68 replies to this topic

[C H E E K I E Z]

Rip 4.5k-5k dmg games on clan side. At least on anything outside snow maps. With erll spam

[MischiefSC]

McGoat, on 14 May 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

Wait, you read all of that.. twice essentially? I didn't even read it once.

Because here again is Mischief talking at length as if he is a SME on something, and surprise he's played some Div E comp matches now and here he is talking about comp.

So I guess I'm an *** for not reading, but I don't care as 90% of your post in some way alludes to your team being so awesome when you're just super GNx.

I like your MWO persona, but balance is not something any one should be proposing until they genuinely understand all sides by application and not watching or theorizing. (Surprise, PGI does the same, except they don't just talk about balance without applying, they execute)

Div D! And it's been pretty fun. I strongly recommend people play a season in MRBC, it's like a much more enjoyable version of group queue. I wish FW actually had the drop deck limitations that MRBC does; first wave has to be X, second Y, etc. It would add a ton more variety.

However, again, you keep trying to make this a you vs me thing. I'm not claiming to understand anything. Hence the no 'we'. As to understanding by application, all that gets you is anecdotal experience. You're making the exact same claims every guy who says LRMs are awesome because he he does so great in Tier 5 with his LRM Scorch and everyone else isn't doing it right.

All I've said is 'This is what the best players in MWO have done. This is what they've said about it. This is what the math says'.

That's it.

Balance is balance. The strawman of '8v8 on Canyon balance isn't useful to 48 v 48 Vitric' is ridiculous because you wouldn't take the same mechs - however what mech would trade best against the other is still the same. Whatever would trade best on Vitric in 8 v 8 comp play would trade best in 48 v 48 FW play.

The reason comp is useful for balance and accurate for balance isn't because of the strats used or how many players are on the field. It's just because the players on each side have the closest margin of player skill, giving the clearest view of how the mechs perform.

C H E E K I E Z, on 14 May 2018 - 07:52 AM, said:

Rip 4.5k-5k dmg games on clan side. At least on anything outside snow maps. With erll spam

The nerfs got shelved.

[Palfatreos]

bring clan tonnage to 260 gimme my goddamit 4 ebj already stop this 5 tonnage crap

[K O Z A K]

MischiefSC, on 14 May 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

Balance is balance. The strawman of '8v8 on Canyon balance isn't useful to 48 v 48 Vitric' is ridiculous because you wouldn't take the same mechs - however what mech would trade best against the other is still the same. Whatever would trade best on Vitric in 8 v 8 comp play would trade best in 48 v 48 FW play.

The reason comp is useful for balance and accurate for balance isn't because of the strats used or how many players are on the field. It's just because the players on each side have the closest margin of player skill, giving the clearest view of how the mechs perform.

The nerfs got shelved.

But its not now is it. You are taking a single aspect of this game while completely ignoring a lot of other factors and are using it to justify your biased subjective opinion. And you've been doing this for years supporting your opinion by rolling pugs with kcom pushes and claim to always know what the top end comp guys know. You're exactly right in that you wouldnt take the same mechs. Neither would you trade in a lot of cases in FP. Mrbc 8v8 conquest is not representative of FP 48v48 multiple modes, especially siege, lacking the splitting of tech, different objectives and much more directed confrontation lanes. I get it, you still hold a grudge against clan from your davion loyalist days when clans did in fact have serious advantages, but those days are gone.

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 14 May 2018 - 01:00 PM, said:

But its not now is it. You are taking a single aspect of this game while completely ignoring a lot of other factors and are using it to justify your biased subjective opinion. And you've been doing this for years supporting your opinion by rolling pugs with kcom pushes and claim to always know what the top end comp guys know. You're exactly right in that you wouldnt take the same mechs. Neither would you trade in a lot of cases in FP. Mrbc 8v8 conquest is not representative of FP 48v48 multiple modes, especially siege, lacking the splitting of tech, different objectives and much more directed confrontation lanes. I get it, you still hold a grudge against clan from your davion loyalist days when clans did in fact have serious advantages, but those days are gone.

You keep trying to make this a matter of me stating anything from personal experience or that I know what anyone else thinks. That's not happening and never happening. I also don't speak for KCom - though KCom has beaten every team in this game, repeatedly, and certainly lost to just about every team in this game as well. The implication that any of the teams involved only beat pugs is, again, disingenuous.

You're trying to equate strategy and tactics (what deck you bring, how you play the map) with how mechs perform at a specific role - range trading. The strategies and tactics that play out in competitive play (league or MWOWC) are no the same, specifically because of the limits that league matches have on what you can take to a given match.

However how mechs play in a given role is the same. If it's a heavy and you're trading on Grim Portico it doesn't matter if you've got 3 other mechs in your deck or just the one drop. In the context of the trades between the two teams on the field right there and even more on point for what we're discussing if you've got a team mostly of GHRs vs a team mostly of Clan laservomit, who is winning trades then absolutely comp play isn't just useful but a better measure.

FW isn't a good testbed for balance for the exact same reason QP isn't a good testbed for balance. In a big picture way to look at balance between IS and Clan it's useful but taken with a few grains of salt.

None of this is my opinion. I'm not giving my opinion because one persons opinion - yours, mine, anyone elses, is irrelevant. It doesn't matter. What's funny is that you guys are saying 'You don't play Div A Comp or win MWOWC, you don't know!' All I'm saying is 'All the people winning in Div A MRBC for years and who won MWOWC, when given the chance to pick mechs for range trading, picked the following mechs. When it's been discussed in the forums here's the reasoning they've given and the math they put up to say why'.

To which you say 'FW plays totally different!' It does. Absolutely - for the strategy and tactics in how you pick your mechs and what positions you play on the map. However the way those mechs play in the trade? That's exactly the same.

We're only arguing a single aspect of the game, range trading with laservomit. That single aspect is the same in QP, FW and any league play.


That and you guys keep trying to get to an ad hominem. Making baseless assumptions on my reasoning or personal insults to shift it back to a 'you say/I say'.

It's not. My opinion has never come up in this discussion. Just pointing out what has been taken by the actual 'SMEs' (to steal McGoats use of the term) every time it's come up and what they actually said about it.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 May 2018 - 01:49 PM.

[MischiefSC]

This whole thing has gotten way more involved than it needed to. Especially since laser trading almost doesn't exist anymore for IS or Clan, save for ERLL stuff with SNVs and Gyrs (ERLLs + Gauss) or with MPLs on Wolfhounds. Sometimes you've got CERML HBKs.

It's all 3UAC2 Dragons and boated ballistics on Annis and various Clan mechs. And Linebackers for days.

[K O Z A K]

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to go after you personally in any way. I'm just pointing out you have a (quite possibly subconscious) bias against clans as you repeatedly choose to emphasize clan advantages while disregarding IS advantages to prove that clan is superior. I am certainly not stating that kcom is only rolling pugs, not at all, just that you frequently used Kcom linebacker rushes to once again justify the clan op point.

You're looking at trading like it's always a 600m game where 2 mechs are taking full burns at each other, ignoring all other considerations. The point I'm trying to make is that if we are to look at balance in FP, it's an incredibly complicated subject where many factors have to be considered.

[MischiefSC]

Hazeclaw, on 14 May 2018 - 03:51 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to go after you personally in any way. I'm just pointing out you have a (quite possibly subconscious) bias against clans as you repeatedly choose to emphasize clan advantages while disregarding IS advantages to prove that clan is superior. I am certainly not stating that kcom is only rolling pugs, not at all, just that you frequently used Kcom linebacker rushes to once again justify the clan op point.

You're looking at trading like it's always a 600m game where 2 mechs are taking full burns at each other, ignoring all other considerations. The point I'm trying to make is that if we are to look at balance in FP, it's an incredibly complicated subject where many factors have to be considered.

Right now I'm actually pretty happy with Clan/IS balance in FW. Anni is super strong, Cyclops, Mauler, IS has some excellent assaults (for big boating the best by far) and the tonnage to take them. IS Heavies are not bad at all - Grasshopper, WHR, Roughneck, IV4 are all great and solid with some good variety. Bushwhacker and Assassin are strong and the Cicada and Griffin are not bad. Well, not great but not bad. Lights? Wolfhound with MPLs is a really strong light.

Clans have MADIIC, MCMKII/Deathstrike which have some really strong builds for a variety of situations. They don't have anything that's the massive, slow, tanky boating firepower of the IS but that's never been their best suit anyway. Linebacker, Orion IIC, Night Gyr still has several places for long range trade or dakka boating. Mad Dog is strong too. HBKIIC is incredible, Huntsman is great too. Nova has uses, so does Shadowcat poptart and Ice Ferret. Critlynx is amazing, Cheetah is still good just not as niche as the Lynx. Piranha is amazing.

Trading however is trading. QP, group queue, FW or league play. Trading in FW works like it does anywhere else. Just like brawling does. How useful those strats are varies from QP, group, FW or league play but the best brawler in one is the best brawler in the other. What differs is how useful brawling is in general. Same thing with trading.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 May 2018 - 04:58 PM.

[Tesunie]

MischiefSC, on 14 May 2018 - 12:23 PM, said:

You're making the exact same claims every guy who says LRMs are awesome because he he does so great in Tier 5 with his LRM Scorch and everyone else isn't doing it right.

HEY! I don't own a Scorch... and I'm not T5... and I don't claim LRMs are awesome, just usable and can be an effective weapon...

Wait...

I'm guessing you aren't talking about me then.


Otherwise, besides a few fun comments every now and again for "entertainment" value... I'm gonna agree with this:

MischiefSC, on 14 May 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

Right now I'm actually pretty happy with Clan/IS balance in FW.

That isn't to say I don't believe things could still be tweaked for better balance, but it isn't horrible right now from what I can see. I actually like playing my IS mechs as of late and I don't feel any stronger nor weaker when against Clan mechs. I've been doing really good with my Uziel and my Marauder as of late...