52 replies to this topic

[SneekiBreeki]

Yes.

[Summin]

Yes.

[Zh0u]

Yes.

[Appogee]

Yes.

(But at least you're bringing backup weapons and sound like you're not sitting at the back spamming at remote locks.)

[Magnus Santini]

It can be fun to take a fast medium with LRMs, get to the flank or behind the enemy, and fun!! Eventually they will come for you, but they may have to come out from behind their rock to catch you.

[ZippySpeedMonkey]

Well, I was going to tell you that it isn’t unless you’re stupid enough to build a pure LRM boat with no secondaries for self defence...

But you’ve already shown that you posses somewhat of a brain in that you already do this, so have fun and get ready for the inevitability of being jumped by Lights..

[WhineyThePoo]

[Redacted]

Edited by draiocht, 01 June 2018 - 02:41 PM.
unconstructive

[Dragonporn]

I honestly don't get why so many people get so mad when somebody even mentions LRMs. You either can lurm and and know how to, or you can't. Yeah, it's a niche weapon, but it's pretty vital to be part of the mix in solo QP at very least. Because when somebody dakka or laser vomit target which got its CT/ST armor stripped away in one go, and trying to fall back behind the rock to survive, indirect (dumb fire f.e.) from LRMs can finish him off, and moping up badly damaged opponents hiding behind cover, and who playing conservatively still can dish out serious damage or be a nuisance is very important task, which you can't accomplish with any other weapon system, without exposing yourself too much. But that's only one of its uses, on some maps good lurmer can dominate and literally kill everything solo, if team is able to protect it at least from Light attacks.

Currently LRMs are in good place, they aren't too powerful and even Assault boating them won't have damage of other (missile as well) systems in similar quantities, but it is compensated by having indirect fire, and buffing long range/artillery weaponry too much is a cause of big grief in any type of game, be it Shooter or RTS. While direct fire (with Artemis+nodes) it can destroy targets incredibly quickly (damage of LRM 80 is just simply crazy), so even toughest mech caught out of position can be reliably killed and no movements or nearby cover will help him to survive (target retention will make sure of that).

It's niche but flexible, can be support, can be boated, can be mixed up and having one or two (skillful) lurmers on ANY map is a good thing. People see some bad play for guys trying LRMs and going nuts about it, but seeing EVEN MORE laser vomiters or dakka runners who can't hit wide side of a barn somehow gets forgotten and nobody mentions it. I have total of 25 mechs, only two of them carrying LRMs (one is boating and another is mixup/support with lasers), and I'd rather have mediocre LRM boat, who I can guide over comms and can get some damage/open up components for the team, instead of few dakkers or lazor-vomiters, who can't hit jack and running off in the open or chasing squirrels all day long.

Pretty much every weapon system has its uses in this game, you just have to know how to.

[Vellron2005]

BrunoSSace, on 31 May 2018 - 08:29 PM, said:

Tell you the truth, I have never boated just LRMs. The idea sounds silly to me. Why start a fight if you cant defend yourself? Funny thing is I will push those LRMer's and kill them with mine. Oh how sweat the irony.

So moral of this story is, bring back up weapons and not hug the back of the map. You give good Lrmer pilots a bad name. Bruno O/

See this is why I personally distinguish between mixed LRM boats and Dedicated LRM boats..

I play both.. and let me tell you, they are two very different play styles.

As a mixed boat, yes, you can have very good "secondary" lasers, and your playstyle will be more forward. But there's a drawback. You will always be between playstyles, never being able to fully take advantage of your entire loadout. And since you have a low tube count, you will be totally nullified by an Irondome mech (3AMS+ECM carrier).

When you are a dedicated LRM boat, it means you rely mostly on LRMs and positioning. It's a very different play style. It is always good to have some secondary weapons, but if you never use them and survive, it's a great game. Dedicate LRM boat pilots learn how to defend and how to position, and those that are successful in learning this become deadly.

You should not discount either build since they are two very different playstyles, each with their own intricacies and pitfalls.

Many don't like the dedicated LRM boat playstyle, but personally, I find it superior to mixed builds, since it is more deadly and I personally find it more fun.

Edited by Vellron2005, 01 June 2018 - 12:28 PM.

[BTGbullseye]

D V Devnull, on 31 May 2018 - 10:25 PM, said:

@ Thread Topic --- I'm gonna be right up front with this... Does anyone here have some tips on the maximum amount of LRM Ammo to carry if you're going to be up there Front-Lining with your Mech? The recommendation I usually hear (and particularly from people like Baradul, just for example... He's a good guy, from what I can tell...) is "1 Ton LRM Ammo per every 5 LRM Missile Tubes", but it doesn't seem to be working out. I've tried stepping up front, but I get focused down just as soon as I dare poke my head up (and so freaking fast), such that I'm backing off (or DEAD and unable to help the team) before I can do anything. It's become metaphorically burned into my brain to remain as a Second-Line Support all round long when I'm operating as LRM Support, actively forcing me to depend on others sharing Locking Info in order to be of use. Frankly, the only thing driving me to use LRMs at all currently is people repeatedly jumping right into my line of fire AFTER my having pulled the trigger with Direct Fire Weapons, and causing me to Team Kill them. So I end up wanting to use an Indirect Fire Weapon that will go over and past them at the enemy, preventing the unwanted Team Damage that plagues me when I use Direct Fire Weaponry. And in case you're wondering, I keep trying to actively have a clear line of fire at the enemy when I use Direct Fire Weapons, as I don't assume my firing line will always be clear without regard to where I sit!

I would suggest aiming for 30 shots total with LRMs if you're firing all tubes in a volley. More than that and you're risking ammo explosion deaths. There are exceptions of course, but you'll be hard pressed to find a match in which you fire more times than that.

As for the indirect fire stuff, I feel you. You pop up to try and get your locks, and everyone else on your team decides that doing anything at all for the next 2-3 minutes is a bad idea, and hides. Makes it a PITA to do what you really should. This problem is what usually kills not just the LRMer, but also the entire team.

Yes, not killing the idiot teammates that jump in front of your 50-120 damage volley is a huge benefit of LRMs. I can't tell you how many legs I've blown off with my dual HGauss because a light just had to jumpjet into my line of fire hoping for the killshot, instead losing a leg and preventing the kill altogether. I've gotten to the point that IDGAF if they do this, they deserve the horrible death that awaits them. (fortunately I have never had a timer punish for any of this, don't ask me why)

LordNothing, on 01 June 2018 - 12:59 AM, said:

mrms and atms have completely obsoleted lerms for me. i used to keep 2 or 3 lerm boats in my inventory and maybe 4 or 5 mixed builds with lrms (and im somewhere around 114 mechs now, so needless to say not a majority). but they are all atm/mrm boats now, and the mixed builds have either had the missiles replaced with atms/mrms or have been reworked with new ballistics reducing their tube counts a lot (and those tubes also switched to atm/mrm). a few is missile boats are now is streak boats, even though i really dont run them.

Even inside the 3 damage range for ATMs, a single AMS makes LRMs a superior damage dealer. The only way ATMs actually beat LRMs in actual gameplay is if you're comparing to non-artemis LRMs from the IS, and the enemy doesn't have any AMS.

[Brain Cancer]

Asym, on 01 June 2018 - 05:46 AM, said:

OP, LRM's are part of the combined arms concept..... The meta community has issues with them because good missile platforms can and do complicate closing with the enemy and brawling: which, is what they know and want....

Actually, it's because those complications are more than compensated for by the ease one can get around them, leaving the team rapidly down large amounts of tonnage and hence potential firepower. LRMs are conditional, LRMs are spread damage, and it means that LRMs deal lethal damage s-l-o-w-l-y versus trading with direct fire weaponry.

In games where your opponent can literally cripple a target in 1-2 salvos, something that takes three times as long is in real trouble.

Quote

Perfect it, refine it and if supported by a few fellow IDF pilots, missiles can and will interrupt the enemies plans to farm you....

And, as an added bonus, it really frustrates brawling FPS pilots; especially, when done well... If IDF helps with retention of any player, that is a bonus....

...until your opponent decides you're a tastier target and turns your skull into a combination drinking vessel and marital aid. LRMs are not for comp because LRMs are not optimized for a game where direct, pinpoint damage is king. Bad brawlers will wade out into your lurmdrizzle and be annoyed, good ones will just work their way into range in something other than a straight line and tear your guts out.

That's the whole core issue with LRMs- they are better as your opponent gets worse, but they're not good enough at the base level to be dangerous to good players on a regular basis.

Edited by Brain Cancer, 01 June 2018 - 11:36 AM.

[Cloves]

LRMs are great against bad players in general on most maps. They really scale down against better players or on maps that don’t support them. If you are an older player with less coordination and reflexes, they can let you work on your positioning skills and map knowledge to let you contribute more than you could otherwise. Because the best young unimpaired players can do better with a non-situational direct fire weapon, they get a lot of hate, thus so will you. It does not help that when used badly, they are just as bad as any other badly used weapon and if you are out of position they encourage folks to fire when they should not like outside of 1k or when the target was glimpsed for 1 second by an enemy teammate while they where standing in perfect lrm cover, or while terrain is in your way.

LRMs- easy against potatoes, very specific tool otherwise. Total boating is bad since they are so limited in their application. Allows folks that could not compete otherwise contribute, but nobody wants to carry an impaired player, they want all thier teammates to be better than themselves.


- edit. Ton per five is the golden rule, but you really have to play the build to find out. Heavier builds tend to get use more, as they survive fire longer. Lately I have been using lights and mediums to lrm for the first half, then switch to direct fire once ammo is gone to clean up the damaged mechs. This also means you have more weight in direct fire offense when folks follow the rainbow back to you.

Edited by Cloves, 01 June 2018 - 01:40 PM.

[Eisenhorne]

Oh god, the LRM zealots are here now.

Can't we all agree LRM's are pretty effective against potatoes, and most players in QP are potatoes, therefore it's possible to use LRM's in QP to some effect and just leave it at that? Even if other options are indeed better?

Edited by Eisenhorne, 01 June 2018 - 01:35 PM.

[Asym]

Brain Cancer, on 01 June 2018 - 11:34 AM, said:

Actually, it's because those complications are more than compensated for by the ease one can get around them, leaving the team rapidly down large amounts of tonnage and hence potential firepower. LRMs are conditional, LRMs are spread damage, and it means that LRMs deal lethal damage s-l-o-w-l-y versus trading with direct fire weaponry.

In games where your opponent can literally cripple a target in 1-2 salvos, something that takes three times as long is in real trouble.

Here again, I'm not sure you've ever really fought against a team that is designed around the combined arms concepts and doctrine... I've been in MWO 18 months or so and haven't seen a team that is designed to fight that way, Not a one; and, I've seen all of the "competitive" teams play....

If my original team would have stayed in MWO, you'd see a progression of IDF based on a stealth spotter(s) determining the lethality of a "push or MTC". A scout making a tactical assessment. From that point on, you'd get struck by IDF and strikes from multiple locations and azimuths. Not one TAG, three + TAGs from different angles. We'd "push" you to where we'd kill you at long range..... We'd kill you one at a time retrograding, bounding the entire way......a continuous stream of IDF of all types... We carried 2 strikes per mech and would use all of them if time allowed. We'd avoid you to death and most of our mechs were ECM and balanced......we'd strive to not be seen or in direct, decisive contact.... We never brawl and you'd just die.....one at a time and you'd be left chasing a ghost..

It's not "what" that makes a team lethal, but rather, Whom...... Have fun and good hunting !!

[LordNothing]

BTGbullseye, on 01 June 2018 - 11:13 AM, said:

Even inside the 3 damage range for ATMs, a single AMS makes LRMs a superior damage dealer. The only way ATMs actually beat LRMs in actual gameplay is if you're comparing to non-artemis LRMs from the IS, and the enemy doesn't have any AMS.

usually on the clan side i back those atms with heavy lasers. i try to target people without ams, but if i have to fight an ams mech, il leave the atms alone and fall back on the heavy lasers. i should point out that most of my missile boats were on the is side since i really dont like clan lrms. the few that were clan, like the HGN-IIC-C, were mixed builds, so lots of fallback firepower there.

Edited by LordNothing, 01 June 2018 - 04:17 PM.

[Angel of Annihilation]

Yes. You should seek help immediately. If you keep this up your love life will be ruined, trust me.

[Brain Cancer]

Asym, on 01 June 2018 - 02:47 PM, said:

Here again, I'm not sure you've ever really fought against a team that is designed around the combined arms concepts and doctrine... I've been in MWO 18 months or so and haven't seen a team that is designed to fight that way, Not a one; and, I've seen all of the "competitive" teams play....

Because your concept is garbage in a game where the best "combined arms" is multiple, pinpoint weapons turning you into a shiny metal donut.

Quote

If my original team would have stayed in MWO, you'd see a progression of IDF based on a stealth spotter(s) determining the lethality of a "push or MTC". A scout making a tactical assessment. From that point on, you'd get struck by IDF and strikes from multiple locations and azimuths. Not one TAG, three + TAGs from different angles. We'd "push" you to where we'd kill you at long range..... We'd kill you one at a time retrograding, bounding the entire way......a continuous stream of IDF of all types... We carried 2 strikes per mech and would use all of them if time allowed. We'd avoid you to death and most of our mechs were ECM and balanced......we'd strive to not be seen or in direct, decisive contact.... We never brawl and you'd just die.....one at a time and you'd be left chasing a ghost..

This is your magical realm where you don't think the opponent isn't doing the same, only he's killing you first because you run into a deathball, encounter the joys of multiple alpha strikes and die horribly, right?

There is no metal-gear-solid mode in MWO. You are not able to be unseen, because your missile launches draw a straight line to your boats. You can -pin- a target perhaps, but it takes exposing yourself with TAG (NARC works far better, even with the extra tonnage) to an opponent who can readily look at the beam and dump on the sender. The more IDF you generate, the less targets your opponents have to worry about shooting at, and stealth armor honestly does diddly-squat in comp mode, especially when you give your opponents a laser pointer to their target.

Quote

It's not "what" that makes a team lethal, but rather, Whom...... Have fun and good hunting !!

And "whoom" is the sound you're making as your opponent first shreds your spotters with superior numbers of guns-pointed while your lurmboats hide behind terrain, followed by your lurmboats. If you're hiding enough missiles behind cover to matter, you've also left the remainder of your team with proportionally less armor to take hits with and fewer targets to split those hits between. It'd work- if LRMs were actually good enough to compensate for that to any real extent. Good players aren't shooting at red squares, they're MK1 eyeballing their targets, are going to focus fire, and can accept the slower accumulation of LRM damage while murdering the spotters (unless you want to actually engage, in which case stealth is a moot point).

[Asym]

thanks for the reply ! Good hunting.

Edited by Asym, 01 June 2018 - 09:18 PM.

[Spare Parts Bin]

If loving LRMs is wrong I do not want to right. I am not just a one trick pony.

[Tordin]

No, its not wrong to like lurms. Just make sure you know HOW to use them properly and dont kill mountains with em... And use them on lights... and dont stand back and use them only at max range... and dont have backup weapons..

You know what?

If there would be a possible way in the future, with better game engine, physiqs and such....

Stability damage, like in the BATTLETECH game would make sense and give missile a pretty good edge of being really useful, ballistic weapons like AC's should also cause stability damage but not to a degree that missiles would.
This should also come along with Inverse kinematics and knockdowns and melee (+ melee weapons)