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Thoughts On Is Vs Clan Balance Next Patch?


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#41 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 01:52 AM

While I'm thinking on the subject of damage per tick. A triple IS LPL build has 52.68 damage per tick (tick being a second). Not really adding to the argument of which side is superior with this in any objective way, just would like to share a subjective piece. That deals with some mathematics found in a fight that I remember.



I generally find my triple LPL Hunchback to be a rather competitive trader mech. Has some decent durability and quirks along with all the guns being cockpit height and being pretty agile. It can end up getting out there and making trades. Some say that due to reaction time people will generally take almost full damage from a Clan laser attack since the ~.45 second difference between the two beams may get reduced by reaction time if the player is only reacting to the incoming beam after their own beam ends.

Hunchback 4P gets a 10% duration reduction among other things, so its LPLs are actually 25% shorter duration once skilled, blowing its damage per tick all the way up to 59.70 with the duration being ever so slightly over 0.50 seconds. This can mean that in a situation where the Hunchback has peeker's advantage (which is easy to get since it only has to expose so little and has good mobility so it takes little time to expose) they can get a shot off on the enemy then lets say the enemy takes a quarter of a second to react, turn their mech, then fire. This means the hunchback can get its full damage out while only absorbing 0.25 seconds of the enemy damage (which would be about 14 damage assuming Hellbringer with 78 damage alpha and full duration nodes). If the Hunchback also is reacting to his lasers ending their beam rather than having built up the muscle memory to raise, shoot, hide, then we can assume he takes up to 0.25 seconds more of the duration, doubling the damage he takes to 28.

This means that in this case with reactions modeled and the Hunchback pilot not being in tune with his mech he still gets 30 damage for every 28 he takes from the enemy in a trade assuming he is being the aggressor. Though the Hunchback only has a 3.35 second refire time (5% cooldown quirk, skill tree on cooldown not accounted for but in favor of IS, duration nodes and quirks accounted for) while the Hellbringer has a 7.145 refire time (once again duration accounted for, not cooldown). This means that the Hunchback actually gets 3 shots off before the Hellbringer can reload after its first shot, not only this but the Hellbringer is actually unable to fire at the end of that cooldown (even with maxed out heat gen and cooling based nodes in skilltree) or they will overheat without the help of a coolshot, potentially allowing the Hunchback to get a total of 4 shots out before the Hellbringer is able to actually fire its second shot.

So grand total would be Hunchback with 120 damage dealt vs Hellbringer with 78 (only about 28 effective). Hellbringer only has 126 health. So Hunchback may have to worry about the second alpha before landing a killing blow on the Hellbringer, alternatively it uses the time to focus on side torsos and breaks off the main side before a second alpha can be done.

Anyway I just like doing random math early in the morning and was thinking back of an experience in which I 1v1'd a Hellbringer on Tourmaline in my Hunchback 4P (my allies and his allies were further off, I had noticed him trying to get flanking shots and went to deal with him) and I had absolutely maimed him, which I found surprising at the time since he had a heavier mech with what I would have thought would be a deadlier loadout. He did extremely little effective damage to me by the time I had ripped him limb from limb, taking the side torso kill route, crippling him before he could get out another powerful strike and giving me some time to cool off a bit. Note that aside from initial engagement the fight was done without cover, as I rushed into point blank ranges with him, hunting him down before he could slink behind a pillar.


On a tangent, I'm currently in love with using the Dragon with dual HPPCs, giving me 30 damage strikes with infinite damage per tick due to being totally frontloaded, generally meaning I can just make free trades, peeking up and being behind cover by the time my projectiles hit. Prior to new tech I was running triple LPL in it, but that required using the lower arm mount, HPPC is all in the high torso mount.



/blog

#42 MischiefSC

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:56 AM

View PostChampion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 12 May 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:


If we're talking MWOWC then Hellbringer laser vomit doesn't need to even be brought up.

Check the finals: https://www.youtube....K62AZndmAH9ICHq

Throughout all the matches Hellbringer shows up 3 times piloted by the same guy, each time on Polar Highlands, each time with 4 ERLLs, not a single ERML or HLL. Infact there were no laser vomit heavies used in the WC finals. Summoner is an ERPPC poptart, Nightgyr is Gaussvomit (or potentially all ERLL for that one group that thought that might work). It seems that in competitive play the laser vomit heavies are mostly outclassed, possibly due to a 1+ second burn time at mid range being suicidal against coordinated teams.

Also damage per tick for Clan 78 damage alpha is 50.32, damage per tick for IS 6ERML+3LL is 51.81. Clan gets max of 10% reduction in duration and IS gets 15%, so it becomes 55.91 vs 60.96. So you have higher damage/tick and higher armor in the IS mech, allowing you to negate their higher overall damage through twisting.

Also if we go back to Tharkad IS won 66% more than Clans did, higher number of invasion wins and higher number of scouting wins, though it was counted as a Clan victory. So I'm unsure about the "IS haven't won any FP events" claim really matters when you dig deeper.


Because Summoner and Night Gyr are on most those maps and modes a better choice.

What you didn't see was duped GHRs. Clan laservomit builds out range and out DPS the IS ones, I get that you're wanting to put up a too hot IS build with mostly 330m range against a heat viable Clan one with 600m range and pretend nobody will notice but... yeah. Not the same. This season in MRBC a couple of GHRs have shown up but it's SMN and LBKs getting duped.

As to FW, that wasn't brought up by me but anyone who actually was present in FW and saw the map and played the events was there to see Clans win. Tharkad was a joke with minimal population/participation but was the closest to an IS win we've seen in 3 years.

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 May 2018 - 05:56 AM.


#43 MischiefSC

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 06:01 AM

Oh, and for mediums for trading it's all HBK IIC. No IS HBKs.

Because the anecdotal "My LRM Scorch does incredible" arguments are irrelevant.

#44 Jaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 02:52 PM

View PostRoland09, on 12 May 2018 - 10:35 PM, said:

Good Sir, I sincerely applaud your steadfastness in re-iterating your factual assessment in such a level-headed manner.



Good Sir, it seems to me that you are moving goal posts here. First, it was about trading (and it has been shown that the idea that IS outtrades the Clanners, based on the GHR vs. HBR example, is mathematically wrong). Next, Mischief countered personal, anecdotal evidence with wider experience from com play.



Good sir, the title of the thread is IS vs. Clan balance, and it's in the Faction Play forums.... I didn't move any goal posts. I merely stated that Mischief's supposition that all trading takes place at optimal range for clans is not only false, but it's down right idiotic for people playing IS to do so as it pertains to FP. It is also a fallacy to claim that the only thing that matters in terms of balance is total single alpha potential and damage per tick.

Comp play is played at different level and with different goals in mind and coincidentally on maps not in the FP rotation for the most part. I'm not saying that the best comp mechs aren't clan mechs. I am saying that the suggested nerf really doesn't affect comp play at all and therefore comp play is irrelevant to FP balance.

I am also saying that the difference between a HBR and GHR as it applies to FP is very small and in many situations favors the GHR. A near 20% reduction in the firepower of the HBR and a negative overall impact on the majority of clan lights and mediums that are all but forced to run laser vomit to even be remotely effective will have a significant impact on FP IS/Clan balance and would shift balance towards IS.

#45 MischiefSC

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 03:36 PM

View PostJaybles-The-PegLeg-PotatoCaptain, on 13 May 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:



Good sir, the title of the thread is IS vs. Clan balance, and it's in the Faction Play forums.... I didn't move any goal posts. I merely stated that Mischief's supposition that all trading takes place at optimal range for clans is not only false, but it's down right idiotic for people playing IS to do so as it pertains to FP. It is also a fallacy to claim that the only thing that matters in terms of balance is total single alpha potential and damage per tick.

Comp play is played at different level and with different goals in mind and coincidentally on maps not in the FP rotation for the most part. I'm not saying that the best comp mechs aren't clan mechs. I am saying that the suggested nerf really doesn't affect comp play at all and therefore comp play is irrelevant to FP balance.

I am also saying that the difference between a HBR and GHR as it applies to FP is very small and in many situations favors the GHR. A near 20% reduction in the firepower of the HBR and a negative overall impact on the majority of clan lights and mediums that are all but forced to run laser vomit to even be remotely effective will have a significant impact on FP IS/Clan balance and would shift balance towards IS.


Except Clan laservomit hasn't been the thing in FW for a while. Most Clan laser builds are MPLs which wouldn't have cared. The only time anyone who doesn't suck would take a laservomit trade mech for Clans would be on Alpine or Polar where they absolutely do trade advantageously with the GHR - at any range.

That's the thing, the HBR can absolutely out-trade the GHR for 5 tons less because it's doing more damage/tic. Especially in FW where focus fire scrubs that armor/structure quirk advantage in ranged trade play. However given that there's only a handful of good teams in FW and only a couple play the range trade game, you guys tend to go same side - not a bad thing as you share players a lot. However it's almost never that two teams in FW who are both good at the trade game are playing alternate sides.

However comp play has the same objectives - win trades. How those trades play out in comp is relevant specifically because the skill disparity between the players is so narrow.

In FW Clans do t usually need to play the range game. They can - and they have an advantage. However the LBK and other fast mechs (MLX, even HBK, SCR, MADIIC) just make the push game so strong on most maps it's the go to option. You don't need to trade. That doesn't happen in comp because of chassis limits and no respawns. If comp had respawns and you could run 12 assault/heavies you'd see a lot more rushes. Also a lot more SNVs.

#46 McGoat

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:00 PM

How about we bring IS trading mechs, and you fine folks bring Clan trading mechs, and since you subtlety state that we are equals.. Clans should win.

Let's do it Posted Image

Then, you can bring them in proposed nerf form for a second round!

Edited by McGoat, 13 May 2018 - 05:00 PM.


#47 MischiefSC

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:07 PM

View PostMcGoat, on 13 May 2018 - 05:00 PM, said:

How about we bring IS trading mechs, and you fine folks bring Clan trading mechs, and since you subtlety state that we are equals.. Clans should win.

Let's do it Posted Image

Then, you can bring them in proposed nerf form for a second round!


Okay. I'll round up some top tier players in Clan trade mechs and you get your A team in IS laser trade mechs.

All I have to do is find 12 people willing to play FW on at the same time....

I've already said the nerfs were bad. A better solution would be Clan DHS than whack-a-mole with weapons and screwing all the marginal builds even more.

The argument was Clans being better at laservomit than IS, which they are. That doesn't mean using Ghost Heat to screw everything from the 2hll, 6mg Shadowcat to the Rainbow Brite SNV build to the 2hll, 4xcerml HBKIIC is good. However Champions arguments that IS laservomit is already better is wrong. Its been wrong for years, because people were saying that 2 months after Clans were released and it's always been wrong.

Edited by MischiefSC, 13 May 2018 - 05:10 PM.


#48 McGoat

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:34 PM

No no no

12 KCOM Posted Image

The argument you always make is "we", referring to KCOM.

By your logic, and confidence, your team should beat ours trade/trade.

*8v8 works, too

Edited by McGoat, 13 May 2018 - 06:16 PM.


#49 Johnathan Tanner

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:46 PM

View PostMcGoat, on 13 May 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

No no no

12 KCOM Posted Image

The argument you always make is "we", referring to KCOM.

By your logic, and confidence, your team should beat ours trade/trade.

Posted Image

#50 Tesunie

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 05:56 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 13 May 2018 - 06:01 AM, said:


*Lets bring LRMs into a laser argument* (literally not what you said.)



Oh, you called for me!? Posted Image

#51 ANOM O MECH

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Posted 13 May 2018 - 08:53 PM

View PostMischiefSC, on 13 May 2018 - 03:36 PM, said:

Except Clan laservomit hasn't been the thing in FW for a while. Most Clan laser builds are MPLs which wouldn't have cared. The only time anyone who doesn't suck would take a laservomit trade mech for Clans would be on Alpine or Polar where they absolutely do trade advantageously with the GHR - at any range.



What?

Most people don't think BCMC sucks and the heavy large Hellbringer, as well as large pulse build and classic metamechs Ebons as well are used every day.

Medium pulses were also slated to be cut from six to four, which would effect the 9 med pulse Ebon build and 6 pulse Linebacker.

I run with Evil folks a lot and it isn't dead to them either, even if your first mech is a Mad Cat II, the Hellbringer and Jag's show up in the deck of most of the folks that I know.

There's even a lazor vomit build common on Hellbringers for hot maps.

It seems weird to me you saying this because you and I are generally on the same wavelength, and LVOM is far from dead in CW.

#52 MischiefSC

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 01:24 AM

View PostMcGoat, on 13 May 2018 - 05:34 PM, said:

No no no

12 KCOM Posted Image

The argument you always make is "we", referring to KCOM.

By your logic, and confidence, your team should beat ours trade/trade.

*8v8 works, too


I went back over my posts and the only time I used 'we' was in the following contexts:

"Balance has been broken for all but like 3 months over the last 3 years. We're just used to it."

"What we do know is that when the Clans have faces the same challenges that IS has always faces most of them threw a fit and flounced, so I admit I'm a fan of Clans being the disadvantaged side for a bit."

"If my GHR has 100 health on the CT and your GHR has 120 on the CT, you have a significant, telling advantage because we're doing about the same damage/tic."


"Without question if we had started with better balance we would have a better population today, FW would have gone longer, etc. Now we almost CAN'T fix balance because it triggers a bunch of very vocal people and zomgwtfbbq the game will fail if they have to play on an even field."

"Tharkad was a joke with minimal population/participation but was the closest to an IS win we've seen in 3 years"

As the whole point was not borrowing authority or leaning on anecdotal opinions I was careful to not say 'we' because the math around trading and what mechs are used in comp and why and how comp plays isn't an opinion or the position of some nebulous 'we'. It's math and the years of examples and discussions on the topic.

However if I can get 8 KCom together I'd be fine with that. However, again, you're trying to lean on some anecdotal example. You're also pointing out exactly WHY comp play is a better gauge of balance - if you really wanted to test it get some MWOWC finalists to play it out. That's two teams that are very close in skill with way less variance in each team than you and I can put together. Then again all the comp players have already been faced with this decision; what mechs do they take to trade against people of equal (or even better) skill. They've picked Clan mechs almost universally.

Again, I'm happy to play some trade scrims and see if I can pry some KCom out of Battletech for it.

The crux of this though is that there's no opinion here that matters on this subject. The math and the performance is pretty set. Been shown repeatedly for years. GHR ends up in comp play - absolutely. When there's a slot for a heavy and the relevant Clan mechs have already been picked. Which is going to either be 2x SMN, 2x GYR or 2x LBK. Then probably one or two of the others. But sometimes on some maps the GHR is a good choice. The mech itself is excellent - if the HBR was 5 tons heavier and had the GHRs hitboxes and JJs it would be the Clan laserboat one-and-only.

Edited by MischiefSC, 14 May 2018 - 01:24 AM.


#53 McGoat

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 02:34 AM

Wait, you read all of that.. twice essentially? I didn't even read it once.

Because here again is Mischief talking at length as if he is a SME on something, and surprise he's played some Div E comp matches now and here he is talking about comp.

So I guess I'm an *** for not reading, but I don't care as 90% of your post in some way alludes to your team being so awesome when you're just super GNx.

I like your MWO persona, but balance is not something any one should be proposing until they genuinely understand all sides by application and not watching or theorizing. (Surprise, PGI does the same, except they don't just talk about balance without applying, they execute)

Edited by McGoat, 14 May 2018 - 02:37 AM.


#54 Johnathan Tanner

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:20 AM

View PostMcGoat, on 14 May 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

Wait, you read all of that.. twice essentially? I didn't even read it once.

Because here again is Mischief talking at length as if he is a SME on something, and surprise he's played some Div E comp matches now and here he is talking about comp.

So I guess I'm an *** for not reading, but I don't care as 90% of your post in some way alludes to your team being so awesome when you're just super GNx.

I like your MWO persona, but balance is not something any one should be proposing until they genuinely understand all sides by application and not watching or theorizing. (Surprise, PGI does the same, except they don't just talk about balance without applying, they execute)
Posted ImagePosted Image

I have a feeling this weeks gonna get real interesting. NKVA is back. General discussion is on fire. Few more days like this itll be like phase 2 again.We have a super moon or some ****?

#55 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 03:22 AM

View PostJohnathan Tanner, on 14 May 2018 - 03:20 AM, said:

Posted ImagePosted Image

I have a feeling this weeks gonna get real interesting. NKVA is back. General discussion is on fire. Few more days like this itll be like phase 2 again.We have a super moon or some ****?


Sometimes I wonder if PGI just posts they will make huge and terrible changes to stir everyone up.

Is this PGI all along:
Posted Image

#56 McGoat

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 05:21 AM

View PostMcGoat, on 14 May 2018 - 02:34 AM, said:

Wait, you read all of that.. twice essentially? I didn't even read it once.

Because here again is Mischief talking at length as if he is a SME on something, and surprise he's played some Div E comp matches now and here he is talking about comp.

So I guess I'm an *** for not reading, but I don't care as 90% of your post in some way alludes to your team being so awesome when you're just super GNx.

I like your MWO persona, but balance is not something any one should be proposing until they genuinely understand all sides by application and not watching or theorizing. (Surprise, PGI does the same, except they don't just talk about balance without applying, they execute)



I realize i'm being an ***, but these balance suggestions, proposals, etc almost always stem from such narrow points of view that you could place bets on how the person making a post plays their preferred method mode.

For what it is worth, the good teams still use clan laser vom in almost every match. When Clan side I always have one, or two, in my decks, even on hot maps it'd be 1hll/6erm (-10% heat torso) HBR.

The only way PGI nerf plans would have not broken FW would have been if they also removed IS armor and heat/cool down quirks.

My RGH 3A (65T IS Vom, for comparison to 65T Clan) has 47pt alpha, with IS already shorter duration + ST nodes it is damn near PP vs just about anyone but like skilled players (two RGH, me and Rag, held back 5-6 clan mechs on Forrest last night because an instant 94pts of damage was a major mindfuck) . The HBR with PGI proposed nerf (1hll/4erm) to avoid GH would have been 46 pt alpha* at longer duration vs a mech with clan assault level armor (with l.side armor nodes). Even now - a good player in a RGH is not getting 64 or 60 pt alphas to a single section.

So, in my opinion, having played nearly all play styles (I dropped with KCOM for two months straight last year before I got tired of LBK/Onion rushing), the only way this would bring balance would be to simultaneously debuff IS armor and cooldown values - which would have broken the forums if both those came at once.

*But no one would use that, it'd go back to 2lpl/4erm for 52pt alpha which again is not enough to warrant IS quirks.

Edited by McGoat, 14 May 2018 - 05:28 AM.


#57 Tesunie

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:01 AM

I do believe that each side (comp and non-comp) make legitimate points.

Very little of this game is comp level play. FW tends to be and play different from QP or comp matches. This doesn't mean that data from comp is irrelevant, but then again it's not completely going to be true (as in, relationship to the subject). As with most things, the real truth of it always seems to rest somewhere in the middle.

I mean, if we balanced strictly by comp play, we'd have much deadlier LRMs (for an example), because you never see them in comp play. In order for them to be seen there they would need some serious changes. Many of those changes though would destroy other aspects and levels of this game, such as T5 (where LRMs are more prevalent, but also use very poorly).

In relation (to steer away from LRMs, as that isn't this thread's subject at all), even if HLL and ERML boating isn't a thing in comp play doesn't mean it might not be an issue in other aspects and parts of this game. I know for many it's the go to weapon groupings for many of their mechs. Even I have a lot of Clan mechs that utilize this combination of weapons (right on down to a dual HLL and six ERML Marauder IIC, as well as a Huntsmen with twin HLL, dual ERMLs and an LRM10). If it's a "good to" "sure thing" combo, then maybe it could use some kind of adjustment...?

Now, I'm not saying if this is a "too powerful" combination of weapons, especially compared to IS counterparts (which for me is mixing LLs and ERMLs together for a reasonable punch), but there is always the possibility (as I don't have access to all the data, obviously) that it may be too saturated and too useful (compared to other weapon combos) in other areas and levels of play (outside comp play).



I find to directly balance opinions strictly at comp play is like saying a player can't get good results on X build because their global stats don't "meet the requirements" (but in this case, it's a reverse argument to what is being brought here). Comp play is great to gather data and maybe find some issues within the game that could be able to be "abused" (I use this term very loosely), but it also should never be the "be all and end all" of all data gathering. It's just one aspect to look at.

In this case, look at QP data as well, with FP data and see if a build/mech/weapon/weapon-combo is being too prevalent or powerful, and adjust accordingly. For this specific case, it seems like that weapon combo is not used in comp play, so that just means there are probably other, more efficient for their level of play, options available. In counter point though, I (as a T1 player for solo and someone who drops in GP as well) see HLL and ERML mixed builds fairly often from Clan mechs. I see it a lot in FP when I do play it.

As I believe I noted at some point in this thread (and I do think it's worth mentioning again, if for nothing more than to think about it), what if this change ended up being something with a goal to reduce quirks (of particular note, IS health quirks) and be an attempt to try and lead to better overall game play? (No, I don't necessarily agree with the changes, just saying.)

If something is slated to try and balance C vs IS in a manner than can remove the health quirks on most mechs, I personally would be willing to give it a try. Even though I don't believe GH is the way to do it, but GH has curbed a lot of overly powerful weapon combos, so it is doing it's job rather we like it or not.

#58 K O Z A K

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:02 AM

a day will come when people will stop using canyon network 8v8 balance to make arguments for vitric forge 48v48 balance.....but it is not this day *sigh*

#59 Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:44 AM

View PostHazeclaw, on 14 May 2018 - 07:02 AM, said:

a day will come when people will stop using canyon network 8v8 balance to make arguments for vitric forge 48v48 balance.....but it is not this day *sigh*


This.

Comp matches are about as relevant as the price of tea in China when it comes to faction play balance.

8v8 vs of 12v12 over 4 waves
mix tech vs pure tech
purely highly coordinated teams vs mix of pugs, bad teams, good teams, and great teams
polar highlands/canyon network/tourmaline desert (only maps in finals) vs much larger map pool that includes siege maps
conquest only vs various gamemodes
generally static gameplay catering to poptarts vs highly push focused steamroll gameplay

That's just off the top of my head.

#60 McGoat

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Posted 14 May 2018 - 07:46 AM

View PostJohnathan Tanner, on 14 May 2018 - 03:20 AM, said:



View PostChampion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 14 May 2018 - 03:22 AM, said:




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