat

6 Clan ERML + 2 HML = 78 damage @ 400m for 8E slots, 12 crit slots, 14 tons, 1.55s and 69.8 heat

6 Clan ERML + 2 Clan LPL = 66 damage @ 400m for 8E slots, 10 crit slots, 18 tons, 1.25s and 57.8 heat

Imagine, if you will, we had a 12E IS 'mech;
6 IS ERML + 6 IS ESML = 49.5 damage @ 200m for 12E slots, 12 crit slots, 9 tons, 0.9s and 40.2 heat

My point? Gief Raptor / Komodo / Black Hawk-KU naow.

I seriously doubt PGI is going to decouple smalls from mediums, I can think of all sorts of clan side laser brawl shenanigans i could get into with that. Meanwhile, there is nothing wrong with JUST coupling clan Larges and mediums and calling it a day. Easy suggestion, easy to test, targets siege laser vom, leaves lighter non-problematic laser vom alone.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 28 May 2018 - 09:09 AM, said:

I seriously doubt PGI is going to decouple smalls from mediums, I can think of all sorts of clan side laser brawl shenanigans i could get into with that. Meanwhile, there is nothing wrong with JUST coupling clan Larges and mediums and calling it a day. Easy suggestion, easy to test, targets siege laser vom, leaves lighter non-problematic laser vom alone.

Oh I agree, they're probably going to "listen to our feedback" then do what they originally planned to do anyway.

I would rather lower Clan ERML damage to 6 with duration and/or heat buffs to compensate, so it retains a similar HPS / DPS profile.

Just linking Large & Medium Clan lasers (and therefore all Clan lasers) without compensation elsewhere ruins as many builds as PGI's original solution.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 28 May 2018 - 09:13 AM, said:

Oh I agree, they're probably going to "listen to our feedback" then do what they originally planned to do anyway.

I would rather lower Clan ERML damage to 6 with duration and/or heat buffs to compensate, so it retains a similar HPS / DPS profile.

Just linking Large & Medium Clan lasers (and therefore all Clan lasers) without compensation elsewhere ruins as many builds as PGI's original solution.

But it also solves the primary problem with a light touch patch.

Edited by Jack Shayu Walker, 28 May 2018 - 09:16 AM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 28 May 2018 - 09:16 AM, said:

But it also solves the primary problem with a light touch patch.

As does lowering Clan ERML damage to 6.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 28 May 2018 - 09:23 AM, said:

As does lowering Clan ERML damage to 6.

No it doesn't. Just lowering cERML damage to 6 will not fix the laser vom issue.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 28 May 2018 - 09:27 AM, said:

No it doesn't. Just lowering cERML damage to 6 will not fix the laser vom issue.

And linking Large & Medium class lasers doesn't fix the Gauss vomit issue.

[Reno Blade]

It may be even better to combine these ideas.

1a. Reduce damage by ~15% for each Clan Laser
1b. but also reduce heat by ~20% for each Clan Laser
Edit: smalls might even be buffed back a bit

2a. Combine GH groups of Large lasers to the other lasers (already combined med+smalls)
2b. Increase GH limit of larges to 3x

The expected result would be more builds with 3x Large + Gauss and less builds with 2x Large + 6x Med (+Gauss).
And also the 6 Meds + Gauss would be slightly weaker without forcing 4 meds only.
To have a lower total damage, but a broader aray of builds.

In addition, if you are willing to split your volley in multiple groups, you can still field builds with lots of laser, but need to split and you could even use builds with 6 larges (e.g. supernova stock) with a 3+3 combo volley, rather than having a 2+6 alpha vomit.

Edited by Reno Blade, 28 May 2018 - 11:05 AM.

[Zack Esseth]

Want to make better diversity in weapon arrays, why not assign a value to each weapon. Put weapons into groups i.e. lasers group, ballistic group, missile group. And then set value caps to each group type before ghost heat. Like the energy bar idea but not nearly as restrictive by not having a recharge rate and each weapon category has its own pool. Would also make the heat scaling more predictable as exceeding the category value can be a growing percentage so being slightly over isn't killer but being more that a few over is penalized.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Jay Leon Hart, on 28 May 2018 - 09:32 AM, said:

And linking Large & Medium class lasers doesn't fix the Gauss vomit issue.

What's your point? PGIs recent fix wasn't aimed at fixing gauss rifles, so I don't see what that has to do with a laser fix. I also don't really see how dropping cERMed damage down to 6 fixes gauss rifles issues either.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

Reno Blade, on 28 May 2018 - 11:00 AM, said:

It may be even better to combine these ideas.

1a. Reduce damage by ~15% for each Clan Laser
1b. but also reduce heat by ~20% for each Clan Laser
Edit: smalls might even be buffed back a bit

2a. Combine GH groups of Large lasers to the other lasers (already combined med+smalls)
2b. Increase GH limit of larges to 3x

The expected result would be more builds with 3x Large + Gauss and less builds with 2x Large + 6x Med (+Gauss).
And also the 6 Meds + Gauss would be slightly weaker without forcing 4 meds only.
To have a lower total damage, but a broader aray of builds.

In addition, if you are willing to split your volley in multiple groups, you can still field builds with lots of laser, but need to split and you could even use builds with 6 larges (e.g. supernova stock) with a 3+3 combo volley, rather than having a 2+6 alpha vomit.

There is no need to start cutting damage off clan lasers left and right. All of this is an over-engineered solution to a minor problem that can be fixed with much lighter touch. The issue at hand is not that clan weapons are OP, we're a bit past that time in MWO history. Where we are at right now is that stacking clan heavy large lasers with 5+ clan medium lasers and gauss rifles is hitting above curve in quickplay, especially against other assaults.

The solution should be reflective of the problem it's solving, and should focus on breaking up the problematic weapon combinations without disrupting anything else. The best way I see to do that is to do things one step at a time and start with bringing Larges and Mediums into the same ghost heat group. We can see how things pan out from there and see if more is neccisary but I have a feeling laser gauss won't be near as much of an issue when laser alphas cap out at 42.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Jack Shayu Walker, on 30 May 2018 - 12:56 PM, said:

What's your point? PGIs recent fix wasn't aimed at fixing gauss rifles, so I don't see what that has to do with a laser fix. I also don't really see how dropping cERMed damage down to 6 fixes gauss rifles issues either.

That Gauss vomit is a "bigger problem" than laservomit. If you consider either to be a problem.

6 less damage decreases the IS / Clan "damage gap" without neutering nearly as many low-end builds.

More GH penalties on their own is exactly what people already shouted down.

[Jack Shayu Walker]

It also wouldn't hurt to boost non-heavy clan large lasers to a ghost heat max of 3 to compensate.