31 replies to this topic

[Noey Bunny]

Just a thought, but wouldn't games be more likely to be closer if it was 8v8 instead of 12v12? Every quickplay match is usually 12-(1-4), absolute stomps. Which seems to me, that it's likely that the matchmaker isn't necessarily the problem here, but that there are too many variables to account for that allow one 12 man team to absolutely dominate over another.

It also seems like having potentially less players able to focus fire on a single target would increase TTK by a great deal, so the matches would be more fun for everyone included?

shower thoughts; really, and probably a complete pipedream.

Though I can't really see any negatives to 8v8 matches over 12v12. the matchmaker can be more choosey, providing better skill based placement, (easier to place players against eachother closer to their own PSR bracket)

Higher Times To Kill over all means it might be easier/less punishing to use lighter mechs.

More personal contribution: players are individually more valuable in an 8v8 environment, meaning that you're not completely hopeless if you end up with a bunch of potatos that refuse to communicate or play objectives.

The Only negative I can foresee to an 8v8 environment is potentially lower gains (exp/c-bills/match score) per match for top performing players. though you could also just multiply these by 1.5x to return the values to something near their previous totals.

[Dragonporn]

How come then every other 4v4 in Scouting ends up in stomp 1-4 or 0-4 more likely?
If comp scene wants and enjoys 8v8 so much, let Group Queue be 8v8, don't care one bit, but solo QP must be 12v12. TTK or player number has nothing to do with stomps, it happens in every single PvP game like this, which has been discussed to death here. Although on my recent experience, I can say that about 80% of my games were somewhat close, like maybe 2 out of 10 matches end up in 0-12 or 2-12, most games go between 6-12, 11-12. And on TTK in particular, I'd leave it to PGI. Hopefully they can come up with something decent to address this.

Edited by Dragonporn, 01 June 2018 - 02:01 PM.

[Nothing Whatsoever]

We had 8v8 in the past.

So shifting back only changes the player count from 24 to 16 per match, stomps are going to occur regardless, due to other variables.

[Noey Bunny]

Dragonporn, on 01 June 2018 - 01:16 PM, said:

How come then every other 4v4 in Scouting ends up in stomp 1-3 or 0-4 more likely?
If comp scene wants and enjoys 8v8 so much, let Group Queue be 8v8, don't care one bit, but solo QP must be 12v12. TTK or player number has nothing to do with stomps, it happens in every single PvP game like this, which has been discussed to death here. Although on my recent experience, I can say that about 80% of my games were somewhat close, like maybe 2 out of 10 matches end up in 0-12 or 2-12, most games go between 6-12, 11-12. And on TTK in particular, I'd leave it to PGI. Hopefully they can come up with something decent to address this.

sure, scouting can have 'stomps' too, that doesn't mean they shouldn't attempt to mediate, there's a LOT of variables here, and adding 4 more players only increase the likelihood of disparaging games, not decrease it. though it's easy enough to pick it apart the minutia; it simply is that the larger the group, the more parameters that need to be accounted for.

Nothing Whatsoever, on 01 June 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

We had 8v8 in the past.

So shifting back only changes the player count from 24 to 16 per match, stomps are going to occur regardless, due to other variables.

right, I'm not going to say stomps don't happen, in other FPS games however, stomps are prevented by reducing variation and depending on tighter matchmaking algorithms. 8v8 technically accomplishes both of these; hence why I feel it would help reduce the frequency of stomps and improve the overall game feel.

Though, it's only my opinion and of course there's a lot more to balance than any one believer could say!

(edited for readability)

Edited by NaniCat, 01 June 2018 - 01:37 PM.

[Besh]

NaniCat, on 01 June 2018 - 01:32 PM, said:

sure, scouting can have 'stomps' too, that doesn't mean they shouldn't attempt to mediate, there's a LOT of variables here, and adding 4 more players only increase the likelihood of disparaging games, not decrease it. though it's easy enough to pick it apart the minutia; it simply is that the larger the group, the more parameters that need to be accounted for.

The question is not 'can' PGI try to mediate on the issue; but what is the best approach to doing so?

Serious, there is nothing to mediate . Stomps happen due to the nature of the Game . For a more detailled explanation/discussion, have a look at this .

Edited by Besh, 01 June 2018 - 01:38 PM.

[LordBraxton]

8v8 is superior simply because as an individual you have greater influence over the success or failure of the match.

12v12 is better for people looking to get carried.

[Noey Bunny]

Besh, on 01 June 2018 - 01:37 PM, said:

Serious, there is nothing to mediate . Stomps happen due to the nature of the Game . For a more detailled explanation/discussion, have a look at this .

Sure, the game is designed in so that gaining any lead becomes an exponential advantage, that doesn't mean it needs to be like this necessarily, or that there aren't steps that can be taken to mitigate the commonality of the occurence.

saying 'it's normal' doesn't mean there isn't a problem. It reminds me of a quote by jiddu kirshnamurti; 'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society'.

As it were, many of the hardest battles for a game designer come from accounting for variables and avoiding 'unfun' gameplay. a stomp is just that.

That being said, I don't expect PGI to be candy coat the player experience, there's a volatility to MWO that can be refreshing at times; and it's up to the players to pull themselves back when they start losing and double down on their efforts to turn the game around. However; it's much easier to coordinate smaller groups.

LordBraxton, on 01 June 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

8v8 is superior simply because as an individual you have greater influence over the success or failure of the match.

12v12 is better for people looking to get carried.

I agree, I also think smaller groups would promote more comradery, and increase the over all 'fun factor' of the game.

Edited by NaniCat, 01 June 2018 - 01:58 PM.

[Dragonporn]

LordBraxton, on 01 June 2018 - 01:40 PM, said:

8v8 is superior simply because as an individual you have greater influence over the success or failure of the match.

12v12 is better for people looking to get carried.

Both of these statements contradictory, aren't they? In 8v8 it is more likely for one player to carry, but carrying 12 man team alone is nigh impossible. How 12v12 is better for people looking to get carried in this case?...

[Noey Bunny]

Dragonporn, on 01 June 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

Both of these statements contradictory, aren't they? In 8v8 it is more likely for one player to carry, but carrying 12 man team alone is nigh impossible. How 12v12 is better for people looking to get carried in this case?...

Yeah, I agree on this, while a couple of people can be potatoes in 12v12, generally it requires the whole team to work together more.

[Besh]

Dragonporn, on 01 June 2018 - 02:05 PM, said:

Both of these statements contradictory, aren't they? In 8v8 it is more likely for one player to carry, but carrying 12 man team alone is nigh impossible. How 12v12 is better for people looking to get carried in this case?...

Nice one. Also highlights another Problem with 8v8 : Individual Player Skill potentially weighs much, much heavier in a given Game compared to 12v12 . Which is I guess was one of the things meant when above it was mentioned that

Nothing Whatsoever, on 01 June 2018 - 01:30 PM, said:

[...]stomps are going to occur regardless, due to other variables.

Edited by Besh, 01 June 2018 - 02:12 PM.

[Noey Bunny]

Besh, on 01 June 2018 - 02:11 PM, said:

Nice one. Also highlights another Problem with 8v8 : Individual Player Skill potentially weighs much, much heavier in a given Game compared to 12v12 .

Yeah, I think there is some of that, though that would be on a sliding scale, smaller group matches would allow the MM system to provide a more linear response in choosing match ups; so it'd be less likely to find players that consistently perform as outliers to the bellcurve in any given match. I'm not sure though, I think this kind of interaction would have to be metered to really have any real understanding of it.

It's definitely an interesting problem to solve for though, I hadn't originally considered it; but it's true the pendulum swings both ways.

[Mister Blastman]

8v8 was clearly superior, but alas, PGI never went back. I miss 8v8. I don't miss 12v12 though, and having fun playing other stuff these days.

[KodiakGW]

Keep on hearing that nothing will change if we go back to 8v8. Stomps will still happen. Oh, wait....no, things will be worse because one potato will have a greater effect on the loss. Yeah, that’s the ticket.

How about this....

How about we give it a shot for one patch cycle for solo group QP? We’be been told it can be done with a flick of the switch. Those who don’t want to participate have group queue, and other modes. Something tells me those of you against it will still be playing solo group QP.

Give it a go, and see how many players come back. See if we get a drop in hit registration complaints. See if we get a drop in MM complaints.

Will it really be that big of an issue if we drop back for 30 days? A week? Something tells me you all don’t want to see it fall back for even a week because you won’t like the result. That those of us wanting it were right about our points.

Chicken?

[Brain Cancer]

8v8 means any given player has a bigger chance of influencing the match.

That right there makes it more appealing, because MWO QP is about carrying a team to begin with. There's more room on my back for seven players than eleven.

[Variant1]

hek no not this again. 12v12 is here to stay! 8v8 is still possible in lobbies but thats about it. 12v12 is more fun and exciting and allows a team to pull through from losses better then 8v8. 8v8 snowballs way faster since its less players, so if one mech goes down early then the match ends quicker than in 12v12

Edited by Variant1, 01 June 2018 - 08:48 PM.

[Dragonporn]

Brain Cancer, on 01 June 2018 - 04:58 PM, said:

8v8 means any given player has a bigger chance of influencing the match.

That right there makes it more appealing, because MWO QP is about carrying a team to begin with. There's more room on my back for seven players than eleven.

Not in a slightest actually... Solo QP is all about goofing around and having fun. No personal offence intended, but It is a great mystery for me why people with highly competitive mindset even enter solo QP, what do you expect? Top notch teamplay? Not happening. We have Group Queue, we have Faction Play, and lately we have Solaris, which is amazing for e-peen competition to boast how good you are afterwards. Anybody seriously want for solo play to turn into this?...

[Devils Advocate]

I'd like to see at least an occasional 8v8 until we have more maps to accommodate 12 players. 12 v 12 murderball-in-choke-points battles on maps like Solaris or Viridian Bog or The Mining Collective or Canyon Network are silly. 12 v 12 ring-around-the-rosie on maps like HPG manifold or Caustic Valley is obnoxious and is apparently just the thing every PUG group *has* to do to try to win on those and similar maps.

In a perfect world with more "balanced" mechs we could have lances deployed on specific areas on specific maps to engage with each other before joining the murder-ball so you'd at least play a role as a medium or a heavy, but since the mediums and heavies always just roll into the giant ball immediately it doesn't feel like much more than chaos to me. I mean, 12 v 12 is fine, but I do miss 8v8.

[Besh]

Dragonporn, on 02 June 2018 - 01:45 AM, said:

Not in a slightest actually... Solo QP is all about goofing around and having fun. No personal offence intended, but It is a great mystery for me why people with highly competitive mindset even enter solo QP, what do you expect? Top notch teamplay? Not happening. We have Group Queue, we have Faction Play, and lately we have Solaris, which is amazing for e-peen competition to boast how good you are afterwards. Anybody seriously want for solo play to turn into this?...

It seems like some people decided SoloQP to be what you describe it to be , and now everyone has to accept that is all there is to it, and thats that ?

In my experience ( I play a lot of SoloQP ), there are many, many peole who really want to play good Matches in SoloQP - and want to win that way . And all of them (us) get brutally frustrated when players simply "goofing around and having fun" ruin the Match for the rest of the Team . As well as getting frustrated by Players simply farming dmg., or padding stats .

Edited by Besh, 02 June 2018 - 04:13 AM.

[Asym]

NaniCat, on 01 June 2018 - 01:50 PM, said:

It reminds me of a quote by jiddu kirshnamurti; 'It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society'.

BINGO ! We have a winner!!!

Nothing can or will fix MWO until the population grows large enough to support "teams".....low populations "condense" everything that is good and bad... Bad being the most prevalent..... It's why retention is terrible.

We are what we've sown and now, there's little left but a shell of those who like MW but abhor what it has become.... 8x8 is no fix because if, 1x1 can't even work because the entire Arena FPS is not working, how could you expect anything larger to perform differently??? The quote is spot on..... We'd have to start completely over to heal before we could recover....

[Catnium]

Dragonporn, on 02 June 2018 - 01:45 AM, said:

Not in a slightest actually... Solo QP is all about goofing around and having fun. No personal offence intended, but It is a great mystery for me why people with highly competitive mindset even enter solo QP, what do you expect? Top notch teamplay? Not happening. We have Group Queue, we have Faction Play, and lately we have Solaris, which is amazing for e-peen competition to boast how good you are afterwards. Anybody seriously want for solo play to turn into this?...

no But i'd like it if ppl started to play MWO instead of Mech turret online..

no body knows wtf a brawl is anymore