291 replies to this topic

[Mortalcoil]

Battlemaster56, on 12 May 2018 - 01:38 PM, said:

It was heavy handed nerfs that would shafted a huge lineup of clan mechs plus any future ones that would be coming out, only leaving a small line up mechs that can do dakka well without being shafted by agility (KDK3, MADIIC, Gyr comes into mind), guass vomit, or a weaker lpl/erll erml combo on select mechs.

Players have the right to voice their displesure of seeing such heavy handed nerfs, and I'm glad seeing places using their voice on twitter about bad changes, we need to do this more to give pgi a idea how to balance the game without stepping so many steps backwards.

I forgot, the vast majority of clan mechs are incapable of equipping ballistics. If only clan mechs had some way to change their hard points, but no, that would be overpowered. How ridiculous would that be. To have a mech that could just swap out its hard points. Crazy talk.

Vxheous, on 12 May 2018 - 02:12 PM, said:

You have 118 posts in the brown sea, and have made 21+ of them in the last 24 hours, I think that qualifies as spamming.

ooh, right right, deciding to be active on a forum now is qualified as spamming.

Edited by Mortalcoil, 12 May 2018 - 02:30 PM.

[SFC174]

Clan ballistics are largely inferior to IS ballistics. Ultras have more shells per salvo (more spread) and regular Clan AC have, up until recently, been largely unused because they have the same shell count and no double tap potential. And Clan mechs don't get the quirks that many IS chassis do.

It makes sense that Clanners would gravitate toward energy builds. They don't have the quirks or armor to face tank equivalent IS builds, and their pinpoint dmg is less than IS using any ballistic but a gauss rifle. I don't see this as a bug (I don't play faction, and I my mechs are split about 50/50 between Clan and IS), but a feature, where you can pick and choose the appropriate mech based upon your preferences, skill set and play style.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 02:30 PM, said:

I forgot, the vast majority of clan mechs are incapable of equipping ballistics. If only clan mechs had some way to change their hard points, but no, that would be overpowered. How ridiculous would that be. To have a mech that could just swap out its hard points. Crazy talk.

OmniMechs. OmniMechs can change their hardpoints, not Clan 'mechs. An important distinction, even if only Clan has access to them in MWO at this time.

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 12 May 2018 - 02:43 PM.

[Mortalcoil]

SFC174, on 12 May 2018 - 02:36 PM, said:

Clan ballistics are largely inferior to IS ballistics. Ultras have more shells per salvo (more spread) and regular Clan AC have, up until recently, been largely unused because they have the same shell count and no double tap potential. And Clan mechs don't get the quirks that many IS chassis do.

It makes sense that Clanners would gravitate toward energy builds. They don't have the quirks or armor to face tank equivalent IS builds, and their pinpoint dmg is less than IS using any ballistic but a gauss rifle. I don't see this as a bug (I don't play faction, and I my mechs are split about 50/50 between Clan and IS), but a feature, where you can pick and choose the appropriate mech based upon your preferences, skill set and play style.

You do realize clan AC's were put in their because of game coding issues. They weren't actually mean to be used.

[Mortalcoil]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 May 2018 - 02:43 PM, said:

OmniMechs. OmniMechs can change their hardpoints, not Clan 'mechs. An important distinction, even if only Clan has access to them in MWO at this time.

sooo, only 95% of clan mechs, got it.

[Luminis]

Luminis, on 12 May 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

I can see some people (those who've been celebrating the nerfs) overdose on sodium chloride *if* PGI does indeed go back on them.

Accurate prediction was accurate, by the way.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 02:49 PM, said:

sooo, only 95% of clan mechs, got it.

Closer to 30% 70% - got it?

[Edit] 30% BM, 70% OM [/Edit]

Edited by Jay Leon Hart, 12 May 2018 - 03:07 PM.

[Sixpack]

Andi Nagasia, on 12 May 2018 - 12:41 PM, said:

ok sure,


ether way both weapons still have the same damage per tic(1dam per 0.122sec)
um why are you puting up ERLL burn times then using an ERML analogy,
-
IS-ERLL for 1.1Laser Burn is 9Damage(3.4Cooldown @5Tons & 2Crits)
C-ERLL for 1.1Laser Burn is also 9Damage(4.0Cooldown @4Tons & 1Crits)
so the Clan ERLL does get a longer Cooldown but also is smaller and lighter,
with quirks the IS ERLL may come out on top but its not by a huge margian,

You are trying to change the topic here mate, we are not comparing weapon systems as such, but functional mechs and their builds, but let us take a short detour here and humour you.

So you admit that there is no actual damage advantage for clan lasers due to both being only able to do the same ammount of damage in the same time and all the other damage having to be considered wasted due to torso twisting?
Not only that, that means all the heat generated in that time is also wasted generating waste heat, so the lesser weight and space requirement is handily countered by the CERLL being a worse weapon in actual combat effectiveness
And you changed lasers from LL on IS side to ERLL, stick to your configuration.
Furthermore ghost heat means 27 vs 22 dmg of which a good part is going to be wasted (27vs18). Thus IS lasers are overall superior due to being able to deliver more damage in total and not generating waste damage and heat.

Also before quirks/skills:
IS LL dps: 2.14
Clan LL dps: 2.05
But we are not even using clan large lasers.

Quote

ok but your comparing a 75Ton mech(only+11CT-Armor) with a 65Ton mech,
a TBR(no Quirks just Skill tree) has around 165Total Hp&Armor,
thats just 9 short of your WHM(174)(with Quirks and Skills)

Wrong, I am comparing a 65 laservomit to a 70ton laservomit and added a 70tonner with similar durability but some clear drawbacks on the clanside for comparison, and the 70 tonner would still lose due to IS dps advantage.

Quote

again your comparing dissimilar items, also your math seems abit off, assuming unquirked/skill tree,
C-ERML has 4.5Cooldown + 1.25Burn = 5.75Full-Cooldown(assuming no quirks/Skills),
IS-LL has 3.1Cooldown + 1.10Burn = 4.2Full-Cooldown & -10% = 3.78Cooldown(no Skills)
yes it would have much less cooldown, but at 4more Tons per weapon!
this is why we need to balance ERML vs ERML not ERML vs LL,
-
C-ERML has 4.5Cooldown + 1.25Burn = 5.75Full-Cooldown(assuming no quirks/Skills),
IS-ERML has 4.0Cooldown + 0.90Burn = 4.90Full-Cooldown & -10% = 4.41Cooldown(no Skills)
it would have less cooldown, but at 2 less damage and alittle less Range & heat,

I am not comparing dissimilar items, I am comparing alpha capability for a full system, at which clan is loosing out with the suggested ghost heat changes and your build. The effectiveness of the build depends on the worst part of the system, in case of clan that is the ERML while for IS it is the LL ERML for alpha wait time. This is not weapon A vs weapon A+, it is combat system A vs combat system B.

Stop trying to change the discussion topic.

Now, it does seem my math is off in regards to cooldown on IS side as I did not consider the 4.0 cooldown on the ER and was naturally assuming the ISLL to have the larger cooldown, but my math was comparing normal cooldown + skilled burntime.
The reason for this is that on the skilltree the cooldown nodes are the same but the burntime is not. Quirks just further imbalance this.

So to see it from where I am coming from corrected to IS ERML:
Clan ER Medium: 4.5 Cooldown + 1.125 burn, total of 5.625 seconds before the next alpha can be fired without cooldown quirks/skill nodes.
IS ER Medium: 4 Cooldown + 0.765 burn, total of 4.765 seconds before the next alpha can be fired without colldown quirks/skill nodes.
IS nearly has a full second advantage over the clans before quirks come in to effect.

Quote

the problem is you cant compare (insert Clan Mech here) vs (specific Meta IS mech)
as it doesnt offer a full picture of whats going on, it has to be Meta vs Meta, or Avrage vs Avreage,
(yes i agree, with the heat gen things IS comes out on top)

I am comparing a specific meta mech vs a specific meta mech here for a very specific category of fighting and job, namely laservomit, this is perfectly valid. Or are you declaring the Hellbringer a non meta mech for laservomit? I mean, the ebon jaguar could also be used.
Now, I could throw in the virago, but that is "pay to compete on "equal" ground"", I doubt you want to go down that route.
But if you have a 70 ton laservomit metamech on the clan side for 4 ermed + 2lpl without any drawbacks for a comparison I can use that.

Quote

it does take abit more damage to kill an IS mech, but even your stats show less than a half a alpha diffrence,
mech health is in IS favor, but its countered by Clan doing slightly more damage,

You are regressing here, I have proven clan being unable to deal more damage and you have agreed with this in regards to damage per tick, considering the higher dps of IS weapons and their higher health pool they win those fights. More damage is irrelevant if you can not put it on target while having a small hard to use range advantage area and being outdpsed while also having to counter wasted heat and damage on your side.

Quote

its 300-500, ERML Range,

Wrong. 10% range increase puts IS ER meds at 396. So the advantage of clan range only comes in to play with the large pulse lasers, wich gets beaten by the standard large laser with a 10% range quirk after somewhere between 800 and 900 meters. 5-10% is pretty common for IS laservomit meta mechs, negating quite a bit to (nearly) all of the range advantage of CERM.

Let me show you:

Quote

IS = 6xERML + 2LL = 48Damge, 41Heat, 16Tons,
Clan = 4xERML + 2LPL = 52Damge, 45.2Heat, 16Tons

This is the build I have been tearing apart and proven you consistently wrong with so far.
I would appreciate it if you actually would stay on the topic of discussion instead of trying to change it.

Quote

im not saying that this will fully balance the game,
just that if it leads to Clan getting some more quirk love to chassis that need it, why not atleast try it out?

And you have been shown to be wrong, the clans will have a clearly inferior build being unable to contest an similar IS laservomit when going laservomit meta mech vs laservomit meta mech in the heavy class.

Edited by Sixpack, 12 May 2018 - 02:56 PM.

[SFC174]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 02:44 PM, said:

You do realize clan AC's were put in their because of game coding issues. They weren't actually mean to be used.

True or not, do you think that makes your position stronger?

[Christophe Ivanov]

Monkey Lover, on 11 May 2018 - 07:52 PM, said:

You really going to cancel orders over half a second you will have to delay a few weapons? You could improve your laser vomit builds and make two sets of vomit. This how i run most of mine so i get more dmg out. This nerf will not effect me.

Over all its going to make laser vomit more deadly when people learn

Just remember, you're not the only player on MWO. In fact, I see more not happy with the nerfing than others who do not care. Like the previous poster cares enough to cancel as they feel strong about the changes. If you don't that's OK, just remember people see things differently and alot see PGI's Nerfing lasers are just WRONG.

As I have said many times in the last, STOP NERFING PERIOD! This BS about Balance is BS. Why? Because they keep on Nerfing and that's the prof there on it;s own. Why do you think many have left or like me, do not play as much as I used too?

NERFING.

Constant changing the game in this BS about balance is a huge turnoff to the point enough quit or just do not play much anymore.

When I paid for my mechs, weapons, etc, I paid for them at the time and equipped my mechs the way they are based on the current performance of said mech and weapons AT THE TIME I PAID FOR THEM.

I DID NOT pay for PGI to NERF them to submission AFTER I paid for them.

If PGI wants to do this so called, "Balance" Then do what lore ment history to do, Create new versions or newer weapons that are improvements over the current older weapons and leave the current weapons ALONE!
Let the masses choose what they wish to mount on their mechs within Lore constraints.

With all this Nerfing for so called balance, what's the point in having newer mechs anyway?

[Mortalcoil]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 May 2018 - 02:55 PM, said:

Closer to 30% - got it?

30% of clan mechs use omnipods? You're funny. This is why people call it the brown sea.

SFC174, on 12 May 2018 - 03:02 PM, said:

True or not, do you think that makes your position stronger?

My position is clan Uac's were meant to be put into the game. Clan AC's were not. They were not meant to be used. So who cares about them. You are bringing up pointless things.

Christophe Ivanov, on 12 May 2018 - 03:10 PM, said:

Just remember, you're not the only player on MWO. In fact, I see more not happy with the nerfing than others who do not care. Like the previous poster cares enough to cancel as they feel strong about the changes. If you don't that's OK, just remember people see things differently and alot see PGI's Nerfing lasers are just WRONG.

As I have said many times in the last, STOP NERFING PERIOD! This BS about Balance is BS. Why? Because they keep on Nerfing and that's the prof there on it;s own. Why do you think many have left or like me, do not play as much as I used too?

NERFING.

Constant changing the game in this BS about balance is a huge turnoff to the point enough quit or just do not play much anymore.

When I paid for my mechs, weapons, etc, I paid for them at the time and equipped my mechs the way they are based on the current performance of said mech and weapons AT THE TIME I PAID FOR THEM.

I DID NOT pay for PGI to NERF them to submission AFTER I paid for them.

If PGI wants to do this so called, "Balance" Then do what lore ment history to do, Create new versions or newer weapons that are improvements over the current older weapons and leave the current weapons ALONE!
Let the masses choose what they wish to mount on their mechs within Lore constraints.

With all this Nerfing for so called balance, what's the point in having newer mechs anyway?

I get it, you would prefer to be overpowered. That's fine. Selfish, but fine.

[Jay Leon Hart]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

30% of clan mechs use omnipods? You're funny. This is why people call it the brown sea.

Yeah, I derped - that's ~30% don't use OmniPods, I changed it once I noticed. ~70% use OmniPods.

I thought it was called the brown sea because of all your crying?

[Mortalcoil]

Jay Leon Hart, on 12 May 2018 - 03:19 PM, said:

Yeah, I derped - that's ~30% don't use OmniPods, I changed it once I noticed. ~70% use OmniPods.

I thought it was called the brown sea because of all your crying?

I learned that crying works on PGI. So I might as well use it.

[vibrant]

Mortalcoil, must you be so flippant? You can make points without insulting people, you can be constructive instead of destructive. Please, we're all adults here.

[SFC174]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 03:15 PM, said:

My position is clan Uac's were meant to be put into the game. Clan AC's were not. They were not meant to be used. So who cares about them. You are bringing up pointless things.

No, your position was that Clan players should refit ballistic omnipods and not worry about the laser nerf. My counter was that Clan ballistics are generally inferior to IS for the reasons stated, hence the tendency for Clan focused players to go energy build.

Whether or not Clan AC was ever meant to be in the game (an assertion I find suspect, but it really doesn't matter for the purposes of debate) the fact that they are in the game and inferior to standard IS ACs does not support your suggestion that Clan players simply adapt and go ballistic (double entendre intended....).

You should really think your arguments through.

[Mortalcoil]

vibrant, on 12 May 2018 - 03:28 PM, said:

Mortalcoil, must you be so flippant? You can make points without insulting people, you can be constructive instead of destructive. Please, we're all adults here.

oh, yeah that's right, I forgot, Clan isn't supposed to be flippant.

Ok, let me get this straight

Clan isn't "OP", clan is more "skillfull."

Clanners didn't "cry" to get the nerfs removed. They had "constructive criticism."

There is that better? My bad. I forgot we weren't allowed to be honest about how OP clan is. If we did that then they might actually balance the game.

and, yes, we are so mature that we made a post with over 100 replies complaining about the nerfs, very mature and adult.
Also, who exactly did I insult?

[4rcs1ne]

There is no such thing as incremental balance changes with PGI. It's either all or nothing.

[Mortalcoil]

SFC174, on 12 May 2018 - 03:33 PM, said:

No, your position was that Clan players should refit ballistic omnipods and not worry about the laser nerf. My counter was that Clan ballistics are generally inferior to IS for the reasons stated, hence the tendency for Clan focused players to go energy build.

Whether or not Clan AC was ever meant to be in the game (an assertion I find suspect, but it really doesn't matter for the purposes of debate) the fact that they are in the game and inferior to standard IS ACs does not support your suggestion that Clan players simply adapt and go ballistic (double entendre intended....).

You should really think your arguments through.

You can find it suspect all you want, but the designers have literally said that clan AC's were put in the game because of ammo coding issues, and clan UAC's are just fine. The reason why clans use laser vomit is because it is by far the best thing in the game, something the nerfs were trying to address. There is no reason to go clan ballistic because clan laser vomit is just better. I'm sorry you don't like nerfs, but clan laser vomit is the most powerful thing in the game. That's why clan doesn't use ballistics. I mean, don't you see the ridiculousness here?

[vibrant]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 03:45 PM, said:

oh, yeah that's right, I forgot, Clan isn't supposed to be flippant.

Ok, let me get this straight

Clan isn't "OP", clan is more "skillfull."

Clanners didn't "cry" to get the nerfs removed. They had "constructive criticism."

There is that better? My bad. I forgot we weren't allowed to be honest about how OP clan is. If we did that then they might actually balance the game.

and, yes, we are so mature that we made a post with over 100 replies complaining about the nerfs, very mature and adult.
Also, who exactly did I insult?

Clan laser vomit is an issue, few people here would say otherwise. As has been stated numerous times, heavy-handed blanket nerfs reducing factors by 33%-50%, that affect non-problematic mechs more than problematic ones, without testing, without any iterative change, is clearly not the way to go. PGI have said before that they won't do it, yet they keep on doing it.

I'm not sure what's going on in your life, but calling people crybabies is an insult. Especially when you do it repeatedly, time after time, thread after thread. It's surely something I'd never call my boss, my parents, my partner, or anyone I hold respect for. You've stated in another thread you're not being sarcastic, congratulating people while simultaneously calling them crybabies - do you expect anyone to take this seriously?

Edited by vibrant, 12 May 2018 - 03:51 PM.

[Vxheous]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 03:48 PM, said:

You can find it suspect all you want, but the designers have literally said that clan AC's were put in the game because of ammo coding issues, and clan UAC's are just fine. The reason why clans use laser vomit is because it is by far the best thing in the game, something the nerfs were trying to address. There is no reason to go clan ballistic because clan laser vomit is just better. I'm sorry you don't like nerfs, but clan laser vomit is the most powerful thing in the game. That's why clan doesn't use ballistics. I mean, don't you see the ridiculousness here?

If Clan laser nerfs went ahead as planned, players that prefer to play laser mechs would pretty much just gravitate back to playing IS laser boats, like Warhammers, Grasshoppers, and Black Knights (to a lesser extent due to low mounts). The playstyle doesn't change, other than what constitutes as the strongest laser mechs have simply changed.

Edited by Vxheous, 12 May 2018 - 03:53 PM.