78 replies to this topic

[Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood]

Stinger554, on 01 June 2018 - 12:07 PM, said:

(but there's a reason Huntsman is in Div1 and Bushie isn't ).

I'd chalk that up to PGI not having a clue about division balance for the most part.

MischiefSC, on 01 June 2018 - 06:51 AM, said:

Change it to 1 division for each weight class and 1 division with all mechs allowed.

What mechs would be top performers in each division?

Annihilator
Toss up between various IS mechs and Orion IIC-A
Bushwacker/Kintaro
Wolfhound-2

[Stinger554]

Champion of Khorne Lord of Blood, on 01 June 2018 - 01:46 PM, said:

I'd chalk that up to PGI not having a clue about division balance for the most part.

I don't know about that I've killed plenty of people in my ACW-1 and even a few with the Huntsman, though it's not a Div1 mech. Though that's more because the other mechs are too good for 1v1s rather than the Huntsman being bad.

So....

Edited by Stinger554, 01 June 2018 - 02:20 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 01 June 2018 - 05:35 AM, said:

Doesn't really matter what you think. What matters that Solaris is being IS biased because PGI's balance philosophy was wrong fundamentally--despite my repeated attempts at correcting them. And now Solaris showing their flaws in all their glory. PGI was wrong, Clan apologists were wrong, and Solaris is lacking in competitive Clan mechs cause of that.

Honestly your wrong. PGI's balance philosophy is based on a 12 vs 12 scenario not a 1 vs 1 scenario. Whenever you change up the battlefield conditions, your going to find that the requirements to fight that battle are going to be changed as well.

Lets go the other extreme. Lets say PGI came up with a battle mode that made you fight an entire campaign of battles with only one mech and limited resources to repair or rearm you mech between battles. Due to the fact you had limited resources ammo reliant mechs would actually be at quite the disadvantage so even if we returned the KDK-3 back to it former glory, it would probably be rendered completely ineffective after 2-3 matches due to its over-reliance on Ballistics to do damage. From a Meta standpoint for these matches it would be consider DOA or extremely bad. Your just going to run out of ammo and not be able to inflict any damage on the enemy. On the other hand a mech like the Marauder IIC and energy boats like it might become overpowered due to fact it was an all energy based and wouldn't require any of the available resources to be devoted to ammo. Then lets say they made it so that you would have to pay for repairs and the amount of C-bills you could bring as resources would be very limited. In that case, the Marauder IIC might very well become DOA because it is Clan it its repair cost would be through the roof, however IS mechs using basic tech and standard engines of which there are actually quite a few good chassis that could run this, those mechs would then become meta because they would be cheap to repair and the most basic IS mechs and builds would actually rise to ascendancy.

The point is, once you change the conditions, balance changes dramatically. This is why I have said and keep saying PGI can't balance around Solaris. If they do they throw off any balance we have in QP and even FW. Change the mode, change the conditions, change the balance.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 01 June 2018 - 04:25 PM.

[VitriolicViolet]

and here it comes, turns out balance is screwed and is basically unfixable. IS mechs tend to win 1v1 in Solaris due to the fact its in their favor, only need enough ammo to kill one mech, speed is almost entirely irrelevant, as is range.

On the other end CW favors Clan, long range engagements on nearly every map, 12v12 exacerbates the issue by giving Clan long range focus fire, large maps favor speed as does the wave aspect of CW, pushing out away from you base.

QP being more of mishmash.

Now we wait to see what will happen, if PGI tries to balance mechs based on Solaris **** will get ugly

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 01 June 2018 - 04:24 PM, said:

Honestly your wrong. PGI's balance philosophy is based on a 12 vs 12 scenario not a 1 vs 1 scenario. Whenever you change up the battlefield conditions, your going to find that the requirements to fight that battle are going to be changed as well.

The point is, once you change the conditions, balance changes dramatically. This is why I have said and keep saying PGI can't balance around Solaris. If they do they throw off any balance we have in QP and even FW. Change the mode, change the conditions, change the balance.

Doesn't matter if it is 1v1 or 12v12, tech balance will bring better balance to all modes. Cause quirks are what is making IS mechs so ascendant in Solaris.

[Angel of Annihilation]

El Bandito, on 01 June 2018 - 07:28 PM, said:

Doesn't matter if it is 1v1 or 12v12, tech balance will bring better balance to all modes. Cause quirks are what is making IS mechs so ascendant in Solaris.

Ok your right and wrong at the same time.

If we eliminate all differences, give both sides a mech that is shaped identical to other but call one Clan and one IS, then give them both an identical small laser except of course call one a Clan Small Laser and one a IS Small Laser then yes just as you indicate, the tech balance achieved by that would absolutely bring better balance to all modes.

But we don't have that. We have two different tech bases that have to retain at least some semblance of what is established by the IP or else we are no longer playing Mechwarrior Online, rather we are playing Robowars Online with mechs that happen to look like Battletech/Mechwarrior IP material.

PGI's mistake is trying to cater to everyone instead of focusing on making one core game. If they wanted FW to be great, the game should have been completely focused on FW. If QP was the thing, they should have focused on making QP great. If 1 vs 1 dueling was the show, then they should have focused on really elaborate 1 vs 1 combat. You just can't have everything, in fact being greedy and wanting too much is exactly why the entire MMO market has fallen into near total desolation.

[FupDup]

Viktor Drake, on 01 June 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

Ok your right and wrong at the same time.

If we eliminate all differences, give both sides a mech that is shaped identical to other but call one Clan and one IS, then give them both an identical small laser except of course call one a Clan Small Laser and one a IS Small Laser then yes just as you indicate, the tech balance achieved by that would absolutely bring better balance to all modes.

But we don't have that. We have two different tech bases that have to retain at least some semblance of what is established by the IP or else we are no longer playing Mechwarrior Online, rather we are playing Robowars Online with mechs that happen to look like Battletech/Mechwarrior IP material.

PGI's mistake is trying to cater to everyone instead of focusing on making one core game. If they wanted FW to be great, the game should have been completely focused on FW. If QP was the thing, they should have focused on making QP great. If 1 vs 1 dueling was the show, then they should have focused on really elaborate 1 vs 1 combat. You just can't have everything, in fact being greedy and wanting too much is exactly why the entire MMO market has fallen into near total desolation.

Just want to point out that balancing the factions doesn't have to be "making them all the same." At one point the Clan LPL vs. the IS LPL was one of the most balanced comparisons between the factions, both having their own distinct uses without stepping on each other's toes.

[Nightbird]

And then PGI made both IS and Clan LPLs useless. Your point?

[FupDup]

Nightbird, on 01 June 2018 - 09:55 PM, said:

And then PGI made both IS and Clan LPLs useless. Your point?

That's why I said "at one point." It's to demonstrate that making the factions feel different yet overall equal in power is possible, even if it's not the current situation we have right now.

Edited by FupDup, 01 June 2018 - 09:56 PM.

[Nightbird]

FupDup, on 01 June 2018 - 09:56 PM, said:

That's why I said "at one point." It's to demonstrate that making the factions feel different yet overall equal in power is possible, even if it's not the current situation we have right now.

That's fine, I thought you meant PGI should make all good mechs in Solaris bad, which they will do...

[Bluttrunken]

I think it's time to remove all quirks and start the balance cycle again. It would be something to look forward to, at least. Weren't quirks meant to be only temporary?

In the beginning I enjoyed the changes because much more mechs became viable(not top tier mechs, mind it, just viable and fun to play). By now we have a grotesque bloat of stats, we should turn back before it's too late.

[FupDup]

Nightbird, on 01 June 2018 - 09:59 PM, said:

That's fine, I thought you meant PGI should make all good mechs in Solaris bad, which they will do...

To clarify, I think that PGI should not balance around Solaris period.

Solaris should have its own issues sorted out with divisions or maybe even mode-specific stuff like what they did to Flamers if divisions can't solve all the issues. But definitely no global Solaris-based buffs or nerfs that would impact normal pug and premade queue gameplay.

Edited by FupDup, 01 June 2018 - 10:03 PM.

[El Bandito]

Viktor Drake, on 01 June 2018 - 09:44 PM, said:

Ok your right and wrong at the same time.If we eliminate all differences, give both sides a mech that is shaped identical to other but call one Clan and one IS, then give them both an identical small laser except of course call one a Clan Small Laser and one a IS Small Laser then yes just as you indicate, the tech balance achieved by that would absolutely bring better balance to all modes.

What you and many players do not realize is that the concept of "same" and "equal" are two different things. You can have equal competence for both techs but they do not have to be the same. For example, giving IS LFE no penalty upon ST destruction would make it more equal to that of Clan XL, without making them carbon copies.

PGI has very little imagination in that regards.

Edited by El Bandito, 01 June 2018 - 10:39 PM.

[Dogstar]

Bluttrunken, on 01 June 2018 - 10:00 PM, said:

I think it's time to remove all quirks

Doing that would make something like 90% of IS mechs highly uncompetitive.

Great idea if you want clans to dominate all modes including Solaris, otherwise not a good idea.

Realistically, to prevent such radical overnight changes everything needs to be adjusted gradually with the goal of making quirks go away as much as possible.

One option: a lot of mechs (mostly IS but also some clan) could get rid of their quirks if PGI would give them some more hardpoints instead. Look at the Vindicator for an example, it has one missile hardpoint so gets a ridiculous missile cooldown that makes it super effective in Solaris with one specific missile based loadout. Give it three extra missile hardpoints and minimal quirks and suddenly it's got more build options - SRM brawler for example.

El Bandito, on 01 June 2018 - 10:37 PM, said:

PGI has very little imagination in that regards.

Yep were cursed by having a minimally viable game created by unimaginative owners - things could be so much better...

Edited by Dogstar, 03 June 2018 - 10:11 AM.

[MischiefSC]

El Bandito, on 01 June 2018 - 06:58 AM, said:

Dakka Anni for assault class, Dakka Jager/MRM IV-FOUR for heavy class, SRM Kintaro/Bushwacker for medium class, light class is a real tossup between several mechs, mostly among IS mechs and Piranha/Splat Jenner-IIC--72 damage at point blank can spell a bad day to any Light.

I think.

Wolfhound maybe, crit lynx and splat Jenner strongest (or streak Jenner for light v light). A streakmando is really strong vs lights, but a lights only division I'd probably call for the Jenner. Wolfhound is a great light especially in mixed teams bit 1 v 1 vs other lights is out classes either by boated MGs (OPAF) or boated splat/streaks.

Are you seriously saying the dakka jag is stronger than an Orion or a LBK or even dakka Gyr? Because dakka gear will out DPS the Jag and has more armor. The Onion IIc is way tanker and punches harder and unless it's 1km of flat terrain the LBK will trot right up and obliterate the Jag. Even IS Orion is stronger. MRM IV4 is really strong but 1 v 1 just lacks the sustainable DPS and alpha. In a team where it's not getting focused the IV4 is amazing. 1 v 1 it just doesn't have the umph. Heavies would end up with a strong Clan bias.

1 v 1 the Anni is really strong and has a lot of flavors from boated LBX for brawl punch to 6xAC5 or 6xAC2 for mid/long range DPS right up to brawl. There's a few situations where you could out-burst it with a MC MKII but right now the Anni in 1 v 1 vs assaults is just too stronk. I'd call this the most 1 sided class.

Mediums - Whacker is really tanky. You could kite poke it down in a Scat or just leg it and range it with a HBKIIC. I would see mediums as the least 1 sided class.

[El Bandito]

MischiefSC, on 03 June 2018 - 11:50 AM, said:

Are you seriously saying the dakka jag is stronger than an Orion or a LBK or even dakka Gyr? Because dakka gear will out DPS the Jag and has more armor. The Onion IIc is way tanker and punches harder and unless it's 1km of flat terrain the LBK will trot right up and obliterate the Jag. Even IS Orion is stronger. MRM IV4 is really strong but 1 v 1 just lacks the sustainable DPS and alpha. In a team where it's not getting focused the IV4 is amazing. 1 v 1 it just doesn't have the umph. Heavies would end up with a strong Clan bias.

I haven't given it much thought when I posted. Besides, Jagers are very easy to disarm post patch so yeah, other mechs can beat it.

Dogstar, on 03 June 2018 - 10:09 AM, said:

Yep were cursed by having a minimally viable game created by unimaginative owners - things could be so much better...

At least we have a game... that's what I tell myself every day.

Edited by El Bandito, 03 June 2018 - 12:23 PM.

[Popcat]

"This also goes to show that IS and Clan have different strengths and weaknesses at present. PGI not designing the game modes to cater to the strengths of both sides equally is why we see one side dominate one mode and the other side another mode."

It seems to me ( with a few notable mech exceptions) is that clans play easier. They have slightly longer range, slightly better heat management an on average a few extra hard points per chassis (Omni pods making easier add more). So you put a ordinary pilot into one and on average they tend to do better. Just a little. When it's 40 vs 40 this gets amplified and turns into a slaughter if IS is not on it's game and the clan team kinda off. 4 vs 4 its not as bad because once again it's only slight sightly amplified and if IS can get even a one mech advantage it can be a fairly fair fight. But 1 vs 1 the advantage is just ever so slight if it's not taken advantage of by a skilled pilot it can be almost negated. A better IS pilot or a build guided around it's quirks can tear up the field.

Just my thought.

[BrunoSSace]

Range, quick and hot with paper armor.
Armored, slow, short range and heat effective weapons. Can you tell who is who?

There is a reason you don't bother trading at range with Clans. They are the king. But in this Arena, guess who is top dog? I dont see what the problem is, pgi in their infinite wisdom, will keep nerfing IS after every patch. Just wait till the next one in the2 weeks, Inner Sphere will be on the receiving end hard this time.
O/ Bruno.

[The Lighthouse]

....At this point and with such population we have, can we just have one single queue for Solaris? At least we will have people all consolidated to one single queue.