171 replies to this topic

[Koniving]

Vonbach, on 12 May 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Great IS back to being target practice again. Clans need their training wheels.

Yep. Clans can't operate without their chicken hats.

Currently Clans can do 78 damage with 6 ER ML and 2 Heavy LL without ghost heat or shutting down. All this at only 14 tons.
Closest thing IS has without triggering ghost heat is 60 with 6 ER ML and 3 LPL all at 27 tons. Not to mention nearly twice the range for the Clans.

Post nerf it'd be 59 damage Clan to 60 damage IS without hitting ghost heat at 16 tons to 27 tons and even better range.
Or risking a measily 3.7 extra ghost heat on top of a minor bit for an extra ER ML the Clans could net 66 damage for what would effectively be 60% heat on a 15 DHS build with no skill tree. Meanwhile the IS would get hit with (and currently do) 7.06 extra heat just to bring that IS 60 damage to 65, post patch... so the Clans STILL win the laser vomit war post nerf. But it would've been a lot more fair.

[SFC174]

Bombast, on 12 May 2018 - 01:24 PM, said:

Consumers complained and the product was changed (Or rather not changed). If only most gaming companies could be persuaded in this way.

Actually curious if financial reasons helped push this. I know several people who not only canceled preoders, but made it clear in their support emails exactly why.

Yep, add me to that list. Cancelled my Hellfire pre-order with the explanation of "Now that there has been a mega-nerf of Clan lasers I see no point in purchasing this mech"

Maybe it got through, maybe Russ pulled back for other reasons. Regardless, we can work on a more appropriate solution now.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Vonbach, on 12 May 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Great IS back to being target practice again. Clans need their training wheels.

Hmm this is a weird thing to say. I mean they just said they WEREN'T going to implement the changes which would imply that things are changing. That being the case, how does this make us go BACK to IS being target practice? Balance seems pretty good to me right now with it kind of sorta running a little toward IS bais in quite a few areas if you ask me, at least that is how it feels when I am playing my IS mechs.

[MechaBattler]

Koniving, on 12 May 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yep. Clans can't operate without their chicken hats.

Currently Clans can do 78 damage with 6 ER ML and 2 Heavy LL without ghost heat or shutting down. All this at only 14 tons.
Closest thing IS has without triggering ghost heat is 60 with 6 ER ML and 3 LPL all at 27 tons. Not to mention nearly twice the range for the Clans.

Post nerf it'd be 59 damage Clan to 60 damage IS without hitting ghost heat at 16 tons to 27 tons and even better range.
Or risking a measily 3.7 extra ghost heat on top of a minor bit for an extra ER ML the Clans could net 66 damage for what would effectively be 60% heat on a 15 DHS build with no skill tree. Meanwhile the IS would get hit with (and currently do) 7.06 extra heat just to bring that IS 60 damage to 65, post patch... so the Clans STILL win the laser vomit war post nerf. But it would've been a lot more fair.

Can we just copy paste this everywhere? Because I feel like most people are just complaining because their favorite thing got nerfed. Without really thinking it through.

[CK16]

You guys forget about that the IS is almost half the duration of their Clan counterparts? THAT is a big issue if you nerf us to UNDER the IS Alpha...

Edited by CK16, 12 May 2018 - 03:52 PM.

[SFC174]

Koniving, on 12 May 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yep. Clans can't operate without their chicken hats.

Currently Clans can do 78 damage with 6 ER ML and 2 Heavy LL without ghost heat or shutting down. All this at only 14 tons.
Closest thing IS has without triggering ghost heat is 60 with 6 ER ML and 3 LPL all at 27 tons. Not to mention nearly twice the range for the Clans.

Post nerf it'd be 59 damage Clan to 60 damage IS without hitting ghost heat at 16 tons to 27 tons and even better range.
Or risking a measily 3.7 extra ghost heat on top of a minor bit for an extra ER ML the Clans could net 66 damage for what would effectively be 60% heat on a 15 DHS build with no skill tree. Meanwhile the IS would get hit with (and currently do) 7.06 extra heat just to bring that IS 60 damage to 65, post patch... so the Clans STILL win the laser vomit war post nerf. But it would've been a lot more fair.

My favorite IS laservomit is 6 ERML and 3 LL (I also run 2 LL and 5 ERML on a HBK-4P). 57 pt alpha for 21 tons. Sounds inferior to the Clan no? But when you look into it, not so much.

First, the ranges are much closer. On average the Clan has about a 10% range advantage. But most of your IS laser boats have a 5-10% range quirk anyways. That's a wash.

Duration wise, the IS lasers win out. Also on cooldown. With a typical cooldown and/or duration quirk on IS laser boats, the IS mech will fire its 27 pt LL strike almost twice for every 36 pt C-HLL strike from the Clan mech. That's 54 pts for 42 heat vs. 36 pts for 32 heat in the same time frame. The IS ERML fires about 20% faster than the Clan version before quirks which helps offset its dmg deficit.

Yes, the Clans have better heatsinks and use only 2/3 the weight. But the IS can dish out more dmg over time, is more heat efficient and gets a lot of quirks to offset some of the other deficits. I thought that prior to this nerf fiasco, things were pretty decent, with the Clans only needing some minor dmg reductions to limit alphas, and maybe a little heat or cooldown reduction to compensate for the reduced dmg.

[Vxheous]

Koniving, on 12 May 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Post nerf it'd be 59 damage Clan to 60 damage IS without hitting ghost heat at 16 tons to 27 tons and even better range.

Post nerf would have been 52 damage Clan to 60 damage IS.

Max combo post nerf (now rolled back):
1. 2 CLPL + 4CERML = 52 damage
2. 2 CERLL + 4CERML = 50 damage
3. 1 CHLL + 4CERML = 46 damage.

You read the patch notes wrong and thought that you can run 2CPL + 5CERML but 5CERML is where ghost heat already kicks in. Had PGI dropped the threshold for ghost heat on CERML by only 1 (allowing 5 CERML to alpha), that might have been ok. Dropping the threshold by 2 is really large drop, along with the CHLL single laser ghost heat threshold.

Edited by Vxheous, 12 May 2018 - 04:11 PM.

[Azure Kit]

CK16, on 12 May 2018 - 03:52 PM, said:

You guys forget about that the IS is almost half the duration of their Clan counterparts? THAT is a big issue if you nerf us to UNDER the IS Alpha...

And all that extra structure to chew through on top of that..

[frumpylumps]

delaying some of your lasers .5 for a bigger burst of damage was apparently just too much for clan babies.

Edited by frumpylumps, 12 May 2018 - 04:22 PM.

[Vxheous]

frumpylumps, on 12 May 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

delaying some of your lasers .5 for a bigger alpha was apparently just too much for the clan babies.

No because clan laser burns are already long enough as is. An additional .5 second delay puts exposure time over 2 seconds, beyond long enough time for your opponent to have already ducked into cover. Those that prefer to play high alpha laser vomit would have just switched to playing IS laser vomit, and those that currently get rekted by clan laser vomit would have still got rekted by IS laser vomit. All the patch would have done is swapped which mechs become laser vomit dominant mechs.

[Alexander of Macedon]

Vonbach, on 12 May 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Great IS back to being target practice again. Clans need their training wheels.

You're off your rocker. Clan laservom has been on the downswing for a long while. Even if you hold a perfect burn with cERMLas/cHLLas the duration is so long that a little torso twisting will still spread it all over.

In particular the increased crit slot consumption of heavy medium/larges is a really nice balancing factor, since it hits omnis where it hurts. 4 slots for a cHLLas as opposed to 1 for a cERLLas means that they get 1.5 fewer DHS per laser, and 0.5 fewer per cHMLas they take instead of cERMLas. Heavy las having ranges comparable to IS lasers is good as well, it means that they don't just get an extra 100-200m of effective range on top of the higher damage/longer duration tradeoff.

I'd suggest actually playing it some. I have, and it feels about even with what I'm doing with IS MLas and ERLLas (relative to weapon tonnage). Admittedly, part of that is probably because LPLas on both sides are garbage now, and because cERMLas are trash, given that those two were the biggest offenders.

Admittedly, still not even in the peculiar environment of FP, but much better than it used to be.

[Xetelian]

Koniving, on 12 May 2018 - 03:40 PM, said:

Yep. Clans can't operate without their chicken hats.

Currently Clans can do 78 damage with 6 ER ML and 2 Heavy LL without ghost heat or shutting down. All this at only 14 tons.
Closest thing IS has without triggering ghost heat is 60 with 6 ER ML and 3 LPL all at 27 tons. Not to mention nearly twice the range for the Clans.

Post nerf it'd be 59 damage Clan to 60 damage IS without hitting ghost heat at 16 tons to 27 tons and even better range.
Or risking a measily 3.7 extra ghost heat on top of a minor bit for an extra ER ML the Clans could net 66 damage for what would effectively be 60% heat on a 15 DHS build with no skill tree. Meanwhile the IS would get hit with (and currently do) 7.06 extra heat just to bring that IS 60 damage to 65, post patch... so the Clans STILL win the laser vomit war post nerf. But it would've been a lot more fair.

66 with 6 MPL and 3 LPL

Can do that on a BL 6B KNT https://mwo.smurfy-n...6c90956e0831193

[eminus]

when patch was announced

- I sold my Supernova and bought Anni 2A

after that they canned the lazor nerf and nerf Anni 2A

this is lesson learned! LOL

[Christophe Ivanov]

To Russ and PGI,
Just want to say if you really want to keep Nerfing and Buffing things, Then please seriously consider letting the player base TEST THESE in the Public Test version. Monitor that and let us give you the feed back and let's test it for like 4 to 6 weeks worth of data collection. I am VERY sure this will give you valuable data from both the game and player feedback.
I play Freespace 2 series of games that date back to Mechwarrior prime time. We test the crap outta the system and always always give feed back to the community.

Afterall, we WANT to be on your side in this and not just be paying players. Give it a try.

[Snowbluff]

Ugh, ******* no. Nerf the ******* lasers NOW. Deal with the consequences later. I want this done as quickly and painlessly as possible.

[FireStoat]

MechaBattler, on 12 May 2018 - 03:50 PM, said:

Can we just copy paste this everywhere? Because I feel like most people are just complaining because their favorite thing got nerfed. Without really thinking it through.

An Purifier kitfox loads up on a whopping 6 Er medium lasers and makes an attempt to be dangerous. Or a Linebacker slaps on 6 medium pulse due to having to work with what tonnage they have to go after a playstyle that will suit the mech's strengths. Or maybe a poor Ice Ferret is simply putting on some Heavy mediums, or a Shadow Cat is daring to put on two Heavy Larges simply because options are low, but some semblance of performance is wanted.

21 total chassis variants stock in the game for clan would have entered into ghost heat range in addition to the simple examples I listed above, all in the name of nerfing the Hellbringer's laser vomit alpha. No, people weren't really complaining about their favorite thing being nerfed. They were pointing out that the person in charge of balance really didn't think through the impact of the change. Paint it differently though if it makes you feel better.

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Mortalcoil, on 12 May 2018 - 12:53 PM, said:

Good job guys. We cried until we got our way. This is an important life lesson.

Yeah, don't let stupid decisions pass by without a word. Bad things happen because of good people not stepping up. If you're on a ship and the captain's driving right into an iceberg, maybe someone should tell him to change course.

Did you want the game to die?

[D34DMetal]

SFC174, on 12 May 2018 - 03:54 PM, said:

My favorite IS laservomit is 6 ERML and 3 LL (I also run 2 LL and 5 ERML on a HBK-4P). 57 pt alpha for 21 tons. Sounds inferior to the Clan no? But when you look into it, not so much.

First, the ranges are much closer. On average the Clan has about a 10% range advantage. But most of your IS laser boats have a 5-10% range quirk anyways. That's a wash.

Duration wise, the IS lasers win out. Also on cooldown. With a typical cooldown and/or duration quirk on IS laser boats, the IS mech will fire its 27 pt LL strike almost twice for every 36 pt C-HLL strike from the Clan mech. That's 54 pts for 42 heat vs. 36 pts for 32 heat in the same time frame. The IS ERML fires about 20% faster than the Clan version before quirks which helps offset its dmg deficit.

Yes, the Clans have better heatsinks and use only 2/3 the weight. But the IS can dish out more dmg over time, is more heat efficient and gets a lot of quirks to offset some of the other deficits. I thought that prior to this nerf fiasco, things were pretty decent, with the Clans only needing some minor dmg reductions to limit alphas, and maybe a little heat or cooldown reduction to compensate for the reduced dmg.

QFE

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Xetelian, on 12 May 2018 - 06:03 PM, said:

66 with 6 MPL and 3 LPL

Can do that on a BL 6B KNT https://mwo.smurfy-n...6c90956e0831193

Generally we try to keep the ranges close, MPL has much shorter range than the ERMLs, though its well known that close range IS laser vomit is incredibly powerful. 66 damage in 0.67 duration is 98.5 damage per tick compared to the Clan laser vomit that is generally in the low 40s. Though its not super practical because of combining high heat, low cooling, and short range. A full MPL build does get around those issues and become an incredible laser brawler though.

frumpylumps, on 12 May 2018 - 04:19 PM, said:

delaying some of your lasers .5 for a bigger burst of damage was apparently just too much for clan babies.

People saying stuff like this clearly have no idea what they're talking about when it comes to laser balance. These are the kind of guys who see big spooky firepower numbers and demand it be nerfed even if it already has a load of things balancing it out. Its not 78 damage PPFLD, its 78 damage already over the course of 1.55 seconds, adding another half a second to that means you're pretty much holding your lightsaber on the enemy for over 2 seconds straight.

At that point lasers are 100% useless, a UAC5 can fire, cooldown, and fire again all in the duration of you firing one laser. By the time an IS mech finishes shooting his duration at you you've only got half of your damage on him, meaning that 78 damage alpha is only 39 compared to the 57+ one the IS mech just threw at you.

Not to mention that the change demands that all Clan players use macros just so they can fire their lasers in perfect 0.5 stagger or be even more useless than that.

[MechaBattler]

FireStoat, on 12 May 2018 - 06:55 PM, said:

An Purifier kitfox loads up on a whopping 6 Er medium lasers and makes an attempt to be dangerous. Or a Linebacker slaps on 6 medium pulse due to having to work with what tonnage they have to go after a playstyle that will suit the mech's strengths. Or maybe a poor Ice Ferret is simply putting on some Heavy mediums, or a Shadow Cat is daring to put on two Heavy Larges simply because options are low, but some semblance of performance is wanted.

21 total chassis variants stock in the game for clan would have entered into ghost heat range in addition to the simple examples I listed above, all in the name of nerfing the Hellbringer's laser vomit alpha. No, people weren't really complaining about their favorite thing being nerfed. They were pointing out that the person in charge of balance really didn't think through the impact of the change. Paint it differently though if it makes you feel better.

I think you can still make viable builds with those mechs. And I think Chris knows that.