291 replies to this topic

[Variant1]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 06:16 AM, said:

At the risk of repeating myself...

IS ML = 270m
IS ERML = 360m
Clan ERML = 400m
IS LL = 450m
IS ERLL = 675m
Clan ERLL = 740m

That's less than your proposed 100-200m range advantage already, with already less range on a Clan ERML than an IS LL, so what's your problem again?

Thats optimal range. Mwo has 2x range so it actually looks like this:
IS ML = 270m opt, 540 max
IS ERML = 360m opt, 720 max
Clan ERML = 400m opt, 800 max
IS LL = 450m opt, 900 max
IS ERLL = 675m opt, 1350 max
Clan ERLL = 740m opt, 1480 max
My problem is with clans long range poke, which should be negated by high heat and long cooldowns. But thanks to quirks and weapon nodes it negates that disadvantage, map design also favors long range poke rather than close combat meaning cooldown wont be a problem to deal with.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Variant1, on 13 May 2018 - 06:31 AM, said:

Thats optimal range. Mwo has 2x range so it actually looks like this:
*snip*

Which still leaves everything well within your proposed 100-200m range difference and still leaves Clan ERML shorter ranged that IS LL.

Also, pretty sure a good number of Clan lasers haven't had 2x range for a while. Go look at some patch notes.

[Luminis]

Variant1, on 13 May 2018 - 06:31 AM, said:

My problem is with clans long range poke, which should be negated by high heat and long cooldowns. But thanks to quirks and weapon nodes it negates that disadvantage, map design also favors long range poke rather than close combat meaning cooldown wont be a problem to deal with.

It's not really quirks and weapon nodes that negate it. I mean, quirks are largely non-existent on the better Clan Mechs, at least regarding Laser Vomit, and Skill Tree Nodes have been adjusted to reflect that disadvantage by yielding smaller returns per node (in the January or February patch, I think). The issue with the peek & fade playstyle it that you generally don't have to care whether you have to sit in cover for three or five seconds due to heat and cooldowns.


As you said, there's also the issue of map design - it allows that playstyle to work by ensuring sufficiently long sight lines to make a push into short-ish ranges very dangerous against a team that knows what it's doing and utilises its range right. This isn't just an issue with Clan Tech, though, and is - I feel - highlighted in Solaris where peek & fade just doesn't work as well because your opponent has a much easier time pushing you.

Pit my AS7 against a Laser Vomit Clan Assault like the the MAD-IIC or an SNV in Solaris and I won't just win, I'll crush them without breaking a sweat, simply because I don't have miles of open ground to cover, no team mates to convince to push and the laser boat has no safe area to ********** to in order to cool off.

That's why I think I'd rather see a slight damage reduction as well as a reduction in heat and maybe duration is the best solution. It helps to reduce the strongest playstyle for Clan Laser Vomit without invalidating the weapon system altogether in other applications, like skirmishing.

[Khobai]

Quote

My problem is with clans long range poke, which should be negated by high heat and long cooldowns. But thanks to quirks and weapon nodes it negates that disadvantage, map design also favors long range poke rather than close combat meaning cooldown wont be a problem to deal with.

what quirks? the better clan mechs dont get any...

and weapon nodes are actually weaker for clans than IS so clans arnt getting an advantage there either.


the actual advantage clans have is bigger alphas. because they have higher damage weapons with the same ghost heat limit as their IS equivalents. clan mechs basically get the option to squeeze out more damage than IS mechs at the cost of higher heat.

reducing the clan max alpha so its in line with IS max alphas is primarily what PGI needs to focus on for balance.

Edited by Khobai, 13 May 2018 - 07:28 AM.

[Mr Steinbrenner]

Luminis, on 13 May 2018 - 06:49 AM, said:

It's not really quirks and weapon nodes that negate it. I mean, quirks are largely non-existent on the better Clan Mechs, at least regarding Laser Vomit, and Skill Tree Nodes have been adjusted to reflect that disadvantage by yielding smaller returns per node (in the January or February patch, I think). The issue with the peek & fade playstyle it that you generally don't have to care whether you have to sit in cover for three or five seconds due to heat and cooldowns.


As you said, there's also the issue of map design - it allows that playstyle to work by ensuring sufficiently long sight lines to make a push into short-ish ranges very dangerous against a team that knows what it's doing and utilises its range right. This isn't just an issue with Clan Tech, though, and is - I feel - highlighted in Solaris where peek & fade just doesn't work as well because your opponent has a much easier time pushing you.

Pit my AS7 against a Laser Vomit Clan Assault like the the MAD-IIC or an SNV in Solaris and I won't just win, I'll crush them without breaking a sweat, simply because I don't have miles of open ground to cover, no team mates to convince to push and the laser boat has no safe area to ********** to in order to cool off.

That's why I think I'd rather see a slight damage reduction as well as a reduction in heat and maybe duration is the best solution. It helps to reduce the strongest playstyle for Clan Laser Vomit without invalidating the weapon system altogether in other applications, like skirmishing.

Damage reduction is a bad idea because it gimps lights and mediums that us a small number of lasers. The way they did it is the only way. In quick play you see at least 4 of the meta laser boats every game so it was never going to go down well. The thing that shits me is 2xac20 40 damage is almost impossible where 2x18 at double the range and a fraction of the weight is fine. Ive been skilling up my revent with its terribad laser hardpoint locations and ive been popping 4 kill 900 damage games pretty regularly.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mr Steinbrenner, on 13 May 2018 - 07:44 AM, said:

Damage reduction is a bad idea because it gimps lights and mediums that us a small number of lasers.

IS manage just fine, apparently, so Clan will do OK with a little less extra damage per laser.

[lazorbeamz]

Im going to miss clan laser vomits.

Yes they are overpowered.

But some mechs are deliberately designed to boat large amounts of lasers like the HBK-IIC-A. These will become quite bad IMO.

Its like the king crab with 2x AC20. You can have them if you want because the slots and tonnage allows it. But they are so bad its not even funny and you cant fire 2 AC20. You need to stagger and the whole notion of face time and beam/projectile duration becomes meaningless.

The harmony of weapons has been shattered.

Edited by lazorbeamz, 13 May 2018 - 07:50 AM.

[FupDup]

lazorbeamz, on 13 May 2018 - 07:50 AM, said:

But some mechs are deliberately designed to boat large amounts of lasers like the HBK-IIC-A. These will become quite bad IMO.

The Hunchie IIC-A can still ERPPC poptart regardless of how much lasers get nerfed.

[CFC Conky]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 06:42 AM, said:

Which still leaves everything well within your proposed 100-200m range difference and still leaves Clan ERML shorter ranged that IS LL.

...

True, but then again, just to be the Devil's Advocate, for the same weight as the isLL and only 50m less range, Clan mechs can carry 5 erMLs for an alpha of 35 vs 10. Sure, the Clan mech will run a lot hotter, but that's still a pretty big difference for mech drivers that know to manage their heat.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

[FupDup]

CFC Conky, on 13 May 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

True, but then again, just to be the Devil's Advocate, for the same weight as the isLL and only 50m less range, Clan mechs can carry 5 erMLs for an alpha of 35 vs 10. Sure, the Clan mech will run a lot hotter, but that's still a pretty big difference for mech drivers that know to manage their heat.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

The IS LL is 9 damage, not 10.

But yeah, the CERML isn't a literal 1-ton Large Laser, but it's pretty darn close.

[Jay Leon Hart]

CFC Conky, on 13 May 2018 - 10:03 AM, said:

True, but then again, just to be the Devil's Advocate, for the same weight as the isLL and only 50m less range, Clan mechs can carry 5 erMLs for an alpha of 35 vs 10. Sure, the Clan mech will run a lot hotter, but that's still a pretty big difference for mech drivers that know to manage their heat.

Good hunting,
CFC Conky

Right, or for only 90m (which is only 40m more than "only 50m") less range, IS can carry 5 ERMLs for an alpha of 25 vs 9.

The whole "1 ton LL" thing became a joke once IS got their ERMLs.

[MischiefSC]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Right, or for only 90m (which is only 40m more than "only 50m") less range, IS can carry 5 ERMLs for an alpha of 25 vs 9.

The whole "1 ton LL" thing became a joke once IS got their ERMLs.

So are you of the opinion that IS mechs could take CDHS and Cermls they would still take ISERMLs? Obviously everyone would take the CDHS.

[Jay Leon Hart]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2018 - 10:48 AM, said:

So are you of the opinion that IS mechs could take CDHS and Cermls they would still take ISERMLs? Obviously everyone would take the CDHS.

Depends on the 'mech. Less hardpoints (<7) and/or tonnage would mean I want more damage out of them, so Clan ERMLs. More hardpoints (>6) and/or tonnage would mean I want less heat, so IS ERMLs.

[MischiefSC]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

Depends on the 'mech. Less hardpoints (&lt;7) and/or tonnage would mean I want more damage out of them, so Clan ERMLs. More hardpoints (&gt;6) and/or tonnage would mean I want less heat, so IS ERMLs.

Except with CDHS you can use more tonnage for cooling.

Put it this way, why would anyone use IS Ermls on a Clan mech?

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 May 2018 - 12:05 PM.

[FupDup]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 11:51 AM, said:

Depends on the 'mech. Less hardpoints (<7) and/or tonnage would mean I want more damage out of them, so Clan ERMLs. More hardpoints (>6) and/or tonnage would mean I want less heat, so IS ERMLs.

If you're comparing a large group of IS ERML to a small group of Clan ERML, keep in mind that:

A. Although you've got less heat per gun, having more guns total can cancel out that benefit. Also keep in mind that both flavors of ERML share the damage damage-per-heat ratio of 1.11.

B. You're spending more tonnage to achieve the same level of damage.

C. Speaking of more tonnage, you could just use that spare weight on more heatsinks if heat is your concern (critslots permitting).

D. Still less range no matter what you do.

[Jay Leon Hart]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2018 - 12:04 PM, said:

Except with CDHS you can use more tonnage for cooling.

Put it this way, why would anyone use IS Ermls on a Clan mech?

So you run your Clan 'mechs with just 6 ERML and no Large class lasers, just more DHS? We both know you don't, so why make such a terrible statement? Clan DHS aren't any lighter anyway, so more tonnage doesn't mean more DHS over IS anyway.

12 IS ERML Nova would be easier to run, off the top of my head.

This was about the joke that "1 Clan ERML = 1 IS LL" anyway, not MixTech.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 13 May 2018 - 12:10 PM.

[Jay Leon Hart]

FupDup, on 13 May 2018 - 12:06 PM, said:

If you're comparing a large group of IS ERML to a small group of Clan ERML, keep in mind that:

A. Although you've got less heat per gun, having more guns total can cancel out that benefit. Also keep in mind that both flavors of ERML share the damage damage-per-heat ratio of 1.11.

B. You're spending more tonnage to achieve the same level of damage.

C. Speaking of more tonnage, you could just use that spare weight on more heatsinks if heat is your concern (critslots permitting).

D. Still less range no matter what you do.

I never compared a large group of Clan ERML to a small group of IS ERML, so there's nothing to keep in mind about a converstation I wasn't having. I was comparing 5 Is ERML to 1 Is LL, after someone else compared 5 Clan ERML to 1 IS LL. Then, I was saying in a 'mech with more E hardpoints than the GH limit of ERMLs, I would use IS ERMLs to go with whatever Large class lasers I felt like, it order to keep heat down, whereas having equal to or less than the number of E hardpoints as the GH of ERMLs, I would take Clan ERMLs for the extra damage.

With that in mind;

A. I wasn't comparing a small number to a large number, so irrelevant.

B. I'm not, because I can't get 42 damage without GH from IS ERMLs and, as re-stated, I'm not using IS ERMLs unless I have more than 6 E hardpoints anyway.

C. Or, I could use the extra weight on Large class lasers.

D. If the original "only 50 m" from Clan ERML to Is LL doesn't matter, than why does 40m matter?

TO CLARIFY

I was laughing at people taking the "1 Clan ERML = 1 IS LL" joke too seriously. And it is a joke, since IS got their ERMLs too. All these other conversations you think I was having are... odd.

[MischiefSC]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 12:09 PM, said:

So you run your Clan 'mechs with just 6 ERML and no Large class lasers, just more DHS? We both know you don't, so why make such a terrible statement? Clan DHS aren't any lighter anyway, so more tonnage doesn't mean more DHS over IS anyway.

12 IS ERML Nova would be easier to run, off the top of my head.

This was about the joke that &quot;1 Clan ERML = 1 IS LL&quot; anyway, not MixTech.

No, it was pointing out that is erml is in no real way comparable to Cerml, as you had said.

Smaller DHS = more DHS because you can fit 33% more in a mech. Tonnage is flexible, slots way less so. Especially on IS.

[Jay Leon Hart]

MischiefSC, on 13 May 2018 - 12:43 PM, said:

No, it was pointing out that is erml is in no real way comparable to Cerml, as you had said.

Smaller DHS = more DHS because you can fit 33% more in a mech. Tonnage is flexible, slots way less so. Especially on IS.

Except I didn't say IS ERML is comparable to Clan ERML, I compared 5x ERML to 1 IS LL, to argue against someone comparing 5 Clan ERML to 1 IS LL, because it's an equally valid (and bad) comparison.

I didn't say they weren't smaller or easier to boat, but you did say more tonnage = more Clan DHS, which is false.

[Edit] Further clarification needed, apparently.

MischiefSC & FupDup, please re-read what I put initially before you try to put more words in my mouth, then tell me they're wrong? Thanks. [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 13 May 2018 - 12:58 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Jay Leon Hart, on 13 May 2018 - 10:15 AM, said:

Right, or for only 90m (which is only 40m more than &quot;only 50m&quot;) less range, IS can carry 5 ERMLs for an alpha of 25 vs 9.

The whole &quot;1 ton LL&quot; thing became a joke once IS got their ERMLs.

That.

It didn't become a joke because cerml is still significantly superior to ISERMLs, especially in context of CEndo/ff/CDHS/CXL st al. The release of ISERMLs didn't change the underlying balance issue. 2cerml is better than is erml, isml or isll.