68 replies to this topic

[Johnathan Tanner]

Laser nerfs canceled. Victory!

[Spare Parts Bin]

I switched from twin UAC-5s on my Huntsman Pahket to twin LBX-2s backed up by 4 ERSLs. I just kept jamming when I needed the firepower.

[MischiefSC]

tker 669, on 12 May 2018 - 11:45 AM, said:

My beefs are that balance right now is based around Clan high alpha's, and IS armor quirks. You equalize the firepower of the two it would make sense to bring armor in line with it.

Clan ballistics? I'd rather run IS ballistics to be honest. 3 AC10 Victor in my opinion is much better than the various Night Gyr builds. Also am not sold on all of the lbx2 spam some folks playing Clan against us use...it has not been effective against my guys in Battlemasters and Grasshoppers.

Will your guys style of play be effected? Probably not. However I don't play against anyone in CW that can do what your unit does. Your guys playstyle is pulled off by the high average skill and coordination your guys have.

It really won't even effect my Hellbringers since I have switched back to large pulse build of yore because the dps and range is way more effective to deal with IS armor. My two heavy large/ six mg Sadcat however....

For my money the smarter move for PGI would have been to link ghost heat to the heavies as they did with pulses... That way hardpoint starved mechs wouldn't get the shaft along with the intended targets.

Except armor/structure buffs were never the balance for high alpha because high alpha works every time you pull the trigger, armor works once.

It was balances by higher tonnage in FW and, well, not balanced at all in QP but that's okay because QP is 99.98% cowardly morons. Balance doesn't matter there because tech imbalance pales in comparison to just how stupidly bad at this game most players are. Solaris isn't empty because it's badly designed - the design is excellent for what it is. It's empty because if you're bad you need a team to dilute your incompetence to still win matches and being face to face with the reality of how little you know about how to actually play this game was a bad experience for most the players in MWO.

Tonnage and the armor/structure together helped make the balance work over 4 waves but it was never "balanced". The GH rework still wouldn't have balanced it, which is the problem. Just narrowed what was viable, again. Dialing Clan laser damage back wouldn't have been bad, GH was less than ideal.

Doesn't impact me either way but I just wanted to mention that armor/structure buffs were never a real balancing factor. The Anni would be strong with 0 armor/structure buffs because 5xlbx10/6xAC5 is strong. It just would be overall inferior to other assaults.not by a lot, but overall by a bit.

Balance has been broken for all but like 3 months over the last 3 years. We're just used to it. I don't think most people would k ow what to do if balance actually favored IS as much as it's usually favored Clans. What we do know is that when the Clans have faces the same challenges that IS has always faces most of them threw a fit and flounced, so I admit I'm a fan of Clans being the disadvantaged side for a bit. Having trash take itself out is a convenient system.

Not to sound bitter, I'm not. I want people to play and have fun. However MWO has catered for years to the "Bbbbbut muh CLANZ MUST B OP!" blubbering crowd for years and it's put us in this situation. Without question if we had started with better balance we would have a better population today, FW would have gone longer, etc. Now we almost CAN'T fix balance because it triggers a bunch of very vocal people and zomgwtfbbq the game will fail if they have to play on an even field.

This should never have gotten here. People have fallen in love, gotten engaged, then married, knocked up, restated, dropped a baby who has leaned to talk a bit and started to walk in the time PGI has failed to balance tech.

The string of failures involved in that boggles me. Frustrates me. I expect better of people in any professional environment.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

Except armor/structure buffs were never the balance for high alpha because high alpha works every time you pull the trigger, armor works once.

In high alpha gameplay trading is all that matters, health is the currency with which trades are made. Say you have 8 health and the enemy has 10, you do 2.5 damage and he does 2, even though you have the higher alpha and it works every time you pull the trigger you and him are balanced and both die after 4 trades. With IS vs Clan IS has also enjoyed a shorter duration on their laser alphas, giving them an edge in cases where the pilot torso twists well and Clans an edge when they don't.

Spare Parts Bin, on 12 May 2018 - 12:47 PM, said:

I switched from twin UAC-5s on my Huntsman Pahket to twin LBX-2s backed up by 4 ERSLs. I just kept jamming when I needed the firepower.

24 damage is extremely low firepower for someone in need of firepower. There are a large number of superior options that you could choose, especially for the weight that you're spending.

[MischiefSC]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 May 2018 - 06:40 PM, said:

In high alpha gameplay trading is all that matters, health is the currency with which trades are made. Say you have 8 health and the enemy has 10, you do 2.5 damage and he does 2, even though you have the higher alpha and it works every time you pull the trigger you and him are balanced and both die after 4 trades. With IS vs Clan IS has also enjoyed a shorter duration on their laser alphas, giving them an edge in cases where the pilot torso twists well and Clans an edge when they don't.




24 damage is extremely low firepower for someone in need of firepower. There are a large number of superior options that you could choose, especially for the weight that you're spending.

Except it's usually been a difference of 20+ damage per trade in favor of Clans. Even with longer burn times the Clans higher historical damage/tic means that they're doing 50+ damage in the same timeframe the IS equiv (with shorter burn times) are doing 44 or so. Combined with faster cooling means Clans were in position to trade first, letting them start burn sooner.

Which is why it's always been Clans for trade mechs, with very few exceptions, in comp play more or less always.

FW is rarely just long range trading as well; a lot of pushing and fresh vs damaged, etc. Result being consistently higher damage had way way more useful currency in FW. Which is why Clans have won pretty much every event in FW and every season in FW save a couple of months of season 3 consisted of Clans crushing IS.

Even in the context of MRBC or MWOWC with weight limits and 8 v 8 with mixed IS/Clan, Clans consisted of almost all the winning trade mechs. For years.

If my GHR has 100 health on the CT and your GHR has 120 on the CT, you have a significant, telling advantage because we're doing about the same damage/tic. When it's a 64 alpha HBR vs a 47 alpha GHR the HBR was doing over 5.1 damage/tic and the GHR over 4.6 damage/tic, the HBR was doing a bare minimum of 53 damage in the same time the GHR was doing its 47 - not including the time to twist for the GHR and the benefits the HBR had of faster cooling allowing it to be in position to trade first, starting its burn first.

So yeah. The HBR was usually 10+ more damage done *every trade*, and at longer range, with the GHR.

Nobody has seriously ever argued that IS armor/structure buffs made IS mechs competitive for laser trading. The only times IS mechs were relevant for laser trading was more about high mounts for 7 ERLLs on a BLR than anything else. That still lost out in the end to the SNV with CERLLs.

To reiterate, no. IS armor/structure buffs, while not irrelevant, were never, ever a successful balancing factor for IS vs Clan mechs for trading or brawling. They just reduced the advantage gap the Clans had from higher alpha from 'Pants on head, wearing clown shoes ridiculous' to 'still all around superior'.

[Johnathan Tanner]

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

Nobody has seriously ever argued that IS armor/structure buffs made IS mechs competitive for laser trading.

What? I do. I out trade 2 lpl 6 er med ebons and 2 hvy large 4 er med hellbringers all day in grasshoppers. I KNOW I twist faster. I know my humanoid shape naturally spreads their joke *** long burns better. I KNOW I can take hits they cant. Only at the longest ranges do I lose on trades. So I dont. I have a 1-G for that ****.

In my experiance hardcore brawl pushs are the last resort of standard issue drop callers who dont trust their own people to play their mechs to the benefit of the team.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

If you only have a 47 alpha on a Hopper, I'd venture to say you're doing it wrong, 5H=50 5N=52 and 5P=52. You're also ignoring the Wammer with 57 and the BLK with 57 or 60.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 12 May 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

If you only have a 47 alpha on a Hopper, I'd venture to say you're doing it wrong, 5H=50 5N=52 and 5P=52. You're also ignoring the Wammer with 57 and the BLK with 57 or 60.

And Id venture to say that fietoe is lonely without you. Get back in here. And leave my non meta but superior trading hopper alone.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

I had a threesome with Lovas and Javin this morning, Fietoe will be so jealous. What can I say, I still like IS LPLs on hoppers and Bounty hunters and battlemasters and banshees and black knights, although the art department did **** my banshees.

[ANOM O MECH]

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 12:59 PM, said:

Except armor/structure buffs were never the balance for high alpha because high alpha works every time you pull the trigger, armor works once.

It was balances by higher tonnage in FW and, well, not balanced at all in QP but that's okay because QP is 99.98% cowardly morons. Balance doesn't matter there because tech imbalance pales in comparison to just how stupidly bad at this game most players are. Solaris isn't empty because it's badly designed - the design is excellent for what it is. It's empty because if you're bad you need a team to dilute your incompetence to still win matches and being face to face with the reality of how little you know about how to actually play this game was a bad experience for most the players in MWO.

Tonnage and the armor/structure together helped make the balance work over 4 waves but it was never "balanced". The GH rework still wouldn't have balanced it, which is the problem. Just narrowed what was viable, again. Dialing Clan laser damage back wouldn't have been bad, GH was less than ideal.

Doesn't impact me either way but I just wanted to mention that armor/structure buffs were never a real balancing factor. The Anni would be strong with 0 armor/structure buffs because 5xlbx10/6xAC5 is strong. It just would be overall inferior to other assaults.not by a lot, but overall by a bit.

Balance has been broken for all but like 3 months over the last 3 years. We're just used to it. I don't think most people would k ow what to do if balance actually favored IS as much as it's usually favored Clans. What we do know is that when the Clans have faces the same challenges that IS has always faces most of them threw a fit and flounced, so I admit I'm a fan of Clans being the disadvantaged side for a bit. Having trash take itself out is a convenient system.

Not to sound bitter, I'm not. I want people to play and have fun. However MWO has catered for years to the "Bbbbbut muh CLANZ MUST B OP!" blubbering crowd for years and it's put us in this situation. Without question if we had started with better balance we would have a better population today, FW would have gone longer, etc. Now we almost CAN'T fix balance because it triggers a bunch of very vocal people and zomgwtfbbq the game will fail if they have to play on an even field.

This should never have gotten here. People have fallen in love, gotten engaged, then married, knocked up, restated, dropped a baby who has leaned to talk a bit and started to walk in the time PGI has failed to balance tech.

The string of failures involved in that boggles me. Frustrates me. I expect better of people in any professional environment.

I agree that it was not a good balancing methodology.

It is however what PGI has done. Long burn time on lazors, extra magical armor are some of the things currently used. So make these changes and cap alphas to the same or near same values (Clan would still have range, efficiency) and get rid of the quirks.

Agree with you though that Clan pilots seem to want superiority to be outright and unchallenged. I don't want that, I simply want changes to be made that take into account the cumulative effects of all of the other things done in the name of balance.

If they make it so you can't fire heavy larges with meds by ghost heat or whatever I have no problem. Not being able to fire two heavy large though is too much. Also think maybe drop the ermeds to five instead of six.

Remember as well the tonnage thing was apparently to balance population according to Russ. If we were able to search forums properly I would pull up the thread with the screen shot from twitter, but it doesn't matter too much as I think it was disingenuous on his part anyways.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 12 May 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

although the art department did **** my banshees.

What they did to the banshee is some UN high court ****.

[MischiefSC]

Johnathan Tanner, on 12 May 2018 - 08:39 PM, said:

What? I do. I out trade 2 lpl 6 er med ebons and 2 hvy large 4 er med hellbringers all day in grasshoppers. I KNOW I twist faster. I know my humanoid shape naturally spreads their joke *** long burns better. I KNOW I can take hits they cant. Only at the longest ranges do I lose on trades. So I dont. I have a 1-G for that ****.

In my experiance hardcore brawl pushs are the last resort of standard issue drop callers who dont trust their own people to play their mechs to the benefit of the team.

Okay.

So please go explain to all the terribads in MWOWC that they were doing it wrong.

The HLL, ERmed HBR is doing more damage/tic than your GHR. So the people you out-traded were just bad. Your GHR doesn't 'take hits their's can't'. The damage advantage they have wipes out the GHRs additional health in one trade, assuming you have a literally perfect, reaction-time free twist rate 100% of the time every trade.

Hardcore brawl pushes happened in MWOWC, MRBC Div A and in FW and other games by very good teams. It's dictated by the map, drop and mode and the relative teams.

Trading isn't the choice because it's the highest skilled - it's the choice because it's the safest. Doing it effectively absolutely does require high skill; however in a very competitive environment the best choice is the one with the most controllable factors and the best overall odds.

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 12 May 2018 - 08:44 PM, said:

If you only have a 47 alpha on a Hopper, I'd venture to say you're doing it wrong, 5H=50 5N=52 and 5P=52. You're also ignoring the Wammer with 57 and the BLK with 57 or 60.

Again. I'm going to pass on repeating the math that's been done and just point to the most successful mechs used in MWOWC and literally all the seasons of MRBC.

The only thing that's changed this season is Bushies are THE THING in Drop 1 and, to my absolute glee, I'm not the only guy who thinks no Drop 1 is complete without an Urbie.

On shorter range maps you might see a GHR, especially when you've got more than 2 heavies (because Summoner) but usually it's a Night Gyr.

Please point me to the competitive, successful use of Black Knights and Warhammers eclipsing Gyrs, Summoners and HBRs. I want to see it.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

tker 669, on 12 May 2018 - 08:54 PM, said:

I agree that it was not a good balancing methodology.

It is however what PGI has done. Long burn time on lazors, extra magical armor are some of the things currently used. So make these changes and cap alphas to the same or near same values (Clan would still have range, efficiency) and get rid of the quirks.

Agree with you though that Clan pilots seem to want superiority to be outright and unchallenged. I don't want that, I simply want changes to be made that take into account the cumulative effects of all of the other things done in the name of balance.

If they make it so you can't fire heavy larges with meds by ghost heat or whatever I have no problem. Not being able to fire two heavy large though is too much. Also think maybe drop the ermeds to five instead of six.

Remember as well the tonnage thing was apparently to balance population according to Russ. If we were able to search forums properly I would pull up the thread with the screen shot from twitter, but it doesn't matter too much as I think it was disingenuous on his part anyways.

I don't really have a problem with the nerfs if they were implemented in certain combinations, like 2 HLL and 4 ML generating ghost heat etc. It is the blanket application that hinders an already weak class of mechs in the Kit foxes, adders, cougars, vipers, ice ferrets, black lanners, etc that is fundamentally idiotic.

[Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain]

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

Okay.

So please go explain to all the terribads in MWOWC that they were doing it wrong.

The HLL, ERmed HBR is doing more damage/tic than your GHR. So the people you out-traded were just bad. Your GHR doesn't 'take hits their's can't'. The damage advantage they have wipes out the GHRs additional health in one trade, assuming you have a literally perfect, reaction-time free twist rate 100% of the time every trade.

Hardcore brawl pushes happened in MWOWC, MRBC Div A and in FW and other games by very good teams. It's dictated by the map, drop and mode and the relative teams.

Trading isn't the choice because it's the highest skilled - it's the choice because it's the safest. Doing it effectively absolutely does require high skill; however in a very competitive environment the best choice is the one with the most controllable factors and the best overall odds.



Again. I'm going to pass on repeating the math that's been done and just point to the most successful mechs used in MWOWC and literally all the seasons of MRBC.

The only thing that's changed this season is Bushies are THE THING in Drop 1 and, to my absolute glee, I'm not the only guy who thinks no Drop 1 is complete without an Urbie.

On shorter range maps you might see a GHR, especially when you've got more than 2 heavies (because Summoner) but usually it's a Night Gyr.

Please point me to the competitive, successful use of Black Knights and Warhammers eclipsing Gyrs, Summoners and HBRs. I want to see it.

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Comp play isn't faction play, never has been, never will be. In Comp play you're going to bring the absolute meta for what you allowed to bring and chances are, both side are going to have the exact same mechs for each weight class. No one is arguing that the top mechs in comp are clan mechs using clan tech. Although I'd venture that much of that has to do with hard point placement compounded with the need to control/deny area as a result of always playing conquest and not the individual weapon stats. Which is why you see ERLLs, PPCs, and Gauss and not HLL/ERMLL builds. At least if we're talking MWOWC. I haven't dabbled in MRBC in a long time, so maybe the meta involves those things there.

We're talking specifically IS- Clan balance in FP and claiming that a HBR or ebon jag is flat out superior to a GHR/WHM/BLK in every way, circumstance, and situation is just false. It is quite easy to out trade clans vomit with IS vomit. You just have to be semi intelligent and close to IS optimal range to do so. Which is easy enough on the majority of the maps in FP rotation. How much damage does it take to destroy a side torso from a hellbringer with no tree? 90? 60 armor HP and 30 structure HP? So If I shoot your left side torso twice before your weapons recycle, I take at least half your weaponry before you get to fire a second time. How is that for math?

I've never felt at a disadvantage on either side IS/Clan running vomit to be honest. The only thing that ever really feels like a disadvantage was when IS was tonnage stacking super quirked ANNI's roughnecks and IV4s. Just because it was so many hit points to chew through. But with tonnage being increased to 255, not really an issue anymore, unless of course they drop clan alpha down to 52(no GH) while keeping IS alpha at 47-60 (no GH) and let IS keep all their armor/structure and better skill tree.

If you can't see that as a serious shift in balance towards IS, then I'm not really sure what to tell you, Other than it's great that it doesn't affect you and your brawl pushes.

[Roland09]

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 08:03 PM, said:

... facts and math...

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

... more facts.

Good Sir, I sincerely applaud your steadfastness in re-iterating your factual assessment in such a level-headed manner.

Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 12 May 2018 - 09:32 PM, said:

You're comparing apples to oranges here. Comp play isn't faction play, never has been, never will be. [...]

Good Sir, it seems to me that you are moving goal posts here. First, it was about trading (and it has been shown that the idea that IS outtrades the Clanners, based on the GHR vs. HBR example, is mathematically wrong). Next, Mischief countered personal, anecdotal evidence with wider experience from com play.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Roland09, on 12 May 2018 - 10:35 PM, said:

Good Sir, I sincerely applaud your steadfastness in re-iterating your factual assessment in such a level-headed manner.



Good Sir, it seems to me that you are moving goal posts here. First, it was about trading (and it has been shown that the idea that IS outtrades the Clanners, based on the GHR vs. HBR example, is mathematically wrong). Next, Mischief countered personal, anecdotal evidence with wider experience from com play.

Good sir, I must insist that you present this mathematical and anecdotal evidence in pure form. Here. Now.

We are waiting.

Edited by Johnathan Tanner, 12 May 2018 - 10:46 PM.

[MischiefSC]

Johnathan Tanner, on 12 May 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

Good sir, I must insist that you present this mathematical and anecdotal evidence in pure form. Here. Now.

We are waiting.

There is no such thing as 'anecdotal evidence' because anecdotes are not 'evidence' in any sort of scientific sense. Anecdotal evidence is, from an actual useful standpoint, not only worthless but less than worthless in that it's inherently biased toward an implied value it doesn't have. It takes attention off where it should be, which is real evidence.

Comp play isn't any different from group queue or QP of faction play for trading. Full stop. If you had 12 GHRs vs 12 HBRs and identically equal players the HBRs would win because they're doing more damage per tic at longer ranges and cooling faster.

That isn't anecdotal and it's not trying to say that FW has different math. Sure, the strategy and tactics are different - specifically in that Clans don't *need* to take HBRs most the time because they have even better options - like Deathstrikes or SNVs vs BLRs, which is another one that's already been settled by those two mechs playing the same role on different teams in comp play. You don't have the same restrictions in FW so you can take things you wouldn't take to FW.

FW 'balance' is different specifically because you're usually playing against bads. It's also got some more complex strategy stuff - the impacts of waves and the different drop deck options giving you a lot more tools to play with and build with than comp play. However how each mech performs is the same. The math is the same. The roles they play are the same.

That Clan mechs trade better in laservomit on average isn't opinion, it's been shown both mathematically and in practice time and time and time and time again in competitive play. That's valuable not because of some inherent virtue to comp play but because it is the environment that does the best to solve for variance in player skill. Everyone on both teams is far closer to relative skill than you see in other modes.

What confuses me is that this is even a discussion. Clans carry a bigger alpha for laservomit, cool faster, have better range and damage/tic than anything IS brings. This is why Clans are over 75% of the mechs taken by the best players in the game in competitive matches against equally skilled players. It's also why the Anni is a very common assault in competitive play on maps and drops that it would play well in. Also why the Bushie is the typical dup in drop 1. What works best is what works best.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

MischiefSC, on 12 May 2018 - 08:58 PM, said:

Okay.

So please go explain to all the terribads in MWOWC that they were doing it wrong.

The HLL, ERmed HBR is doing more damage/tic than your GHR. So the people you out-traded were just bad. Your GHR doesn't 'take hits their's can't'. The damage advantage they have wipes out the GHRs additional health in one trade, assuming you have a literally perfect, reaction-time free twist rate 100% of the time every trade.

Hardcore brawl pushes happened in MWOWC, MRBC Div A and in FW and other games by very good teams. It's dictated by the map, drop and mode and the relative teams.

Trading isn't the choice because it's the highest skilled - it's the choice because it's the safest. Doing it effectively absolutely does require high skill; however in a very competitive environment the best choice is the one with the most controllable factors and the best overall odds.



Again. I'm going to pass on repeating the math that's been done and just point to the most successful mechs used in MWOWC and literally all the seasons of MRBC.

The only thing that's changed this season is Bushies are THE THING in Drop 1 and, to my absolute glee, I'm not the only guy who thinks no Drop 1 is complete without an Urbie.

On shorter range maps you might see a GHR, especially when you've got more than 2 heavies (because Summoner) but usually it's a Night Gyr.

Please point me to the competitive, successful use of Black Knights and Warhammers eclipsing Gyrs, Summoners and HBRs. I want to see it.

If we're talking MWOWC then Hellbringer laser vomit doesn't need to even be brought up.

Check the finals: https://www.youtube....K62AZndmAH9ICHq

Throughout all the matches Hellbringer shows up 3 times piloted by the same guy, each time on Polar Highlands, each time with 4 ERLLs, not a single ERML or HLL. Infact there were no laser vomit heavies used in the WC finals. Summoner is an ERPPC poptart, Nightgyr is Gaussvomit (or potentially all ERLL for that one group that thought that might work). It seems that in competitive play the laser vomit heavies are mostly outclassed, possibly due to a 1+ second burn time at mid range being suicidal against coordinated teams.

Also damage per tick for Clan 78 damage alpha is 50.32, damage per tick for IS 6ERML+3LL is 51.81. Clan gets max of 10% reduction in duration and IS gets 15%, so it becomes 55.91 vs 60.96. So you have higher damage/tick and higher armor in the IS mech, allowing you to negate their higher overall damage through twisting.

Also if we go back to Tharkad IS won 66% more than Clans did, higher number of invasion wins and higher number of scouting wins, though it was counted as a Clan victory. So I'm unsure about the "IS haven't won any FP events" claim really matters when you dig deeper.

Edited by Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, 12 May 2018 - 11:28 PM.

[Roland09]

Johnathan Tanner, on 12 May 2018 - 10:48 PM, said:

Good sir, I must insist that you present this mathematical and anecdotal evidence in pure form. Here. Now.

We are waiting.

In order not to keep you waiting, I will point to the post below. It is one among others, but since you can't be bothered to search/read/think for yourself, neither will I.

https://mwomercs.com...72#entry5941372

No need to thank me.

[Johnathan Tanner]

Im still waiting for that raw data fellas.