177 replies to this topic

[Xetelian]

The rise of lasers didn't just start with the introduction of the Heavy Large Laser (HLL). As far back as 2015 I have been saying that the nerfs to everything else is pushing everyone to use lasers. Now the biggest nerf that affected pretty much ALL of the mechs in the game has made even extremely long duration lasers more viable.

Majority of mechs in the heavy class that I own (29) hover around 81 (deg/s) and most of the assaults I own (41) hover around 63 (deg/s). The difference in 20 (deg/s) is not massive, I mean you can feel it but its still not as fast as the DRG's 135 (deg/s) or the IFR's 157 (deg/s).

What this does is makes it a lot harder for a mech with lesser (I'll esimate roughly <120 [deg/s] ) torso twist rates to splash a 1.55 second duration laser alpha. The baseline they used for the mobility and agility of all mechs was the worst mech you could, the DWF. Instead of the perfectly acceptable twisting of an AS7 with a STD 350. This has drastically lowered TTK and severely limited the 100 ton weight at 58 (deg/s). How often do you see KDKs outside of the KDK3? Or BNCs and BLRs? Mechs that used to take a giant XL engine so that they could twist.

The total alpha of the HBR build that everyone is complaining about is 64, with over half of that damage taking 1.55 seconds to accomplish. A good portion of the community doesn't bother with twisting so they can't be helped, but more than half that alpha is eliminating armor/structure from a CT before they can effectively turn away from it.


Mobility has taken a massive hit too, most heavies are at ~20 (accel) and most assaults are at about 10 (accel). What this means is, you can't peak. The second you look around a corner you don't stop moving for a few seconds and then if there are enemies you can't back up into cover faster than they can deliver a 1.55 second duration alpha. This has even negatively affected lights that used to be able to stop on a dime and go from 0 to max in a blink.

So due to engine desync you can't justify taking a large XL engine (or LFE) because the only thing you get out of it is max speed. You can no longer twist effectively or back into cover when taking a face full of 60 damage.


This was all done because two mechs that had top tier status at the time were doing too well. The TBR and the KDK 3. Instead of nerfing two mechs specifically they rendered all mechs (outside a few dartboard balanced chassis) slow and sluggish.


If you can't go back and resync the engines and then apply nerfs to the biggest offenders, then can you go through and please give everything that isn't a major top tier chassis a significant boost to their agility and mobility?


Buff the PPFLD weapons and SRMs up while you're at it to help make them as attractive as a laser alpha.


Severe nerfs to lasers, clan or innersphere, makes the energy only chassis, whether they're good or bad, unusable.

Edited by Xetelian, 19 May 2018 - 05:47 PM.

[El Bandito]

I still stand by my comment that 7 damage for 1 ton weapon is unbalanced, and 78 laser only alpha is retardedly good in trades. Something should be done to lower those.

[Gamuray]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I still stand by my comment that 7 damage for 1 ton weapon is unbalanced, and 78 laser only alpha is retardedly good in trades. Something should be done to lower those.

I mean, the only reason the 78 damage laser alpha is THAT bad is that it can be difficult to punish due to the number of other mechs on the field that can prevent you from pushing the mech when it's hot. I play the things to decent effect, but I can say that 78 damage is nice until you're in a brawling scenario and don't have time to cool. It gets rough then.

I haven't heard of it used much in Solaris, likely for that reason. If team sizes in QP were smaller, it probably, again, would be less or an issue. Less.

Essentially, big laser alphas aren't that bad in principle since they do have the heat/cooldown weakness, it's just that that weakness is covered easily by large team sizes. OP is right though, less mobility does make it easier to focus laser damage to a component. Makes dps AC's easier too, technically... and not having the heat weakness, explains why its good in Solaris...

[Battlemaster56]

Buff IS std and er laser damage by 1 so 6 std/er medium laser is 38 damage only 4 damage less than 6 cerml, and adding it with LL that does 10 damage 68 to the clans 74 only 6 damage behind but still able to bring the hurt.

And it greatly boost damage of the dual HGR+ml combo up to 88 that challenging some giga builds the MCMKII and DWF can do.

I would love to see that laser buff for IS.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 20 May 2018 - 11:05 AM.

[Jonathan8883]

Even worse, the sluggish mechs are simply NO FUN to drive.

[FupDup]

Battlemaster56, on 19 May 2018 - 06:43 PM, said:

Buff IS std and er laser damage by 1 so 6 std/er medium laser is 38 damage only 4 damage lass than 6 cerml, and adding it with LL that does 10 damage 68 to the clans 74 only 6 damage behind but still able to bring the hurt.

And it greatly boost damage of the dual HGR+ml combo up to 88 that challenging some giga builds the MCMKII and DWF can do.

I would love to see that laser buff for IS.

I regard the 5-damage IS ML as the unimpeachable baseline of Battletech. If we get to the point where we're even considering a damage increase for it, then we've power crept past the point of no return. Some of the Clan lasers need to be brought down instead of constantly pushing the baseline higher, and I say this as someone who mostly runs Clan mechs and laser vomit myself.

Not saying there shouldn't be any buffs (there certainly should be some), but a 6-damage IS ML is absolutely out of the question.

[Xetelian]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I still stand by my comment that 7 damage for 1 ton weapon is unbalanced, and 78 laser only alpha is retardedly good in trades. Something should be done to lower those.

I've suggested making it 6 damage but at the same time lowering its duration and heat. They went waaaaaay to far with the cSPL and ruined them so a small nerf is too out of character for them. They only know two things:

Dartboard
Sledgehammer




It would really toughen up some of these robits if we could move around better.

[Battlemaster56]

FupDup, on 19 May 2018 - 07:25 PM, said:

I regard the 5-damage IS ML as the unimpeachable baseline of Battletech. If we get to the point where we're even considering a damage increase for it, then we've power crept past the point of no return. Some of the Clan lasers need to be brought down instead of constantly pushing the baseline higher, and I say this as someone who mostly runs Clan mechs and laser vomit myself.

Not saying there shouldn't be any buffs (there certainly should be some), but a 6-damage IS ML is absolutely out of the question.

I mean 6 damage clan laser won't shake things up to much in the clan lineup and builds as a guy who runs mostly clan mechs to it won't hurt my laser vomit or gauss vomit anyway or any laser related builds as it still take the same amount of time for me to kill an opponent just a tiny extra time to do so.

Don't take this as me defending the overwhelming power that is cERML and HLL, I do believe toning down HLL first to get out the way should start then hitting cERML, I'm just looking for many alternatives and see the options before hit the first button.

Edited by Battlemaster56, 20 May 2018 - 11:06 AM.

[ANOM O MECH]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I still stand by my comment that 7 damage for 1 ton weapon is unbalanced, and 78 laser only alpha is retardedly good in trades. Something should be done to lower those.

I agree.

Especially when I get to do it twice, in a fast agile heavy before running to cool off.

Would be ok with me if you couldn't fire Heavies and other laser classes at the same time.

[JC Daxion]

El Bandito, on 19 May 2018 - 06:06 PM, said:

I still stand by my comment that 7 damage for 1 ton weapon is unbalanced, and 78 laser only alpha is retardedly good in trades. Something should be done to lower those.

I want them to bring back Power Draw and do it right this time.. It was a very solid concept that just needed more work. If you have a 78 point alpha that should make you go from zero to max in one shot...

I also have thought about a scaling heat threshold thing. Basically if you are in the 90+ you would hit a pause before you started to cool. Basically if you alpha's and hit max heat you would be in defense mode for a short bit. It could change gameplay somewhat.

Edited by JC Daxion, 19 May 2018 - 08:47 PM.

[El Bandito]

JC Daxion, on 19 May 2018 - 08:45 PM, said:

I want them to bring back Power Draw and do it right this time.. It was a very solid concept that just needed more work. If you have a 78 point alpha that should make you go from zero to max in one shot...

Progressive heat penalty might have helped too. Imagine if a mech's accel/decel is cut in half if its heat is over 70%. That'll make poking with big laser alphas more risky, as you can't go back to cover as fast as before.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 May 2018 - 09:34 AM.

[Xetelian]

JC Daxion, on 19 May 2018 - 08:45 PM, said:

I want them to bring back Power Draw and do it right this time.. It was a very solid concept that just needed more work. If you have a 78 point alpha that should make you go from zero to max in one shot...

Power Draw was so badly thought up that there is no way I trust PGI to actually implement it. Restricting Assault mechs to just a 30 point alpha, the same 30 point alpha as a light mech, is dumb as hell.

An alpha of 4xSRM4 is not the same as an alpha of three isERPPC but their implementation of Power Draw didn't account for spread. It was easy to reach above 30 with just a handful of certain weapons while PPFLD at roughly 30 would run wild. Not to mention the fact that we now have 2xATM12 that either do 24 damage or 72 damage depending on range. And the fact that cERPPC only does 10 PPFLD damage and would count for 15. It would have broken 99% of the builds out there and allowed the DWF to run 6xUAC5 no problem.


Look at how PGI implemented engine desync. Again, it was an interesting concept on paper, no longer would engines dictate how well you moved but instead PGI would carefully (lol) balance (lol) each mech (there's only 80+ chassis right?) while nerfing the major top tier. Instead what we got was a nerf to EVERYTHING which lowered TTK for all of them.


PGI has no foresight and does nothing with their hindsight. We have a game being balanced on data that they don't share and I am of the opinion that they don't purge their older data often enough so that mechs that have gone from top tier to middle or bottom tier with their nerfs don't get any buffs or roll backs of nerfs for years if ever. We also have a game being balanced on whims as far as I'm concerned. We definitely have a game being balanced by 'dartboard' because some of the buffs and nerfs make little to no sense from any perspective outside PGI's.



Sluggish and slow mechs are unfun. Which is why I haven't seen a Spirit Bear in many many months.
This also killed brawling for a lot of mechs. Without the ability to fire/twist/twist/fire you just can't make use of a lot of assaults.
I haven't touched my 4 Atlas (3 of them Founders, Loyalty and Hero) since trying them after the desync. Can't even entertain the idea of playing my KDK 1(S) at all.



I really want them to make either engines, resync or a massive sweep of huge buffs to all mechs aside from the god tier mechs.

Edited by Xetelian, 19 May 2018 - 10:14 PM.

[ANOM O MECH]

JC Daxion, on 19 May 2018 - 08:45 PM, said:

I want them to bring back Power Draw and do it right this time.. It was a very solid concept that just needed more work. If you have a 78 point alpha that should make you go from zero to max in one shot...

I also have thought about a scaling heat threshold thing. Basically if you are in the 90+ you would hit a pause before you started to cool. Basically if you alpha's and hit max heat you would be in defense mode for a short bit. It could change gameplay somewhat.

I played a lot on those test servers...

It was hot garbage and it wasn't just PGI implementation. They did in a way that was as simple and straightforward as they could, but it was still awful.

This game is the most complicated fps with a steep learning curve already. Having heat management, ghost heat, and then add to it draw? No way, no how and I really doubt PGI will consider it due to the reception last time.

[Variant1]

remove weapon quirks and weapon nodes. then nerf clan lasers dmg by 1 and increase heat by 1. Then we can nerf is lasers if they too are overperforming other weapons

[Khobai]

7 damage CERML has always been stupid

it needs to be 6 damage

dunno why thats so hard for PGI to figure out

Variant1, on 20 May 2018 - 08:12 AM, said:

remove weapon quirks and weapon nodes. then nerf clan lasers dmg by 1 and increase heat by 1. Then we can nerf is lasers if they too are overperforming other weapons

if damage is lowered, heat should also be lowered, not increased

a 6 damage CERML should generate like 5.4 heat

beam duration and cooldown can also be lowered on a 6 damage CERML

Edited by Khobai, 20 May 2018 - 08:33 AM.

[LordBraxton]

The desync ruined the customization essential to a good MW title

In the classic pick 2 of Speed, Firepower, Armor... I always picked speed and armor, a fun combination for me.

THIS IS NO LONGER AN OPTION

Speed was removed as an option in the desync, once battle is joined, your forward movement speed matters a LOT less than your turning rate, twist rate, acceleration\decel.

All MWO builds now essentially put an engine fast enough to keep up with the mob in quickplay, then max firepower.

Make giant engine's great again.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Battlemaster56, on 19 May 2018 - 07:43 PM, said:

DOn't take this as me defending the overwhelming power that is cERML and HLL, I do believe toning down HLL first to get out the way should start then hitting cERML, I'm just looking for many alternatives and see the options before hit the first button.

There is nothing overwhelming about the cERML and HLL. The have extremely long cooldown, extremely long beam duration and in the case of the HLL, extreme heat. There are only few Clan mechs that can really mount HLL's effectively and then only if they can devote a minimum of 20 DHS to the build. Also they aren't the problem, The problem is the alpha that a few mechs/builds can generate when they stack them.

The first thing everyone needs to realized it is not the weapons that are the problem, it is he build or tactic that is the problem. It is similar to the issue with UACs. When they were boated on a KDK-3, they were a serious problem making that particular build or mech OP'ed as hell but UACs used on other mechs, in other combinations were pretty well balanced. Then came the great UAC nerf and lets be honest, builds that used a single UAC were penalized exceptionally hard maybe to the point of making mounting a single UAC rather pointless. I don't want to see this sort of thing happening again.

So instead of nerfing weapons, lets talk about a way to nerf the build or the tactic that doesn't also destroy every other mech build that uses the weapons in the process similar to the way adding Ghost Heat would have done had they went through with what they had originally planned.

[El Bandito]

LordBraxton, on 20 May 2018 - 08:45 AM, said:

The desync ruined the customization essential to a good MW title

In the classic pick 2 of Speed, Firepower, Armor... I always picked speed and armor, a fun combination for me.

THIS IS NO LONGER AN OPTION

You can still pilot mechs that have retained good mobility. Plenty of lower tier Heavies/Assaults still have good mobility + durability, just not firepower.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 May 2018 - 09:21 AM.

[LordBraxton]

El Bandito, on 20 May 2018 - 09:20 AM, said:

You can still pilot mechs that have retained good mobility. Plenty of lower tier Heavies/Assaults still have good mobility + durability, just not firepower.

you're missing the point. Picking a chassis does NOT = CUSTOMIZATION.

There is no mech with the same degree of armor and agility as the old banshee for example, with xl380, which was still a vulnerable mech with an IS xl and a huge torso.

Before it was possible to take a 70-90 ton mech and choose to put a massive engine in them to sacrifice firepower for speed, now that massive engine is almost always a waste.

What did the engine desync accomplish? What was the point? Besides putting a selection of previously solid mechs in the dumpster?

Edited by LordBraxton, 20 May 2018 - 09:28 AM.

[El Bandito]

LordBraxton, on 20 May 2018 - 09:26 AM, said:

you're missing the point. Picking a chassis does NOT = CUSTOMIZATION.

Before it was possible to take a 70-90 ton mech and choose to put a massive engine in them to sacrifice firepower for speed, now that massive engine is almost always a waste.

I used to put 375-390 XL on mechs such as KDK-3 and MAD-IIC, and still had huge amount of firepower in addition to mobility to keep up with a Light mech trying to circle around me. It was not balanced. Engine desync is helping lighter mechs and I am completely fine with that.

Edited by El Bandito, 20 May 2018 - 09:31 AM.