177 replies to this topic

[Prototelis]

Bush Hopper, on 07 June 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:

Are you kidding? There are MANY more lights in QP boating lasers than MGs - this holds true simply because of the hardpoints

The next most common are the MG mechs.

However, when have you seen lights boating SRMS or MRMs? I have very very scarcely. Which is a shame.

no?

The three most popular lights in order right now;

6mg cheetah/8mg mystlynx
PIR-1 (will be higher come cbill day)
Laser lights built specifically to counter the first three (especially the PIR)

Edited by Prototelis, 07 June 2018 - 05:19 AM.

[KoalaBrownie]

YueFei, on 06 June 2018 - 10:54 PM, said:

You're not losing that match-up because of worse damage/heat ratio. There's other reasons you're getting beat, and you have to examine it more carefully to understand why and how you're getting beat, if you want to overcome it. Most likely your opponent is aiming better than you, or positioning better than you, or your timing is off, or some combination of those things.

Nope, I'm losing those match-ups because the opponents get huge buffs in armor and structure and use weapons that don't have ghost heat like small lasers. SRM spread is also irrelevant if it's some light mech humping your leg. Meanwhile light mechs often have big armor or structure bonuses, allowing them survive much more punishment than they should be able to while being so fast as to be hard to hit.

In one match I hit a Locust square in the rear CT with an AC/20 and it didn't die even though in tabletop it would be dead twice over, probably was a 3V with +15 structure. Other light mechs, hit them with 5 or more AC/20s before they go down because many have +10 or +15 structure nearly across the board (Commando).

And as for Lasers, mechs mounting lasers will have more heat sinks which means they'll have higher shutdown thresholds. Fast medium and light mechs will have more heat sinks in the engine, giving them more efficiency.

Yeonne Greene, on 07 June 2018 - 04:36 AM, said:

Nope. AC/5 fires once every 10 seconds in TT. In MWO, it fires once every 1.66 seconds. 10 over 1.66 is 6.02, AKA 6.02x the TT rate.

Doesn't matter. Even with that it should still take a full 50 seconds of continuous firing for my mech to shutdown and that certainly is not the case, instead it takes about 22 seconds. Mech has a -22% cooldown but that shouldn't equate to shutting down in half the time.

[CocoaJin]

I don’t see the problem. I just came back this past week after being gone like 2 yrs. Didnt know about the new skill tree, ran several matches with no skill enhancements. I had no problem peeking or staying mobile. Added skills, saw the improvement and found it only made me more lethal.

I ran everything from lights to assaults, never felt significantly vulnerable due to lack of mobility. I still prefer ballistics as a primary build, lasers still suck except for painting damage on fast movers or burning a hole in a stationary, lump on a log mech.

Edited by CocoaJin, 07 June 2018 - 07:32 PM.

[YueFei]

KoalaBrownie, on 07 June 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

Nope, I'm losing those match-ups because the opponents get huge buffs in armor and structure and use weapons that don't have ghost heat like small lasers. SRM spread is also irrelevant if it's some light mech humping your leg. Meanwhile light mechs often have big armor or structure bonuses, allowing them survive much more punishment than they should be able to while being so fast as to be hard to hit.

The small family of lasers is one of the weakest in the game, if you're losing to that (and losing to point-blank SRM), you are probably failing to use your range advantage. With 4xAC5, you should be able to pull a leg in 2 to 3 hits, and even at 25% accuracy you should have it in 20 seconds.

Quote

In one match I hit a Locust square in the rear CT with an AC/20 and it didn't die even though in tabletop it would be dead twice over, probably was a 3V with +15 structure. Other light mechs, hit them with 5 or more AC/20s before they go down because many have +10 or +15 structure nearly across the board (Commando).

You shouldn't expect to splatter a light in one AC/20 shot. Light mech play is risky as it is, they have to have some chance of bailing out when opened up, rather than just instantly dying. Even as it is now, Light mechs are the weakest performing weight class in the game.

When I'm on top of my game, I can pull a leg off a short-range brawling Light mech in two salvos. When I fail to do so, I can only blame myself.

Even if I'm missing half of my shots, that leg still comes off in 12 seconds. If I'm missing more often than that, well.... at the end of the day, this game is a shooter, so the onus is on the player behind the controls to actually hit what they're aiming at.

Quote

And as for Lasers, mechs mounting lasers will have more heat sinks which means they'll have higher shutdown thresholds. Fast medium and light mechs will have more heat sinks in the engine, giving them more efficiency.

Laser boats typically only have the ability to salvo 2 or 3 times before they're riding the threshold. In the 22 seconds that you can keep the trigger down, you should be pulling ahead on damage. Unless you just aren't hitting your shots... your superior damage-per-heat is theoretical, and your effective damage-per-heat depends on your accuracy.

And of course, if you're just trading in sharp engagements you'll be losing regardless of the heat situation because each time they're hitting you for more damage than you're hitting them back with, and able to cool off behind cover.

If you can force a sustained engagement on your opponent, you still need to be keen to shoulder-roll off his initial front-loaded damage, so that you can survive long enough to actually pull ahead on damage.

Quote

Doesn't matter. Even with that it should still take a full 50 seconds of continuous firing for my mech to shutdown and that certainly is not the case, instead it takes about 22 seconds. Mech has a -22% cooldown but that shouldn't equate to shutting down in half the time.

22 seconds is enough for you to dish out 260+ damage before overheat.

In contrast, the HBK-4SP I used to drive most of the time would overheat after dishing out just 100 damage. Granted, it was 100 damage in about 5 seconds, but as I said, if you maneuver defensively to survive the initial front-loaded damage, you can pull ahead once your opponent is heat-capped.

[Xetelian]

Ammo per ton is a small buff but it'll help.

[KoalaBrownie]

YueFei, on 08 June 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:

The small family of lasers is one of the weakest in the game, if you're losing to that (and losing to point-blank SRM), you are probably failing to use your range advantage. With 4xAC5, you should be able to pull a leg in 2 to 3 hits, and even at 25% accuracy you should have it in 20 seconds.

A - You pick your mech before you pick the map
B - Most maps don't allow for 10 seconds of firing before the light is literally under your guns, let alone 20 seconds.

YueFei, on 08 June 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:

You shouldn't expect to splatter a light in one AC/20 shot. Light mech play is risky as it is, they have to have some chance of bailing out when opened up, rather than just instantly dying. Even as it is now, Light mechs are the weakest performing weight class in the game.

You should expect to splatter a light because this game is based on Battletech and that's what happens. Especially when it's an AC/20 shot to REAR torso. In tabletop, a Locust will die to a Larger Laser hit there let alone an AC/20. A single AC/20 shot to the front of most light mechs will destroy any location and possibly two.

The problem with this game is the same problem that the boardgame has, every game is just about shooting the other guy. The only game mode where Lights actually have a proper role is conquest. And because every match is just shooting, most of the light mechs in the game have been given buffs to turn them into mediums while assaults and so forth get penalized with ghost heat, poor heat dissipation and so on to bring them down. Big generic shoot-out for the most part with little else to do.

YueFei, on 08 June 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:

When I'm on top of my game, I can pull a leg off a short-range brawling Light mech in two salvos. When I fail to do so, I can only blame myself.

Even if I'm missing half of my shots, that leg still comes off in 12 seconds. If I'm missing more often than that, well.... at the end of the day, this game is a shooter, so the onus is on the player behind the controls to actually hit what they're aiming at.

When a Jenner takes 6 or 7 AC/20 rounds to kill it's not about me hitting the guy, it's about me not shutting down because my mech has poorer dissipation than it ought to. It's also about him getting buffed out the wazoo.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 08 June 2018 - 01:52 PM.

[Xetelian]

KoalaBrownie, on 08 June 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

When a Jenner takes 6 or 7 AC/20 rounds to kill it's not about me hitting the guy, it's about me not shutting down because my mech has poorer dissipation than it ought to. It's also about him getting buffed out the wazoo.

JR7 is not going to take 6 AC20 shots to kill if you know how to aim, if you hit 2 legs, 2 arms 2 ST it has nothing to do with it "getting buffed out the wazoo".

Lights go down in very little time if you can get all your damage into one component, a lot of time in one hit from anything that isn't the average light.

[YueFei]

KoalaBrownie, on 08 June 2018 - 01:22 PM, said:

A - You pick your mech before you pick the map
B - Most maps don't allow for 10 seconds of firing before the light is literally under your guns, let alone 20 seconds.

If you can't see a Light coming in time to lay fire on it before it's right on top of you, then either you are positioning badly, or you are being suppressed and herded into tight cover (thus cutting off your sight lines). If it's the latter (you are suppressed by the other team's big guns), then that's teamwork that's beating you, not the Light mech alone.

This is a common problem with a lot of players. They don't position themselves in a place where they can get a commanding view of the map, because they're too busy hiding/cowering from the enemy. Even if you only spot a Light mech coming from 200 meters away (basically starting at brawl range), you still have enough time to squeeze off 4 shots before he's at point-blank range. At 50% accuracy you'll have nearly pulled a leg off.

Watch a stream where a good player shows how he deals with enemy Light mechs.

BTW, if you're in a Rifleman, there's no way a Light mech can get under your guns [re

Quote

You should expect to splatter a light because this game is based on Battletech and that's what happens. Especially when it's an AC/20 shot to REAR torso. In tabletop, a Locust will die to a Larger Laser hit there let alone an AC/20. A single AC/20 shot to the front of most light mechs will destroy any location and possibly two.

The problem with this game is the same problem that the boardgame has, every game is just about shooting the other guy. The only game mode where Lights actually have a proper role is conquest. And because every match is just shooting, most of the light mechs in the game have been given buffs to turn them into mediums while assaults and so forth get penalized with ghost heat, poor heat dissipation and so on to bring them down. Big generic shoot-out for the most part with little else to do.

The doubled-armor and doubled-structure works in your favor as well, not just for Light mechs, making you harder to kill. This reinforces Mechwarrior Online as a shooter that is distinguished from other games in that TTK is significantly higher.

Also, [redacted] the Locust is hilarious considering how badly undergunned that mech is. The structure quirk is there to help out a rather weak and underperforming mech. If it were overpowered and unfair (as you are trying to imply), why doesn't that mech see serious use in competitions?

It's not like that Locust would've been a serious threat to you, what with 2 energy hardpoints and a couple machine guns.

Quote

When a Jenner takes 6 or 7 AC/20 rounds to kill it's not about me hitting the guy, it's about me not shutting down because my mech has poorer dissipation than it ought to. It's also about him getting buffed out the wazoo.

You ought to be able to pull a leg off the Jenner with 2 AC/20 hits and some change (missiles/lasers). Again, at 50% accuracy, that's a done deal in 12 seconds, after spending about 24 heat.

[redacted]

Edited by Tina Benoit, 20 June 2018 - 02:38 PM.
Insults

[Besh]

KoalaBrownie, on 07 June 2018 - 03:18 PM, said:

Nope, I'm losing those match-ups because the opponents get huge buffs in armor and structure and use weapons that don't have ghost heat like small lasers. SRM spread is also irrelevant if it's some light mech humping your leg. Meanwhile light mechs often have big armor or structure bonuses, allowing them survive much more punishment than they should be able to while being so fast as to be hard to hit.

In one match I hit a Locust square in the rear CT with an AC/20 and it didn't die even though in tabletop it would be dead twice over, probably was a 3V with +15 structure. Other light mechs, hit them with 5 or more AC/20s before they go down because many have +10 or +15 structure nearly across the board (Commando).

And as for Lasers, mechs mounting lasers will have more heat sinks which means they'll have higher shutdown thresholds. Fast medium and light mechs will have more heat sinks in the engine, giving them more efficiency.




Doesn't matter. Even with that it should still take a full 50 seconds of continuous firing for my mech to shutdown and that certainly is not the case, instead it takes about 22 seconds. Mech has a -22% cooldown but that shouldn't equate to shutting down in half the time.

This and the other Posts re. Lights of yours invite the old standard reply :

Pilot a Jenner, then a Locust exclusively for at least 50 Matches . Take notice of how you do . Then come back and tell us how OP they are .

[Cloves]

Besh, on 09 June 2018 - 12:44 AM, said:

This and the other Posts re. Lights of yours invite the old standard reply :

Pilot a Jenner, then a Locust exclusively for at least 50 Matches . Take notice of how you do . Then come back and tell us how OP they are .

Today is the last day you can buy the best locust for under a million cbills. NO EXCUSES.

[KoalaBrownie]

Xetelian, on 08 June 2018 - 09:40 PM, said:

JR7 is not going to take 6 AC20 shots to kill if you know how to aim, if you hit 2 legs, 2 arms 2 ST it has nothing to do with it "getting buffed out the wazoo".

Lights go down in very little time if you can get all your damage into one component, a lot of time in one hit from anything that isn't the average light.

If I hit 2 ST, 2 Arms and 2 Legs it should be a stump of a body with two very critical legs because hitting both the arm and side torso will guarantee the side torso is destroyed in tabletop unless it's a max armour jenner rocking 0-1 armour on the rear side torso.

Since that was NOT the case, it's buffed compared to tabletop.

YueFei, on 09 June 2018 - 12:01 AM, said:

You have a chance to grab hold of your own weaknesses and overcome them, but you blame everything else except yourself. Forget about MWO for a moment -- that's a terrible attitude to take with you into life. It's a mentality where you make yourself a helpless victim in your mind.

Pilot skill is irrelevant in a discussion of game balance and mechanics because match making pairs pilots of equal skill together, the skill to hit on my end and the skill to evade on theirs.

If you cannot discuss the game and the game alone then remove yourself from the conversation.

Besh, on 09 June 2018 - 12:44 AM, said:

This and the other Posts re. Lights of yours invite the old standard reply :

Pilot a Jenner, then a Locust exclusively for at least 50 Matches . Take notice of how you do . Then come back and tell us how OP they are .

Never claimed they were overpowered so please- stick to the ACTUAL discussion, not the one you pretend it to be.

Edited by KoalaBrownie, 11 June 2018 - 08:22 PM.

[Xetelian]

KoalaBrownie, on 11 June 2018 - 08:12 PM, said:

If I hit 2 ST, 2 Arms and 2 Legs it should be a stump of a body with two very critical legs because hitting both the arm and side torso will guarantee the side torso is destroyed in tabletop unless it's a max armour jenner rocking 0-1 armour on the rear side torso.

Since that was NOT the case, it's buffed compared to tabletop.

Yes, armor was doubled (for you as well), structure is high, fire rate is super fast, ammo was upped, the heat scale is massive with no drawbacks before shutdown and the cool down is pretty quick. If you can't manage to land two hits on one leg then stick with your team so they can all put one shot on the JR7 each.

Also, you don't have to take turns against each other, very different from table top. If you want to play Table Top, go play with your action figures and dice.

[KoalaBrownie]

Xetelian, on 12 June 2018 - 12:44 AM, said:

Yes, armor was doubled (for you as well), structure is high, fire rate is super fast, ammo was upped, the heat scale is massive with no drawbacks before shutdown and the cool down is pretty quick. If you can't manage to land two hits on one leg then stick with your team so they can all put one shot on the JR7 each.

Wow dude you can't even get basics right, huh?

Jenner:
Leg Structure 16
Armour Max 32
Damage from an AC/20: 20

16 structure + 32 armour = 48 total. 48/20 = 2.4 which for those of you following at home, is MORE than 2.

And since ghost heat from firing 2 AC/20s at the same time is DOUBLE the fricken heat, you're going to be firing those 1 by 1 at fast moving target that probably outstrips your torso rotation speed at close range which means he'll get off multiple volleys of lasers or SRMs at your legs. SRM-6 by the way doing 60% dps of an AC/20 at the same range for 22% of the weight.

And what else, armour + structure is double (200%), AC/20 damage is the same (100%), AC/20 ammo is 140% of normal but effectively 70% compared to tabletop. So that's nerfed. Heat is marginally less 84%, but again, double firing means the heat is effectively 170% of normal. And yeah, double firing ghost is supposed to be a balance thing but uh - - Heavy Gauss Rifle anyone?

No actuator criticals favours lighter/faster mechs
No heat scale effects before shutdown favours lighter/faster mechs
Damage from shutdown seems to be percentage based, which favours lighter mechs.

There's a whole ton of buffs for light mechs in this game, even if they're still trash according to most players.

Xetelian, on 12 June 2018 - 12:44 AM, said:

Also, you don't have to take turns against each other, very different from table top. If you want to play Table Top, go play with your action figures and dice.

Until the IP is in the hands of a competent company I wouldn't touch tabletop again.
That said this game diverges more and more from tabletop pretty much every update from what I can tell.

[Xetelian]

KoalaBrownie, on 12 June 2018 - 02:52 PM, said:

Wow dude you can't even get basics right, huh?

Jenner:
Leg Structure 16
Armour Max 32
Damage from an AC/20: 20

16 structure + 32 armour = 48 total. 48/20 = 2.4 which for those of you following at home, is MORE than 2.

And since ghost heat from firing 2 AC/20s at the same time is DOUBLE the fricken heat, you're going to be firing those 1 by 1 at fast moving target that probably outstrips your torso rotation speed at close range which means he'll get off multiple volleys of lasers or SRMs at your legs. SRM-6 by the way doing 60% dps of an AC/20 at the same range for 22% of the weight.

And what else, armour + structure is double (200%), AC/20 damage is the same (100%), AC/20 ammo is 140% of normal but effectively 70% compared to tabletop. So that's nerfed. Heat is marginally less 84%, but again, double firing means the heat is effectively 170% of normal. And yeah, double firing ghost is supposed to be a balance thing but uh - - Heavy Gauss Rifle anyone?

No actuator criticals favours lighter/faster mechs
No heat scale effects before shutdown favours lighter/faster mechs
Damage from shutdown seems to be percentage based, which favours lighter mechs.

There's a whole ton of buffs for light mechs in this game, even if they're still trash according to most players.



Until the IP is in the hands of a competent company I wouldn't touch tabletop again.
That said this game diverges more and more from tabletop pretty much every update from what I can tell.

Your lights are OP idea falls on deaf ears.

32 armor and 16 structure on a JR7 while an ANH gets 84 armor BEFORE quirks+skill tree which brings it to about 100.

So the light mech can and will hit your legs, and the DPS of the spread damage of an SRM6 will eventually take the armor off your leg, but if you are facing a JR7 while in an ANH and it takes both your legs off, does almost 200 damage to you and you didn't hit it with 2 AC20 shots, who is weak in this scenario?


I take the legs out from under lights all the time. I pilot lights seldom and when I do I don't have the easiest time because I'm so used to assaults that my play style doesn't shift very well towards faster sneaky fighters.


The only time a light is really a threat to me is when I'm caught out alone.


Hit that leg with DHGR and it'll come off.


You seemed to have missed the fact that you have 42 HP on an ANH leg AFTER armor. So taking both the legs off of a big mech is going to take enough time for you to at least leg them.


And that SRM6 is spread, so some of it isn't hitting the leg they're aiming at. An AC20 or HGR round hits one spot for all of its damage.

[Y E O N N E]

Double-legging an Assault us a poor use of ammunition in a Light. Spending 50% of your supply to kill one target? GG.

[The Mysterious Fox]

seeing dual heavy guass medium laser vomit annihilators everywhere now, better nerf clans.

[Khobai]

id like to see dual heavy gauss get ghost heat. i dont think we need to prevent people from using it, just make it cost extra heat. if you want high PPFLD you should have to pay heat for it.

and also buff heavy gauss by A LOT so its much better as a singleton weapon

[Battlemaster56]

Let's leave Dual HGR builds alone there not many mechs can do it or have the extra armor and structure to just bring it to full bear on the field and one the only builds that can match clan gauss vomit in it's unique way.

Plus adding more GH in the game is just bad you just end up opening the skill gap and limiting game customization every time we add more GH.